Re: [Mailman-Users] FAQ 4.12 What about Verp as applicable to sending to a relay host
Hello, Ralf, Mark,. We running now, thanks for the help. I will send out on my large list over the w/e (splitting the membership just in case) and will report how the throttle patch performed. But on a small list we are up, up, away. I'll look at verp next, don't want to have to tweak anything else so if it's a standalone item to tick on/off as it were, then I'll do that. Lots of nice questions on your list, with nicer answers. no rtfm all the time. Anne On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:22:54 +0200 Ralf Hildebrandt ralf.hildebra...@charite.de wrote: * Anne Wainwright anothera...@fables.co.za: Hello, Not that I am going to switch on Verp, but ... I read this, and interesting sums there too. I note that Defaults.py still carries SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 500 despite good conclusions in the FAQ based upon a statistical analysis of a large mailing list user base that the sweet spot is likely between 2 and 5. Well, it doesn't hurt. Let the MTA do the sorting and splitting. In my case where I am relaying to the isp's smtp server I indeed do have all my posts to one domain and so I presume that a larger value could be appropriate? Yes. Given that they limit me to 100 recipients per smtp session it would seem that I should adjust this downwards to 100 (in mm_cfg.py) to avoid breaking this rule. Yep. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
Hello! After the local timezone rules change the mailman sends messages with incorrect timezone in Date: header. Acording to the Russian Govnerment statement Russia is abolishing daylight saving time from this year. E.g. Moscow time (which daylight saving was GMT+4) will now has standard GMT+4. To adopt this we install new timezone calculation rules (tzdata-2011l). Now the mailman thinks that timezone is GMT+3. All the mailman-generated messages (moderation requests, errors, reminders and so on) looks like the time is +1h in future. E.g. Return-Path: mailman-boun...@domain.ru Received: from gate2.solvo.ru (gate2-vlan10.solvo.ru [172.16.80.4]) by hippo.solvo.ru (Cyrus v2.2.12-Invoca-RPM-2.2.12-8.1.RHEL4) with LMTPA; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:42 +0400 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from gate2.solvo.ru (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gate2.solvo.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADCC52E802D for listmas...@solvo.ru; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:42 +0400 (MSK) Subject: =?koi8-r?b?7sXEz9PUwdfMxc7Oz8UgydrXxd3FzsnFIM/CIM/bycLLxQ==?= From: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru To: all-ow...@solvo.ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary0258393610== Message-ID: mailman.20.1319111680.3169@solvo.ru Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:40 +0300 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: a...@solvo.ru X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 List-Id: =?koi8-r?b?6c7Gz9LNwcPJ0SDEzNEg19PFyCDTz9TS1cTOycvP1yDz7+z37w==?= all.solvo.ru X-List-Administrivia: yes Errors-To: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru Sender: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru Local time in mailman logs are still correct: /var/log/mailman/smtp: Oct 20 15:54:42 2011 (3173) mailman.20.1319111680.3169@solvo.ru smtp to all for 1 recips, completed in 0.102 seconds /var/log/mailman/bounce: Oct 20 15:54:40 2011 (3169) all: bounce message w/no discernable addresses: 35292842.20111020185...@87.subnet125-163-181.speedy.telkom.net. Oct 20 15:54:40 2011 (3169) all: forwarding unrecognized, message-id: 35292842.20111020185...@87.subnet125-163-181.speedy.telkom.net.id We are using mailman for years without such a problem before. All other software run at this host now have the correct understanding the local time as MSK standard time = GMT+4 [root@gate2 mailman]# date '+%Z %::z' MSK +04:00:00 I found the similar mailman bug #266314 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266314) but it was years ago and was fixed at version 2.1.7. Now we run mailman 2.1.14 with Python 2.4.3 under Oracle Enterprise Linux 5 (a clone of RHEL5) -- Regards, Ivan Kuznetsov SOLVO ltd St.Petersburg, Russia -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
On 10/20/2011 7:09 AM, Ivan Kuznetsov wrote: After the local timezone rules change the mailman sends messages with incorrect timezone in Date: header. [...] Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:40 +0300 [...] We are using mailman for years without such a problem before. All other software run at this host now have the correct understanding the local time as MSK standard time = GMT+4 [root@gate2 mailman]# date '+%Z %::z' MSK +04:00:00 This is the part that I find strange. Mailman uses Python's email.Utils.formatdate(localtime=1) function to get the date/time string for the Date header. This in turn uses Python's time module to get the actual time and timezone values and that in turn uses C library functions to get them from the underlying OS. See http://docs.python.org/library/time.html. Try seeing in an interactive Python session what things like email.Utils.formatdate(localtime=1), time.localtime(), time.daylight and time.altzone return. If they are not returning what you expect, this is a Python issue. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Ivan Kuznetsov wrote: After the local timezone rules change the mailman sends messages with incorrect timezone in Date: header. Mailman itself knows nothing about timezones. Anything to do with timezones being incorrect is almost certainly an Operating System issue, although it could be a library problem. Received: from gate2.solvo.ru (gate2-vlan10.solvo.ru [172.16.80.4]) by hippo.solvo.ru (Cyrus v2.2.12-Invoca-RPM-2.2.12-8.1.RHEL4) with LMTPA; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:42 +0400 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from gate2.solvo.ru (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gate2.solvo.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADCC52E802D for listmas...@solvo.ru; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:42 +0400 (MSK) These two headers were put on the message by the MTAs, and note that time the time is 15:54 with a timezone offset of +0400. Subject: =?koi8-r?b?7sXEz9PUwdfMxc7Oz8UgydrXxd3FzsnFIM/CIM/bycLLxQ==?= From: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru To: all-ow...@solvo.ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary0258393610== Message-ID: mailman.20.1319111680.3169@solvo.ru Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:40 +0300 This date header may have been put on by the local MTA on this machine, or it may have been put on by a Python library, but I don't think it was put on by Mailman itself. Note that the time is still 15:54, but the timezone is wrong. Local time in mailman logs are still correct: /var/log/mailman/smtp: Oct 20 15:54:42 2011 (3173) mailman.20.1319111680.3169@solvo.ru smtp to all for 1 recips, completed in 0.102 seconds /var/log/mailman/bounce: Oct 20 15:54:40 2011 (3169) all: bounce message w/no discernable addresses: 35292842.20111020185...@87.subnet125-163-181.speedy.telkom.net. Oct 20 15:54:40 2011 (3169) all: forwarding unrecognized, message-id: 35292842.20111020185...@87.subnet125-163-181.speedy.telkom.net.id These are all references to 15:54, but there is no mention of timezone, so it's impossible to know if they are in reference to +0300 or +0400. We are using mailman for years without such a problem before. All other software run at this host now have the correct understanding the local time as MSK standard time = GMT+4 [root@gate2 mailman]# date '+%Z %::z' MSK +04:00:00 Okay, so the OS has been updated with an appropriate time zone definition. That's good to know. I found the similar mailman bug #266314 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266314) but it was years ago and was fixed at version 2.1.7. Now we run mailman 2.1.14 with Python 2.4.3 under Oracle Enterprise Linux 5 (a clone of RHEL5) Sometimes, problems like this are as simple as a program reading the timezone definition on startup, and then never reading it again. Have you tried stopping and restarting Mailman, in order to get it (and the various Python libraries we use) to read the updated timezone definition? -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
* Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org: On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:09 AM, Ivan Kuznetsov wrote: After the local timezone rules change the mailman sends messages with incorrect timezone in Date: header. Mailman itself knows nothing about timezones. Anything to do with timezones being incorrect is almost certainly an Operating System issue, although it could be a library problem. Received: from gate2.solvo.ru (gate2-vlan10.solvo.ru [172.16.80.4]) by hippo.solvo.ru (Cyrus v2.2.12-Invoca-RPM-2.2.12-8.1.RHEL4) with LMTPA; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:42 +0400 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from gate2.solvo.ru (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gate2.solvo.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADCC52E802D for listmas...@solvo.ru; Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:42 +0400 (MSK) These two headers were put on the message by the MTAs, and note that time the time is 15:54 with a timezone offset of +0400. Subject: =?koi8-r?b?7sXEz9PUwdfMxc7Oz8UgydrXxd3FzsnFIM/CIM/bycLLxQ==?= From: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru To: all-ow...@solvo.ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary0258393610== Message-ID: mailman.20.1319111680.3169@solvo.ru Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:54:40 +0300 This date header may have been put on by the local MTA on this machine, or it may have been put on by a Python library, but I don't think it was put on by Mailman itself. Note that the time is still 15:54, but the timezone is wrong. Since it's From: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru To: all-ow...@solvo.ru isn't that a mailman generated approval mail? -- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebra...@charite.de | http://www.charite.de -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Footer as attachment in Outlook problem.
On Oct 20, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: I don't think Mailman 3 will be any different in this respect. The issue is as presented in the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9. Mailman 3 will work exactly the same way, for all the reasons Mark described. AFAICT, there's really no better alternative. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
On Oct 21, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: This date header may have been put on by the local MTA on this machine, or it may have been put on by a Python library, but I don't think it was put on by Mailman itself. Note that the time is still 15:54, but the timezone is wrong. Since it's From: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru To: all-ow...@solvo.ru isn't that a mailman generated approval mail? The message may have been generated by Mailman, but I am not 100% certain that Mailman always puts on whatever headers are required for a message, such as the Date header -- many MTAs will add headers like this for people/programs who generate messages to be sent but don't include them. Moreover, even if that header were put on before the message is handed to the MTA, I don't know that Mailman itself would be putting that header on -- I suspect that Mailman would use a Python library to do that, as opposed to doing it internally. -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
* Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org: On Oct 21, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: This date header may have been put on by the local MTA on this machine, or it may have been put on by a Python library, but I don't think it was put on by Mailman itself. Note that the time is still 15:54, but the timezone is wrong. Since it's From: mailman-boun...@solvo.ru To: all-ow...@solvo.ru isn't that a mailman generated approval mail? The message may have been generated by Mailman, but I am not 100% certain that Mailman always puts on whatever headers are required for a message, such as the Date header -- many MTAs will add headers like this for people/programs who generate messages to be sent but don't include them. Yes, indeed. If postfix is involved, copies of the TZ info IN THE CHROOT may be old! Thus issue a postfix check command. Moreover, even if that header were put on before the message is handed to the MTA, I don't know that Mailman itself would be putting that header on -- I suspect that Mailman would use a Python library to do that, as opposed to doing it internally. -- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebra...@charite.de | http://www.charite.de -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Incorrect timezone in mailman-generated messages
Brad Knowles wrote: Moreover, even if that header were put on before the message is handed to the MTA, I don't know that Mailman itself would be putting that header on -- I suspect that Mailman would use a Python library to do that, as opposed to doing it internally. In the case of this particular message, Mailman creates the Date: header using the Python library functions and data indicated in my reply at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2011-October/072389.html. If these Python routines, particularly email.Utils.formatdate(localtime=1), are returning the expected results, this is almost certainly, as Brad suggested previously, a case of needing to restart Mailman to refresh internally stored data. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
I host a list for about 700 autoharp musical enthusiasts on Mailman 2.1.12. The subscribers are by and large somewhat elderly and non techie, and to most of them an explanation of the difference between HTML-enhanced email and plain text email would be unintelligible geek-speak. I recently received the following email from one of the subscribers: Scrubbed messages as they appear in my cyberpluckers DIGESTS: This type of problem is perhaps a bit over 6 months old, and evidently is caused by the manner in which some people have tried to attach their message to their cyberplucker posting. How can this problem be resolved?THANKS ... Drew Smith *** Message: 25 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:42:29 -0700 From: foo bar ... To: cyberpluck...@autoharp.org Subject: Re: [CP] Intro Message-ID: a0ffed34-525e-40a5-88c6-4b78dbef2df8@blur Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.autoharp.org/mailman/blah/blah//attachment.html ... snip ... other examples I took a look at the list archive and indeed the email appears in the archives also with only a link to the attachment, which is the HTML-enhanced message, visible as HTML code. There's no plain text version in the archive. I explained to the subscriber, and to the list admins, that this (and similar) posts were probably HTML-only posts, and that, absent a plain text rendering in a multipart email, the list server had no way to generate a plain text version, and that including multiple HTML-enhanced emails in a digest was problematic and not going to work very well, if at all. The list admins are aware that plain text is the appropriate format for posting to a mailing list, but subscribers come and go from this list, and as I said, many don't understand such things, and it seems that there are a number of mail programs out there which will generate an HTML-enhanced email without an accompanying MIME text/plain version. The list is configured with mime_is_default_digest set to MIME, which I assume sends digests with each post as a separate attachment (I've never subscribed to the digest for this list, so I don't really know). I had assumed that this might address this problem, but apparently not. One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I rather dislike HTML-enhanced email (to put it gently). There's no fixed standard for it, and what renders one way in one mail reader renders some other way in another mail reader, and it confuses the hell out of list servers. But people will use it, increasingly it seems, and insist on doing so, so somehow this kind of problem needs to be dealt with. -- Lindsay Haisley | Real programmers use butterflies FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
