Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Debian/GNU]

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Hash: SHA256

hi,

On 2015-09-22 12:26, treb...@tuxfamily.org wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Reading at this discussion, I'd just want to mention that dispite
> this package is called "hydrogen-drumkits", it does install other
> stuffs as well, demo songs in circumstances.

the circumstances have become less.

afaict, the new upstream (that is: drumkits gathered via the RSS
feed), will contain a single demo song.
and this is *before* filtering out data due to license issues.

mfgasdr
IOhannes
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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[trebmuh]

Hi all,

Reading at this discussion, I'd just want to mention that dispite this 
package is called "hydrogen-drumkits", it does install other stuffs as 
well, demo songs in circumstances.


If you guys are working around this package, it might be the right time 
to switch it to "hydrogen-data-extra" or something around this line.


Leaving this thought to your wisdom now,
best,
Olivier

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Debian/GNU]

On 2015-09-14 23:09, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
> Hi Alessio, Jonas, others
> 
> I jumped in to updating hydrogen-drumkits package ... I updated it and
> realize that it is really huge! :(  ... About 250MB
> I think something so big doesn't make sense distribute in debian.
> 
> What we should do with it?
> 
> 1) Ask the upstream to make just "basic" collection of drumkits ( e.g.
> about 20MB ) package it and let users download whatever they want from
> internet?
> 
> 2) Create package which wouldn't contain drumkits itselfs but only
> script for downloading and installing drumkits?
> 
> 3) Other solution?
> 

so after i tried contacting artemiy pavlov (the first address already
bounced; the 2nd has now bounced as well but at least with a hint where
to contact him), i re-read the hydrogen homeage, where it say:

> These libraries can also be downloaded and installed from within
> Hydrogen.  Goto Instruments -> Import Library.  Hit Update list',
> select the library you want to install and click the Download and
> install' button.

launching up hydrogen and doing as suggested, indeed reveals that the
hydrogen itself already comes with all the downloader functionality
suggested by you in (2).

this basically lowers my energy a bit to provide anything complicated
within Debian...

the incestive to keep a hydrogen-drumkits around would be
i think that main reason for a Debian package would be to provide a
verified-to-be-free set of drumkits and to provide a drumkit to start
playing with (but i think the latter is not so important as hydrogen can
also use GM - which sounds cheesy but provides at least something)

fgmasdr
IOhannes

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-21 14:44 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU)
:
> On 2015-09-14 23:09, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>> Hi Alessio, Jonas, others
>>
>> I jumped in to updating hydrogen-drumkits package ... I updated it and
>> realize that it is really huge! :(  ... About 250MB
>> I think something so big doesn't make sense distribute in debian.
>>
>> What we should do with it?
>>
>> 1) Ask the upstream to make just "basic" collection of drumkits ( e.g.
>> about 20MB ) package it and let users download whatever they want from
>> internet?
>>
>> 2) Create package which wouldn't contain drumkits itselfs but only
>> script for downloading and installing drumkits?
>>
>> 3) Other solution?
>>
>
> so after i tried contacting artemiy pavlov (the first address already
> bounced; the 2nd has now bounced as well but at least with a hint where
> to contact him), i re-read the hydrogen homeage, where it say:

Yes contacting all this authors and asking for clarifying copyright
would be awful task :(

>> These libraries can also be downloaded and installed from within
>> Hydrogen.  Goto Instruments -> Import Library.  Hit Update list',
>> select the library you want to install and click the Download and
>> install' button.

I didn't know about this function myself ... :(

> launching up hydrogen and doing as suggested, indeed reveals that the
> hydrogen itself already comes with all the downloader functionality
> suggested by you in (2).
>
> this basically lowers my energy a bit to provide anything complicated
> within Debian...
>
> the incestive to keep a hydrogen-drumkits around would be
> i think that main reason for a Debian package would be to provide a
> verified-to-be-free set of drumkits and to provide a drumkit to start
> playing with (but i think the latter is not so important as hydrogen can
> also use GM - which sounds cheesy but provides at least something)

hydrogen package ( not hydrogen-drumkits ) install GMkit and TR808EmulationKit
So the question is ... Do we need hydrogen-drumkits package?
I think it would be great to have it but not in given circumstances
... problematic copyrights and hardly contactable authors.
Also upstream tarball release would make things easer.

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting IOhannes m zmölnig (2015-09-16 13:22:26)
> however, i took a look at the package, and here is what i think:

Great work!


> - licensing is a *complete* mess.

> the DKF is kind enough to provide licensing information provided by 
> the authors (in a free form; so not really machine parsable)
> cool.
> the bad news is, that many drumkit package creators did not care about 
> licenses, and just left the license field empty :-(

If copyright holders provide contact info, then please consider kindly 
informing them that their choice of licensing sadly render their nice 
works incompatible with redistribution by Debian, referring them to some 
web page listing DSG-compatible licenses (but, I recommend, don't try to 
elaborate further on why Debian DFSG is good for the World or which 
license they should pick among the compatible ones).


 - Jonas

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 09/16/2015 07:37 PM, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>> which leaves only these drumkits that have a free license (mostly some
>> CC; and 'Lightning1024' says "Free!" whatever this means)
>>  - DeathMetal (sf)
>>  - circAfrique v4
>>  - BJA_Pacific
>>  - The Black Pearl 1.0
>>  - Gimme A Hand 1.0
>>  - rumpf_kit_z01_gm
>>  - belofilms.com - AC-Guitar-Strums (flac)
>>  - Audiophob
>>  - Drumkit excepcional
>>  - Lightning1024
>>  - Denon CRB-90
> 
> These are also probably problematic as Fabian mentioned :(
> 

of these kits, only "Lightning1024" is unclear.
the rest is more specific, e.g. "GPL" or "CC-BY 3.0".

unfortunately, a few of the explicitely granted licenses are DFSG
incompatible, e.g. CC-BY (without any version), which i think we must
not assume to mean "CC-BY v3" but rather "CC-BY v1" or similar.

gfsadr
IOhannes




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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-17 9:59 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig :
> On 09/16/2015 07:37 PM, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>>> which leaves only these drumkits that have a free license (mostly some
>>> CC; and 'Lightning1024' says "Free!" whatever this means)
>>>  - DeathMetal (sf)
>>>  - circAfrique v4
>>>  - BJA_Pacific
>>>  - The Black Pearl 1.0
>>>  - Gimme A Hand 1.0
>>>  - rumpf_kit_z01_gm
>>>  - belofilms.com - AC-Guitar-Strums (flac)
>>>  - Audiophob
>>>  - Drumkit excepcional
>>>  - Lightning1024
>>>  - Denon CRB-90
>>
>> These are also probably problematic as Fabian mentioned :(
>>
>
> of these kits, only "Lightning1024" is unclear.
> the rest is more specific, e.g. "GPL" or "CC-BY 3.0".
>
> unfortunately, a few of the explicitely granted licenses are DFSG
> incompatible, e.g. CC-BY (without any version), which i think we must
> not assume to mean "CC-BY v3" but rather "CC-BY v1" or similar.

So what we need now is to tune get-orig-source script to get only DFSG
compatible drumkits?
Can we also get copyright file in in orig tar ball?

Sorry this is bit unusual packaging work and I am not very skilled
with scripts :(
So I am not very hepful

regards

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Debian/GNU]

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On 2015-09-17 10:34, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
> So what we need now is to tune get-orig-source script to get only
> DFSG compatible drumkits? Can we also get copyright file in in orig
> tar ball?

the main problem i see here, is that the license fields are free-form,
so it's hard for a script to decide what is DFSG compatible and what not
.

a possible solution for this would be to make the script interactive.

something like the following (with "maintainer" being the user who
runs the script)
for each available drumkit do:
- - check if drumkit is already part of the package (probably comparing
hashes of the downloaded file). if so, skip it
- - check if the drumkit has a license attached. if not, skip it
- - present the drumkit information to the maintainer (in a readable form)
- - ask the maintainer to manually accept the drumkit (after they have
examined the license)
- - skip or add the new drumkit, based on maintainer's decision.

> 
> Sorry this is bit unusual packaging work and I am not very skilled 
> with scripts :(

well, writing the script is one thing.
first we have to come up with a set of well defined tasks :-)


fgar
IOhannes

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-15 9:27 GMT+02:00 Jaromír Mikeš :
> 2015-09-15 9:05 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU) 
> :
>> On 2015-09-15 00:20, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>>> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I
>>> am assuming that size still can rise in future. Also I believe that
>>> usually user using just couple of favorite drumkits and not need
>>> all of of them maybe. So I am thinking to safe user disk space
>>> too.
>>
>> how about splitting into multiple binary packages of reasonable size
>> and content?
>> i guess a single-package per drumkit is overkill; but probably
>> grouping the kits by vendor (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-roland") or
>> function (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-acoustic") will help people select
>> only the drumkits they need.

Ok ... if we thinking packaging these files what about licensing?
There is already one bug opened ...

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=773246

IOhannes can you suggest complete list of packages we could provide
and containing drumkits?

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Fabian Greffrath]

Am Mittwoch, den 16.09.2015, 13:22 +0200 schrieb IOhannes m zmölnig:
> CC; and 'Lightning1024' says "Free!" whatever this means)

If it doesn't explicitely grant rights, it doesn't qualify. :(

 - Fabian


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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 09/16/2015 10:41 AM, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
> Ok ... if we thinking packaging these files what about licensing?
> There is already one bug opened ...
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=773246
> 
> IOhannes can you suggest complete list of packages we could provide
> and containing drumkits?
> 


i don't use them, so i'm probably not the best person to ask :-)

however, i took a look at the package, and here is what i think:

- first of all, upstream doesn't "release" (in a formal release-process)
drumkits at all.
i don't think that attaching the hydrogen version number to the drumkits
is a very good idea in the first place (sticking with the date of the
snapshot is saner)


- upstream doesn't even provide a tarball for the drumkits.
instead we (Debian) create a fake tarball by aggregating all downloads
published via their drumkit feed (DKF).

that's a slightly awkward situation.


- the DKF provides some extra information (author, description,
license,...).
since the upstream tarball is synthesized anyhow, this information could
be used to synthesize debian (binary) packages as well: just provide a
single drumkit per package¹.

the biggest problem i see here, is that this makes the number of Debian
packages variable.
otoh, if we are not doing too many snapshots and keep old drumkits (not
published by upstream any more), then the work should be reasonable.

i *think* this should be done semi-automatically, using a script
downloading the drumkits and providing a debian/control stub that has
all the information updated.




- licensing is a *complete* mess.
the DKF is kind enough to provide licensing information provided by the
authors (in a free form; so not really machine parsable)
cool.
the bad news is, that many drumkit package creators did not care about
licenses, and just left the license field empty :-(

worse, some drumkits have a license text like:
 "Do not redistribute or publish the inluded samples."
here's a list:
 - GSCW Kit 1 (Flac edition)
 - GSCW Kit 2 (Flac edition)
 - Roland_MC-307_CR78
 - Roland_MC-307_TR-606
 - Roland_MC-307_TR-808_
 - Roland_MC-307_TR-909
 - Roland_MC-307_Techno1


which leaves only these drumkits that have a free license (mostly some
CC; and 'Lightning1024' says "Free!" whatever this means)
 - DeathMetal (sf)
 - circAfrique v4
 - BJA_Pacific
 - The Black Pearl 1.0
 - Gimme A Hand 1.0
 - rumpf_kit_z01_gm
 - belofilms.com - AC-Guitar-Strums (flac)
 - Audiophob
 - Drumkit excepcional
 - Lightning1024
 - Denon CRB-90

that's still 194MB, but having a closer look reveals, that 136MB of
those are consumed by "belofilms.com - AC-Guitar-Strums (flac)".
which is not a proper drumkit at all, so i guess it could be factored
out into a separate binary package.
i haven't checked the rest, but if they are all "drum" kits, then we
might want to put them into a single package (~58MB).
or split them into something like:
- hydrogen-drumkits-classical
- hydrogen-drumkits-ethno (or hydrogen-drumkits-percussion)
- hydrogen-drumkits-electro
- hydrogen-drumkits-effects


mgfdsr
IOhannes


¹ yes, even though i said that was overkill in my last mail.



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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-16 13:22 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig :
> On 09/16/2015 10:41 AM, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>> Ok ... if we thinking packaging these files what about licensing?
>> There is already one bug opened ...
>>
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=773246
>>
>> IOhannes can you suggest complete list of packages we could provide
>> and containing drumkits?

> - first of all, upstream doesn't "release" (in a formal release-process)
> drumkits at all.
> i don't think that attaching the hydrogen version number to the drumkits
> is a very good idea in the first place (sticking with the date of the
> snapshot is saner)

Make sense to me.

> - upstream doesn't even provide a tarball for the drumkits.
> instead we (Debian) create a fake tarball by aggregating all downloads
> published via their drumkit feed (DKF).
>
> that's a slightly awkward situation.
>
>
> - the DKF provides some extra information (author, description,
> license,...).
> since the upstream tarball is synthesized anyhow, this information could
> be used to synthesize debian (binary) packages as well: just provide a
> single drumkit per package¹.

Ok

> the biggest problem i see here, is that this makes the number of Debian
> packages variable.
> otoh, if we are not doing too many snapshots and keep old drumkits (not
> published by upstream any more), then the work should be reasonable.
>
> i *think* this should be done semi-automatically, using a script
> downloading the drumkits and providing a debian/control stub that has
> all the information updated.

That would be great if doable.

> - licensing is a *complete* mess.
> the DKF is kind enough to provide licensing information provided by the
> authors (in a free form; so not really machine parsable)
> cool.
> the bad news is, that many drumkit package creators did not care about
> licenses, and just left the license field empty :-(

That's what i was afraid :(

> worse, some drumkits have a license text like:
>  "Do not redistribute or publish the inluded samples."
> here's a list:
>  - GSCW Kit 1 (Flac edition)
>  - GSCW Kit 2 (Flac edition)
>  - Roland_MC-307_CR78
>  - Roland_MC-307_TR-606
>  - Roland_MC-307_TR-808_
>  - Roland_MC-307_TR-909
>  - Roland_MC-307_Techno1

:(

> which leaves only these drumkits that have a free license (mostly some
> CC; and 'Lightning1024' says "Free!" whatever this means)
>  - DeathMetal (sf)
>  - circAfrique v4
>  - BJA_Pacific
>  - The Black Pearl 1.0
>  - Gimme A Hand 1.0
>  - rumpf_kit_z01_gm
>  - belofilms.com - AC-Guitar-Strums (flac)
>  - Audiophob
>  - Drumkit excepcional
>  - Lightning1024
>  - Denon CRB-90

These are also probably problematic as Fabian mentioned :(

> that's still 194MB, but having a closer look reveals, that 136MB of
> those are consumed by "belofilms.com - AC-Guitar-Strums (flac)".
> which is not a proper drumkit at all, so i guess it could be factored
> out into a separate binary package.
> i haven't checked the rest, but if they are all "drum" kits, then we
> might want to put them into a single package (~58MB).
> or split them into something like:
> - hydrogen-drumkits-classical
> - hydrogen-drumkits-ethno (or hydrogen-drumkits-percussion)
> - hydrogen-drumkits-electro
> - hydrogen-drumkits-effects

I like these categories

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-15 9:05 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU) :
> On 2015-09-15 00:20, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I
>> am assuming that size still can rise in future. Also I believe that
>> usually user using just couple of favorite drumkits and not need
>> all of of them maybe. So I am thinking to safe user disk space
>> too.
>
> how about splitting into multiple binary packages of reasonable size
> and content?
> i guess a single-package per drumkit is overkill; but probably
> grouping the kits by vendor (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-roland") or
> function (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-acoustic") will help people select
> only the drumkits they need.

That's not bad idea. But I also think to safe packager's load ;)
As I have long list of packages to maintain and there are often lack
man power in team I tend minimize packaging work.

What about ask upstream to include 2 demo_songs and 2 drumkits in hydrogen?
Then provide hydrogen-data package with this "songs and drumkits"
and add link for downloading other files in description of package.

Hopefully simple for user and easy to maintain

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-15 09:27:59)
> 2015-09-15 9:05 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU) 
> :
> > On 2015-09-15 00:20, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
> >> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I
> >> am assuming that size still can rise in future. Also I believe that
> >> usually user using just couple of favorite drumkits and not need
> >> all of of them maybe. So I am thinking to safe user disk space
> >> too.
> >
> > how about splitting into multiple binary packages of reasonable size
> > and content?
> > i guess a single-package per drumkit is overkill; but probably
> > grouping the kits by vendor (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-roland") or
> > function (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-acoustic") will help people select
> > only the drumkits they need.
> 
> That's not bad idea. But I also think to safe packager's load ;)
> As I have long list of packages to maintain and there are often lack
> man power in team I tend minimize packaging work.
> 
> What about ask upstream to include 2 demo_songs and 2 drumkits in hydrogen?
> Then provide hydrogen-data package with this "songs and drumkits"
> and add link for downloading other files in description of package.
> 
> Hopefully simple for user and easy to maintain

If you mean encourage upstream to offer out-of-band download and then 
_not_ package those drumkits for Debian to "safe packager's load" then I 
find that a very bad idea: Our users should be able to use our package 
management system APT to install and keep up-todate their code, not do 
custom house-keeping for drumkits - see e.g. how optional GIMP palettes 
is shipped as gimp-data-extras (not a URL referenced in a README or a 
script fetching from such URL).

 - Jonas

-- 
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 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Debian/GNU]

On 2015-09-15 00:20, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I
> am assuming that size still can rise in future. Also I believe that
> usually user using just couple of favorite drumkits and not need
> all of of them maybe. So I am thinking to safe user disk space
> too.

how about splitting into multiple binary packages of reasonable size
and content?
i guess a single-package per drumkit is overkill; but probably
grouping the kits by vendor (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-roland") or
function (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-acoustic") will help people select
only the drumkits they need.

fgmasdr
IOhannes

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-15 0:32 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
> Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-15 00:20:54)
>> 2015-09-14 23:58 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
>>> Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-14 23:09:20)
 I jumped in to updating hydrogen-drumkits package ... I updated it
 and realize that it is really huge! :( ... About 250MB
 I think something so big doesn't make sense distribute in debian.

 What we should do with it?

 1) Ask the upstream to make just "basic" collection of drumkits (
 e.g. about 20MB ) package it and let users download whatever they
 want from internet?

 2) Create package which wouldn't contain drumkits itselfs but only
 script for downloading and installing drumkits?

 3) Other solution?
>>>
>>> Would be nice to ask upstream if possible to _also_ provide a smaller
>>> subset, but 250MB is not strictly too big - see e.g.
>>> alien-arena-data.
>>
>> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I am
>> assuming that size still can rise in future.
>> Also I believe that usually user using just couple of favorite
>> drumkits and not need all of of them maybe.
>> So I am thinking to safe user disk space too.
>
> Seems we agree.

Yes, but before taking any action I would like to hear from Alessio
(current hydrogen-drumkits uploader) too.

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Debian/GNU]

On 2015-09-15 10:15, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
> 2015-09-15 9:46 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
>> If you mean encourage upstream to offer out-of-band download and then
>> _not_ package those drumkits for Debian to "safe packager's load" then I
>> find that a very bad idea: Our users should be able to use our package
>> management system APT to install and keep up-todate their code, not do
>> custom house-keeping for drumkits -

+1

> 
> What I am suggesting is not unusual in digital audio world. ( Win and
> Mac - I am working on these regularly)

that's mainly because the poor win and mac users don't have Debian.

i don't think it is an argument.

> Everybody wants to have different sound than his musician colleague ;)
> (personal experience)

hmm, no: everybody wants to have the TR-808

famsdr
IOhannes


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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-15 9:46 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
> Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-15 09:27:59)
>> 2015-09-15 9:05 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU) 
>> :
>> > On 2015-09-15 00:20, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>> >> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I
>> >> am assuming that size still can rise in future. Also I believe that
>> >> usually user using just couple of favorite drumkits and not need
>> >> all of of them maybe. So I am thinking to safe user disk space
>> >> too.
>> >
>> > how about splitting into multiple binary packages of reasonable size
>> > and content?
>> > i guess a single-package per drumkit is overkill; but probably
>> > grouping the kits by vendor (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-roland") or
>> > function (e.g. "hydrogen-drumkits-acoustic") will help people select
>> > only the drumkits they need.
>>
>> That's not bad idea. But I also think to safe packager's load ;)
>> As I have long list of packages to maintain and there are often lack
>> man power in team I tend minimize packaging work.
>>
>> What about ask upstream to include 2 demo_songs and 2 drumkits in hydrogen?
>> Then provide hydrogen-data package with this "songs and drumkits"
>> and add link for downloading other files in description of package.
>>
>> Hopefully simple for user and easy to maintain
>
> If you mean encourage upstream to offer out-of-band download and then
> _not_ package those drumkits for Debian to "safe packager's load" then I
> find that a very bad idea: Our users should be able to use our package
> management system APT to install and keep up-todate their code, not do
> custom house-keeping for drumkits -

What I am suggesting is not unusual in digital audio world. ( Win and
Mac - I am working on these regularly)
You have software from somewhere and you are downloading data from
other sources.
Like sample banks for sampler or impulsed for convolion reverb ... it
is every day life in sound engineering.

And even if we will provide all drumkits from "hydrogen" source people
will want "something special" and search
internet to dowload it from somewhere.

Everybody wants to have different sound than his musician colleague ;)
(personal experience)

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-15 11:57 GMT+02:00 IOhannes m zmölnig (Debian/GNU)
:
> On 2015-09-15 10:15, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
>> 2015-09-15 9:46 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
>>> If you mean encourage upstream to offer out-of-band download and then
>>> _not_ package those drumkits for Debian to "safe packager's load" then I
>>> find that a very bad idea: Our users should be able to use our package
>>> management system APT to install and keep up-todate their code, not do
>>> custom house-keeping for drumkits -
>
> +1

I am not convinced that "create 'drumkit' dir download there whatever
you want and use it" is discomfort for users
Also I think that drumkit files are more "filing" than really code

>> What I am suggesting is not unusual in digital audio world. ( Win and
>> Mac - I am working on these regularly)
>
> that's mainly because the poor win and mac users don't have Debian.
> i don't think it is an argument.

I have done this many times on Debian too and I don't think that I am
poor user because of it.
It wasn't meant as argument just wanted to show what is practise
elsewhere and didn't found it bad neither saw complains from others.

>> Everybody wants to have different sound than his musician colleague ;)
>> (personal experience)
>
> hmm, no: everybody wants to have the TR-808

Ok ;) Than we have a candidate for default drumkit?

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-14 23:09:20)
> Hi Alessio, Jonas, others
> 
> I jumped in to updating hydrogen-drumkits package ... I updated it and
> realize that it is really huge! :(  ... About 250MB
> I think something so big doesn't make sense distribute in debian.
> 
> What we should do with it?
> 
> 1) Ask the upstream to make just "basic" collection of drumkits ( e.g.
> about 20MB ) package it and let users download whatever they want from
> internet?
> 
> 2) Create package which wouldn't contain drumkits itselfs but only
> script for downloading and installing drumkits?
> 
> 3) Other solution?

Would be nice to ask upstream if possible to _also_ provide a smaller 
subset, but 250MB is not strictly too big - see e.g. alien-arena-data.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jaromír Mikeš]

2015-09-14 23:58 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
> Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-14 23:09:20)
>> Hi Alessio, Jonas, others
>>
>> I jumped in to updating hydrogen-drumkits package ... I updated it and
>> realize that it is really huge! :(  ... About 250MB
>> I think something so big doesn't make sense distribute in debian.
>>
>> What we should do with it?
>>
>> 1) Ask the upstream to make just "basic" collection of drumkits ( e.g.
>> about 20MB ) package it and let users download whatever they want from
>> internet?
>>
>> 2) Create package which wouldn't contain drumkits itselfs but only
>> script for downloading and installing drumkits?
>>
>> 3) Other solution?
>
> Would be nice to ask upstream if possible to _also_ provide a smaller
> subset, but 250MB is not strictly too big - see e.g. alien-arena-data.

Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I am
assuming that size still can rise in future.
Also I believe that usually user using just couple of favorite
drumkits and not need all of of them maybe.
So I am thinking to safe user disk space too.

mira

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Re: hydrogen-drumkits package

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-15 00:20:54)
> 2015-09-14 23:58 GMT+02:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
>> Quoting Jaromír Mikeš (2015-09-14 23:09:20)
>>> I jumped in to updating hydrogen-drumkits package ... I updated it 
>>> and realize that it is really huge! :( ... About 250MB
>>> I think something so big doesn't make sense distribute in debian.
>>>
>>> What we should do with it?
>>>
>>> 1) Ask the upstream to make just "basic" collection of drumkits ( 
>>> e.g. about 20MB ) package it and let users download whatever they 
>>> want from internet?
>>>
>>> 2) Create package which wouldn't contain drumkits itselfs but only 
>>> script for downloading and installing drumkits?
>>>
>>> 3) Other solution?
>>
>> Would be nice to ask upstream if possible to _also_ provide a smaller 
>> subset, but 250MB is not strictly too big - see e.g. 
>> alien-arena-data.
>
> Yes but latest debian release from 2007 30MB now in 2015 250MB I am
> assuming that size still can rise in future.
> Also I believe that usually user using just couple of favorite
> drumkits and not need all of of them maybe.
> So I am thinking to safe user disk space too.

Seems we agree.

 - Jonas

-- 
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 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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