[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah  added the comment:

Closing in favor of #41324, which adds just the most important
functions.

--
resolution:  -> duplicate
stage:  -> resolved
status: open -> closed
superseder:  -> Add a minimal decimal capsule API

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Paul Ganssle]

Change by Paul Ganssle :


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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

libmpdec has always been a separate project, predating the integration
into Python-3.3.  Before the Python-3.3 release, Jim Jewett suggested
a cleaner library/module separation (and he was right, it made the
code much more readable).

Then distributors wanted --with-system-libmpdec, so here we are.


Let's discuss the _decimal capsule API in #15237.


As for the libmpdec symbols: I agree it is somewhat unclean to
do this on the Python side.

For *some* functions it is also tricky (but by no means impossible)
to use them directly and expect the same results as from _decimal.

Maybe a solution for numba is to just assume --with-system-libmpdec.
libmpdec is extremely easy to package, distributions just have to
ensure that their Python version matches the libmpdec version.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Of course Windows is a problem. I do not know how to implement
--with-system-libmpdec on Windows.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

For the record, we have realized that pure C code brought less than a 2x 
speedup compared to straightforward Python code, so cdecimal support has become 
a low-priority concern for Numba. For the curious, the C code is from 
libmpdec's own benchmark (Web site seems down at the moment) and the Python 
code is here: https://gist.github.com/pitrou/9eb2a5651b99f2e3c4ce

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Martin v . Löwis]

Martin v. Löwis added the comment:

I'd like to focus this issue a bit. Antoine originally proposed that non-Python 
code might want to access libmpdec. However, given that this is now a separate 
project (as it seems), I don't think it's Python's task to make the API 
available. If it is a separate library really, you shouldn't need to link to 
Python in order to use it. IOW, the solution should be to use the system 
libmpdec.

So the focus should be on other Python C modules that want to access decimal 
objects. Are there precedents of such modules? What API features do they 
actually need?

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Alexander Belopolsky]

Changes by Alexander Belopolsky alexander.belopol...@gmail.com:


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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Larry Hastings]

Larry Hastings added the comment:

I think this is a duplicate of #15237.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Well, we have two issues now:

  1) Make the _decimal API available via capsule.

  2) Make the libmpdec symbols public (i.e. remove GCC visibility push(hidden)
 from Modules/_decimal/libmpdec/mpdecimal.h.


The question here is now whether 2) is safe. Note that active symbol
hiding has always only worked for gcc (but I think on Windows and AIX
the symbols are hidden by default anyway).


A third option is to make both the _decimal and libmpdec APIs available
via capsule, which is a lot of work (300 functions). Also people would
likely want the API to work on 2.7, which would mean that large parts
of the cdecimal on PyPI (which uses the incompatible libmpdec-2.3)
would need to be rewritten.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

 large parts of the cdecimal on PyPI (which uses the incompatible 
 libmpdec-2.3) would need to be rewritten.

Ah, so it has an incompatible ABI? That will complicate things a bit :-)

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

 Note that active symbol hiding has always only worked for gcc (but I think on 
 Windows and AIX the symbols are hidden by default anyway).

Does it mean a separate Windows and AIX solution should be found?
I think if we can't make the mpd symbols available in a cross-platform way, the 
incentive starts getting much lower :-)

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
  large parts of the cdecimal on PyPI (which uses the incompatible 
  libmpdec-2.3) would need to be rewritten.

 Ah, so it has an incompatible ABI? That will complicate things a bit :-)

Yes, cdecimal on PyPI is slower, has a different ABI, uses libmpdec-2.3,
has subtle differences in the context handling, cannot subclass the
context, ... ;)

I think a common C API for 2.7 is only possible with a real backport.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Le 03/09/2014 18:33, Stefan Krah a écrit :
 
 
 Yes, cdecimal on PyPI is slower, has a different ABI, uses libmpdec-2.3,
 has subtle differences in the context handling, cannot subclass the
 context, ... ;)
 
 I think a common C API for 2.7 is only possible with a real backport.

Ok, so let's ignore that and focus on 3.5?

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Sure, if there are people who write python3-only C modules (I can't think
of one right now).

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

If there aren't today, there will be in a few years time, and they'll be glad 
they can support Python 3.5.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Larry Hastings]

Larry Hastings added the comment:

Are there any other modules where the capsule API works in both CPython and 
PyPy?  I thought capsule APIs were decidedly implementation-specific.

Not that I'm not for it in theory.  But this is some crazy uncharted 
hyper-compatibility territory we're talking about here.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

The compatibility discussion was for the cdecimal-2.3 package that's
hosted on PyPI and used for Python 2.7.  IOW, will people use a capsule
API that's Python-3 only?

Compatibility with pypy would be esoteric indeed. :)

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Changes by Stefan Krah stefan-use...@bytereef.org:


Removed file: http://bugs.python.org/file36446/module_get_symbol.diff

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Thanks, Stefan.  So everyone agrees that Capsule is the right way for the API.


Then this issue is about making the libmpdec symbols public.  I've tried
to produce a collision with duplicate symbols as outlined in msg176486,
but I haven't been successful (on Linux).

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Behnel]

Stefan Behnel added the comment:

 Stefan (Behnel), could you comment on the strategy that you had in mind?
 Is it similar to module_get_symbol.diff or entirely different?

I agree with Antoine that a Capsule would work better here (and yes, the 
performance problem of capsules is only with cases where they need to be 
unpacked frequently). Here is our current API for datetime as an example:

https://github.com/cython/cython/blob/e6c13f8922d6406f64f2578f5a0041e1615291a3/Cython/Includes/cpython/datetime.pxd

It's not great (it would be possible to make it look more OOP-ish), but it's 
simple and quite easy to use. The top of the file contains the necessary header 
declarations, and the rest are inline C wrapper functions that basically just 
rename the existing capsule C-API functions and macros to make them easily and 
nicely callable from Cython code without having to care about the Capsule and 
its list of C functions.

The declarations for _cdecimal would use a similar scheme and additionally 
include the libmpdec header declarations so that users could work with the 
underlying C data directly with a single (c-)import. That would then require 
the libmpdec symbols to be available, though, also when it's linked internally 
into _cdecimal.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
 Who are those people? #16745 was opened by you :-)

MvL, in #4555 (msg176486).

  Platform specific maybe, but no hack:  I was thinking about storing the DSO
  handle in the PyModuleObject struct and add functions to lookup symbols.
  I'm attaching a diff for Linux -- It has been a while, but I'm rather 
  certain
  that the corresponding scheme also worked on Windows (can't test now, my
  Windows VM is defunct).
 
 How does it work? I've tried to dlopen() and then dlsym() the _decimal 
 file manually, it wouldn't work for private (e.g. mpd) symbols.

Yes, the symbols would need to be public, see module_get_symbol.diff.

 
  That would leave the usual troublemakers AIX etc., which have sketchy 
  support
  anyway.
 
 That sounds rather worrying. How about OS X? Why would that whole scheme 
 be better than a capsule?

I'm not sure about OS X, but I would be surprised if it did not work.

To my limited knowledge, Capsules are slow, see also here (the penultimate
paragraph):

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2013-March/124481.html

Stefan (Behnel), could you comment on the strategy that you had in mind?
Is it similar to module_get_symbol.diff or entirely different?

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Le 24/08/2014 04:56, Stefan Krah a écrit :

 I'm not sure about OS X, but I would be surprised if it did not work.

 To my limited knowledge, Capsules are slow, see also here (the penultimate
 paragraph):

They are slow if you have to lookup and unwrap a capsule every time you 
use it. But the way it would work for _decimal (and the way it already 
works for _datetime), AFAIK, would be different: you would look up the 
capsule API structure once and then simply dereference function 
pointers from that structure.

You can actually take a look at Include/datetime.h and see if the 
approach would work. See especially:

/* Define global variable for the C API and a macro for setting it. */
static PyDateTime_CAPI *PyDateTimeAPI = NULL;

#define PyDateTime_IMPORT \
 PyDateTimeAPI = (PyDateTime_CAPI 
*)PyCapsule_Import(PyDateTime_CAPSULE_NAME, 0)

which encourages a once-in-a-process-lifetime API lookup pattern.
I don't think a hand-coded dlsym()-based approach can be any 
significantly faster.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Ah yes, the array of function pointers is directly accessible. I did not look
close enough -- reading the word spam 100x in the docs always makes me skim
the text. ;)

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

 MvL, in #4555 (msg176486).

Ok, I'm cc'ing Martin then :-)
Note RTLD_LOCAL seems to be the default with dlopen(). Now I don't know how 
that behaves when you have a chained library loading, e.g.:

  Apache -- dlopen(Python dll) -- dlopen(_decimal dll)

_decimal is an interesting case, since AFAIK with other C extensions it isn't 
really interesting to access the underlying C library, but with _decimal not 
being able to access libmpdec would force _decimal to duplicate a large part of 
the libmpdec API with a PyDec prefix added in front of it.

(which means that, perhaps, the answer is to make the mpd_ prefix configurable 
with a #define?)

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
 (which means that, perhaps, the answer is to make the mpd_ prefix 
 configurable with a #define?)

I don't know 100% what you have in mind, but Debian and Arch already ship
--with-system-libmpdec, so only the mpd_* functions would be available.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Le 24/08/2014 11:11, Stefan Krah a écrit :

 Antoine Pitrou rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:
 (which means that, perhaps, the answer is to make the mpd_ prefix 
 configurable with a #define?)

 I don't know 100% what you have in mind, but Debian and Arch already ship
 --with-system-libmpdec, so only the mpd_* functions would be available.

Ah... that probably kills the idea then. I was thinking in the context 
of a private-built libmpdec and had forgotten about that possibility.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

 That's what I meant. The issue here is that Python's libmpdec is not exposed
 to third-party code at all. Also there should probably be a (thin?) API to get
 at the underlying mpdec object from a cdecimal PyObject (apologies for the 
 poor
 wording, I'm actually not acquainted with the libmpdec APIs).


People were asking for libmpdec symbols to be hidden (#16745). It's easy to
revert, just a couple of pragmas in the headers.



 As for the Capsule method, well, at least it would be better than nothing
 (or than any platform-specific hack).

Platform specific maybe, but no hack:  I was thinking about storing the DSO
handle in the PyModuleObject struct and add functions to lookup symbols.  
I'm attaching a diff for Linux -- It has been a while, but I'm rather certain 
that the corresponding scheme also worked on Windows (can't test now, my 
Windows VM is defunct).

That would leave the usual troublemakers AIX etc., which have sketchy support
anyway.

Of course getting all symbols for a module should be done in one separate
file (_decimal_api.c), the diff is just a demonstration.



 Relatedly, is the libmpdec ABI stable?

Yes, starting from 2.4.0.


 That is, if I build a separate libmpdec, can I expect it to handle cdecimal's
 innards fine, or will there be problems?

You need to initialize libmpdec in the exact same way as in _decimal.c.
Generally it should be fine (though I'm not thrilled by the idea :), but
I suspect there could be locale problems on Windows with a second libmpdec.

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Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file36446/module_get_symbol.diff

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Le 23/08/2014 16:42, Stefan Krah a écrit :

 That's what I meant. The issue here is that Python's libmpdec is not exposed
 to third-party code at all. Also there should probably be a (thin?) API to 
 get
 at the underlying mpdec object from a cdecimal PyObject (apologies for the 
 poor
 wording, I'm actually not acquainted with the libmpdec APIs).

 People were asking for libmpdec symbols to be hidden (#16745). It's easy to
 revert, just a couple of pragmas in the headers.

Who are those people? #16745 was opened by you :-)

 Platform specific maybe, but no hack:  I was thinking about storing the DSO
 handle in the PyModuleObject struct and add functions to lookup symbols.
 I'm attaching a diff for Linux -- It has been a while, but I'm rather certain
 that the corresponding scheme also worked on Windows (can't test now, my
 Windows VM is defunct).

How does it work? I've tried to dlopen() and then dlsym() the _decimal 
file manually, it wouldn't work for private (e.g. mpd) symbols.

 That would leave the usual troublemakers AIX etc., which have sketchy support
 anyway.

That sounds rather worrying. How about OS X? Why would that whole scheme 
be better than a capsule?

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Behnel]

Stefan Behnel added the comment:

 (for the record, the context is that we would like to support decimal objects 
 efficiently in Numba)

Same for Cython, although I guess we wouldn't do more than shipping the 
necessary declarations and (likely) also enable auto-coercion between the 
libmpdec decimal type (struct?) and CPython's decimal type, in the same way 
that we do it for byte strings.

Thus, a public header file with the necessary type checking and 
packing/unpacking C-API functions would be nice and also sufficient for now.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr:


--
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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

  3) It's not clear whether users would not be served better by
 using functions from libmpdec directly (much faster,
 probably less error handling).

That's what I meant. The issue here is that Python's libmpdec is not exposed to 
third-party code at all. Also there should probably be a (thin?) API to get at 
the underlying mpdec object from a cdecimal PyObject (apologies for the poor 
wording, I'm actually not acquainted with the libmpdec APIs).

As for the Capsule method, well, at least it would be better than nothing (or 
than any platform-specific hack).

  2) I would not like to spend time on it if we go ahead and
 make decimal a builtin (double effort).

I haven't heard any consensus on that yet :-)

(for the record, the context is that we would like to support decimal objects 
efficiently in Numba)

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Note that you could expose a C API even if decimal didn't become built-in, see 
Include/datetime.h for example.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

Antoine Pitrou added the comment:

Relatedly, is the libmpdec ABI stable? That is, if I build a separate libmpdec, 
can I expect it to handle cdecimal's innards fine, or will there be problems?

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Changes by Stefan Krah stefan-use...@bytereef.org:


Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file36378/api-demo[1].c

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Stefan Krah]

Stefan Krah added the comment:

I'm a little unsure what to do with the API, see also #15237:

  1) I'm not too fond of the Capsule method, especially because
 it *seems* possible to get at the symbols directly on Linux
 and Windows (provided that they aren't static of course).

  2) I would not like to spend time on it if we go ahead and
 make decimal a builtin (double effort).

  3) It's not clear whether users would not be served better by
 using functions from libmpdec directly (much faster,
 probably less error handling).


For 3) I've attached a draft that illustrates the issue.

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[issue22194] access to cdecimal / libmpdec API

[Antoine Pitrou]

New submission from Antoine Pitrou:

Currently cdecimal exports no C API that I know of, and it makes sure the 
libmpdec symbols are kept private in the .so file. It would be nice for 
external C code (or, in general, non-Python code) to be able to access cdecimal 
objects, and make operations on them, without the huge overhead of the regular 
C Python API.

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messages: 225297
nosy: pitrou, skrah
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: access to cdecimal / libmpdec API
type: enhancement

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