[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #41 from Mihnea-Costin Grigore  ---
The discussion about file systems like ZFS/BTRFS/etc. and their various
snapshot mechanisms is off-topic relative to this feature request, since they
are very different technologies used for different purposes.

rsync is used commonly to synchronise at the *file level* between very
different operating systems -- from Linux to Windows, from macOS to Linux, etc.
It also has multiple features to allow filtering and selecting files within the
source and destination directories, thus only synchronising a subset of files.
We need a solution that works with the flexibility of rsync itself, and
snapshots (useful as they are) do not fit that at all.

This would be a very useful feature to have as part of rsync, made evident by
the many requests both here and on other discussion forums over the past almost
20 (!) years. Can we rather discuss what the blockers are for the existing
patches? What stops them from inclusion -- is it quality, functionality,
compatibility, test coverage, something else? Working to fix that and making
the already existing patches acceptable for inclusion would appear to be the
most constructive course of action, rather than deflecting the request.

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--- Comment #39 from andy  ---
> This feature request is so old it has lost relavence because btrfs/zfs/etc 
> are more optimal backup solutions than rsync.

Funny I am doing exactly this, but I came to rsync looking for a backup for
when ZFS fails. Many consider zfs/btrfs/snapshots as "not a backup". There are
many things that can go wrong that you will need real backups to save you:
- accidentally deleted pool/datasets/snapshots
- bug in replication tool
- user error
- ZFS bug

It should be considered a certainty that one of those will happen at some
point, and the ZFS snapshots won't save you.

> With zfs one can even have encrypted backups without the backup server ever 
> seeing the key or un-encrypted data.

I love this idea, but in practice I'm finding there is significant risk with
the state of ZFS encryption. There are so many active bugs related to
encryption. I'm in the middle of implementing a replication system based on raw
encrypted snapshot replication between multiple systems, trusted and untrusted.
But the new bugs I've run into along the way, along with the previously known
ones, makes me really feel the need for a solid non-ZFS filesystem backup. And
also a low complexity tool, not dependent on complicated replication
tools/scripts.

In looking for rename/move solutions with rsync, one issue I can foresee with
inode tracking is that I find it is very common to cross filesystem boundaries.
Anything tracking inodes would need to track the device as well, though the
device number from the stat struct doesn't seem to be enough in the case of ZFS
to trace back to what filesystem it actually comes from. 

Reading the unison documentation, it seems that for linux they track the combo
of inode & last modification time to detect moves/renames. I wonder if some
kind of collision is possible under a rare multi-filesystem edge case. Inodes
aren't unique across multiple filesystems.

Restic is another option that handles moves/renames/dedup automatically, just
at the cost of CPU time for encrypting/hashing. Probably worth considering borg
and friends at that point.

Well, maybe the cost of rsync's inefficiency here is worth it's simplicity. But
it would be a great feature to have.

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--- Comment #38 from Claudius Ellsel  ---
This basically is some personal preference. I know that I can do this on btrfs
(which is used on the system I want to back up from), also pretty easy with
tools like snapper. Maybe it would be feasible to do that comparison everytime
before creating a new manual snapshot, which then acts a bit like a "commit". I
basically want to have one stage at which I know that I have checked the
changes made. Ideally that is at the backup stage, so the backup only has
checked changes.

I'll think about that method, maybe even converting my backup drive to btrfs as
well.

Back on topic, this feature still comes handy in many situations, imho. There
might be workarounds, but those might not be that feasible or wanted. The
reality of this not being merged soon might force users to turn to workarounds
(which might also have other advantages) though.

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--- Comment #37 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
The btrfs equivalent is a bit more rough but (link for rename);

#./btrfs-snapshots-diff.py -sb -p /media/btrfs/v_1/s_1 -c /media/btrfs/v_1/s_2
| grep -E path=. | grep -v utimes | tail -n +2
link;path=fileB;path_link=fileC
unlink;path=fileB

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--- Comment #36 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Claudius Ellsel from comment #35)
> This is going off-topic

On such an old bug with modern workarouds I think it's worth talking about.

> backup drive is NTFS currently, which would complicate things probably.

Using a COW FS would require you you use said FS (not NTFS ... you can put
files systems inside each other with losetup but it's not ideal) If you really
don't want to use another filesystem then the options are git or git-annex or
that wrapper script I cooked up, or there is likely some backup software with
the functionality baked in. 

> > If you want to review changes before backup
> [and] detect moved files

you can with a COW FS like this (R for renamed); 

# zfs diff pool/volume@snap1 pool/volume@snap2
M   /pool/volume/
R   /pool/volume/fileB -> /pool/volume/fileC

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--- Comment #35 from Claudius Ellsel  ---
(In reply to elatllat from comment #34)
>Yes you can easily access files on a COW-FS backup; it's a file system, that's 
>>what it's for.

This is going off-topic, but my backup drive is NTFS currently, which would
complicate things probably.

>If you want to review changes before backup you can just diff or rsync 
>--dry-run >snapshot/a snapshot/b locally before sending it.

Unfortunately due to rsync's current inability to detect moved files that would
result in exactly the same problem I currently have: Not being able to know
whether a file was deleted and another different one was created or whether it
is just the same file that was moved (or renamed).

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--- Comment #34 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Claudius Ellsel from comment #33)
Yes you can easily access files on a COW-FS backup; it's a file system, that's
what it's for.

If you want to review changes before backup you can just diff or rsync
--dry-run snapshot/a snapshot/b locally before sending it.

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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--- Comment #33 from Claudius Ellsel  ---
Hm, those backups won't work on file level, though afaik. Thus I cannot easily
access files on a backup drive for example. Also I want to use this as some
kind of confirm stage a bit like committing with git where I review all changes
to files and confirm them when transferring them to the backup.

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--- Comment #32 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Claudius Ellsel from comment #31)
Yes any COW FS with "send/receive" will have inherent rename handaling, and
will be faster than rsync because the diffs are inherent. With zfs one can even
have encrypted backups without the backup server ever seeing the key or
un-encrypted data.
COW is not good for databases, VM imgs, etc but that's not where rename
detection is useful either.

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--- Comment #31 from Claudius Ellsel  ---
To me and others it still seems relevant.

I have to admit though that I haven't looked much into other solutions for
backups like btrfs send/receive commands. I suppose that were the ones you
meant? Note that simply using btrfs and creating snapshots can be barely seen
as a backup. I am rather talking about backing up data to external media
(ideally off site, but that is a different story).

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--- Comment #30 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
This feature request is so old it has lost relavence because btrfs/zfs/etc are
more optimal backup solutions than rsync.

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--- Comment #29 from Claudius Ellsel  ---
As another motivation for this, I use rsync for backups and would like to be
able to see whether files have just been renamed or were deleted and some
others newly created (which currently cannot be distinguished). That way I can
make sure nothing was modified by mistake when backing up my data by going
through the output when using dry run before. Basically I want to replace
FreeFileSync that has this ability.

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Claudius Ellsel  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||claudius.ell...@live.de

--- Comment #28 from Claudius Ellsel  ---
What is the current state of this? Am I correct that this is still not
available in official released versions?

Is this still the right place for tracking it or should it be moved to the
GitHub tracker?

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #27 from Wolfgang Hamann  ---
Hi,

I recently ran into the problem that a large file set got renamed and then
re-sent. I tried to fix after the fact, so I went the obvious way of comparing
sizes and modtimes on the destination and calculate checksums for potential
matches. I would have preferred to use a list of inode numbers and files for
the old and new file sets instead...

So I wonder whether a different approach to the problem could make sense:
a) the filelist contains inode numbers, and after a successful rsync, a file is
generated in the target dir listing inodes and names of all files transferred
b) when receiving to the same dir, if a target file does not exist, the inode
in the filelist is used to look up the previous filename. If it exists and
matches in size and modtime, it could be hardlinked. Deleting files from the
target that are no longer in the source would take care of the old file. When
the sync is completed without error, the list of inodes and file names would be
updated
c) when receiving in link-dest mode, the file in the old dir would be consulted
for a potential match, and the new list would be created in the target dir

Of course this only makes sense if inode numbers are reliable, as on all
standard local file systems or nfs. I do not know whether the new storage
arenas preserve inodes. It is obvious that the same inode may appear more than
once in a source file set

Regards
Wolfgang

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #26 from Ben RUBSON  ---
### What's the diff between --fuzzy and --detect-renamed ?

If I understand correctly, --fuzzy looks only in destination folder, for either
a file that has an identical size and modified-time, or a similarly-named file,
and uses it as a basis file.
Whereas --detect-renamed looks everywhere for files that either match in size &
modify-time, or match in size & checksum (when --checksum is used), and uses
each match as a basis file.
So the main difference is destination_folder_only vs everywhere, am I right ?

### Some questions :

# --fuzzy can be used twice to look in --link-dest folders, useful when
backing-up to an empty directory. What about --detect-renamed ?

# Don't these 2 options kill memory when backing-up many many files
(furthermore when also looking in --link-dest folders) ? Don't they maintain
in-memory list of files ?

# Will these options only do their job when needed (need to find a basis file),
or every time ?

# Do these options impact destination performance, or do they benefit from
already-done scans ? For example, will -yy scan all --link-dest dirs (disk IO
intensive) even if perhaps it's not needed ?

# About --detect-renamed, let's imagine foo/A has been foud in bar/. Will it be
smart enough to directly search for foo/B in bar/, instead of restarting a
whole lookup ?

# These 2 options use found file as a basis file. Let's imagine the found file
totally matches, and we are using --link-dest. Could we think about linking the
file instead of copying it ?

# Last, do you have plans for --detect-renamed onto the trunk ?

Thank you very much for this deep-analysis !

Ben

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Re: [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

[Andrey Gursky]

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 22:20:16 +
samba-b...@samba.org wrote:

> https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294
> 
> --- Comment #23 from dajo...@gmail.com ---
> Looking for this capability prior to entering it as an enhancement request
> myself, I found everything here and basically have the same use case.  My
> version is that I am creating a regular backup of logs from many servers'
> services onto a single box, and doing so with rsync.  Some of those services
> still do the .1, .2, .3 file rotation, which makes for a lot of needless work,
> especially when these are 100+ MiB files.  It would be great if rsync could
> detect this to just transfer the new file and rename the old ninety-nine (or
> however-many).

Maybe unison could handle such renames better?

Regards,
Andrey

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #25 from Andrey Gursky  ---
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 22:20:16 +
samba-b...@samba.org wrote:

> https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294
> 
> --- Comment #23 from dajo...@gmail.com ---
> Looking for this capability prior to entering it as an enhancement request
> myself, I found everything here and basically have the same use case.  My
> version is that I am creating a regular backup of logs from many servers'
> services onto a single box, and doing so with rsync.  Some of those services
> still do the .1, .2, .3 file rotation, which makes for a lot of needless work,
> especially when these are 100+ MiB files.  It would be great if rsync could
> detect this to just transfer the new file and rename the old ninety-nine (or
> however-many).

Maybe unison could handle such renames better?

Regards,
Andrey

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #24 from Karl O. Pinc  ---
On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 22:20:16 +
samba-b...@samba.org wrote:

> https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294
> 
> --- Comment #23 from dajo...@gmail.com ---
> Looking for this capability prior to entering it as an enhancement
> request myself, I found everything here and basically have the same
> use case.  My version is that I am creating a regular backup of logs
> from many servers' services onto a single box, and doing so with
> rsync.  Some of those services still do the .1, .2, .3 file rotation,
> which makes for a lot of needless work, especially when these are
> 100+ MiB files.  It would be great if rsync could detect this to just
> transfer the new file and rename the old ninety-nine (or
> however-many).

It is not so hard to add the following to your logroate.conf.
Just saying.

# Add a date extension instead of just a number for rsync hardlinked
# backups. 
dateext
dateformat -%Y-%m-%d-%s

Karl 
Free Software:  "You don't pay back, you pay forward."
 -- Robert A. Heinlein

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #23 from dajo...@gmail.com ---
Looking for this capability prior to entering it as an enhancement request
myself, I found everything here and basically have the same use case.  My
version is that I am creating a regular backup of logs from many servers'
services onto a single box, and doing so with rsync.  Some of those services
still do the .1, .2, .3 file rotation, which makes for a lot of needless work,
especially when these are 100+ MiB files.  It would be great if rsync could
detect this to just transfer the new file and rename the old ninety-nine (or
however-many).

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Re: [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

[Joe]

Isn't this pretty much what specifying --fuzzy --fuzzy (twice) is
supposed to do?

Joe

On 01/03/2015 04:23 PM, samba-b...@samba.org wrote:
 https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

 --- Comment #22 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
 Wow 10 years.
 Maybe one reason this has not been implemented is there are other options. 
 For example I have been using a shell script as a wrapper to reduce the
 iteration of this bug, here is how it works:
 1) Create 2 lists of files; destination and source with the files sizes and
 path
 2) For each file that is in the destination but not the source
 3) Create a subset of the source list containing file of the same size
 4) If the subset  0 hash the destination file and each file in the source
 subset until a match is found
 5) Ensure the dir exists on the destination and move/rename the file.
 6) On some systems hash can be as expensive as re-transferring the file so I
 added an option to move the file if there was one match (only sometimes
 hashing), and another to skip if more(never hashing).

 Though as I am re-evaluating my backup strategy I am looking into git-annex 
 and
 other solutions.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_backup_software#Free_software


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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #22 from elatl...@gmail.com ---
Wow 10 years.
Maybe one reason this has not been implemented is there are other options. 
For example I have been using a shell script as a wrapper to reduce the
iteration of this bug, here is how it works:
1) Create 2 lists of files; destination and source with the files sizes and
path
2) For each file that is in the destination but not the source
3) Create a subset of the source list containing file of the same size
4) If the subset  0 hash the destination file and each file in the source
subset until a match is found
5) Ensure the dir exists on the destination and move/rename the file.
6) On some systems hash can be as expensive as re-transferring the file so I
added an option to move the file if there was one match (only sometimes
hashing), and another to skip if more(never hashing).

Though as I am re-evaluating my backup strategy I am looking into git-annex and
other solutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_backup_software#Free_software

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--- Comment #21 from Petr Pisar petr.pi...@atlas.cz 2014-06-02 16:47:06 UTC 
---
There is a bug #8847 in the patchset when partial-dir cannot be created. The
fix is described there.

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #20 from kevin.la...@gmail.com 2014-03-02 03:08:37 UTC ---
I've been playing with the --detect-renamed patch
https://git.samba.org/?p=rsync-patches.git;a=blob;f=detect-renamed.diff;h=c3e6e846eab437e56e25e2c334e292996ee84345;hb=master

I can't get seem it to work.  Does it rely on other patches?

Anyway, in a simple test, using -vv -a --detect-renamed I can messages about
found renamed, etc, but in a real test, after renaming large directories,
there is no speed up.  I can only surmise it's not actually renaming.

I have several applications where this would be a very handy feature to have. 
I don't mind using the patch, if could just get it to work...

Btw, I'm on Mac OS 10.9.2.

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #19 from Norman Freudenberg ko...@gmx.net 2014-01-04 22:56:00 UTC 
---
Hey as far I found out there are two patches which still note made it into the
last official release?
They are still buggy? 
Why didn't it made it to an official release? 
9 Years it quite a long time for a possible solution...

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[Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294

--- Comment #18 from bug me not b...@mailinator.com 2012-12-08 10:05:46 UTC 
---
Has this issue been abandoned? It's been a while...

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--- Comment #15 from bugzilla.samba@zmi.at  2011-02-04 02:50 CST ---
How to apply those 2 detect-renamed* patches? I did
git clone git://git.samba.org/rsync.git
and tried to
patch -p1 patches/detect-renamed.diff
but that doesn't succeed. Which version would I need to check out to get the
patches applied? Sorry, I don't know git.


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DO NOT REPLY [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294





--- Comment #16 from ma...@sonadresse.com  2011-02-04 10:22 CST ---
you don't need git to get the sources : http://samba.anu.edu.au/ftp/rsync/
and choose rsync-3.0.7.tar.gz and rsync-patches-3.0.7.tar.gz

Ben


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--- Comment #17 from bugzilla.samba@zmi.at  2011-02-04 13:43 CST ---
Damn, that was too easy ;-) Thanks a lot. I'll test the new detect-renamed*
patches now.


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DO NOT REPLY [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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--- Comment #14 from ma...@sonadresse.com  2011-01-29 02:10 CST ---
Hi Paul,
As mentionned previously, two patches have been developped (detect-renamed.diff
et detect-renamed-lax.diff) 
http://gitweb.samba.org/?p=rsync-patches.git;a=blob;f=detect-renamed.diff;h=5ba95b4eb1b5d0f79cd22719d56fdea72590f87f;hb=HEAD
http://gitweb.samba.org/?p=rsync-patches.git;a=blob;f=detect-renamed-lax.diff;h=4cd23bd4524662f1d0db0bcc90336a77d0bb61c9;hb=HEAD

If you want to use these patch on mac OSX, you will find hints here :
http://samba.2283325.n4.nabble.com/detect-renamed-for-mac-users-proposition-of-a-modification-td3209591.html

Ben


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DO NOT REPLY [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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--- Comment #11 from phil.ganc...@gmail.com  2010-10-28 00:31 CST ---
Here are some related discussions about this:

http://www.mail-archive.com/rsync@lists.samba.org/msg20283.html

http://markmail.org/message/kmazkprjvred2r5a


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DO NOT REPLY [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2294


way...@samba.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||bugzilla.samba@zmi.at




--- Comment #10 from way...@samba.org  2009-12-21 12:35 CST ---
*** Bug 6996 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***


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DO NOT REPLY [Bug 2294] Detect renamed files and handle by renaming instead of delete/re-send

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sha...@shahar-or.co.il changed:

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 CC||sha...@shahar-or.co.il




--- Comment #9 from sha...@shahar-or.co.il  2009-03-22 03:00 CST ---
Dear developers,

I'm interested in this feature so this is a reminder to whoever is involved in
this and particularly to Wayne.

Also, I've found the name of the program Unison in the context of this issue
twice on the mailing list.

Many blessings.


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--- Comment #8 from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-11-30 17:24 CST ---
(In reply to comment #5)
 Thanks.  This will be especially useful for log directories where logrotate is
 incrementing the filename number at each rotation period (httpd.10.gz -
 httpd.11.gz).

Since I mentioned this specific use case, I should comment that I recently
discovered the 'dateext' option to logrotate which provides a complete
workaround in this scenario (which rsync handles perfectly) and might be the
better solution for this case in general.

Back on topic, there's still great utility in detecting other rename cases, of
course (I often see big .iso's get renamed).  I have to admit to having tried
the patch, had trouble with short backups, and backed it out without making a
good note of specifics.  What would be generally useful here for reporting
problems against the patch?


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--- Comment #7 from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2007-10-10 16:09 CST ---
(In reply to comment #6)
 Is the patch not included in 2.6.9 or did I miss something?

Correct, --detect-renamed still exists as a patch; it is not in the main
version of rsync.

 Add-on question: does rsync switch off -z for .gz files in the affected
 directory?

Yes, by default, rsync exempts files with a number of suffixes (including .gz)
from -z.  Since rsync 3.0.0, you can customize the list of suffixes with
--skip-compress=LIST .


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[EMAIL PROTECTED] changed:

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--- Comment #6 from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2007-07-11 09:50 CST ---
I'm using rsync 2.6.9 to archive rotated log files to another machine, like
Bill wrote. I tried 

rsync -avzh --partial --fuzzy src dest

and

rsync -avzh --partial --delete --fuzzy --delete-after src dest

but both calls always copy all renamed/rotated log files. And of course the
files are still in the same directory after being rotated! The logs are very
large (several gigs) so it takes too long to be a valuable solution.
Is the patch not included in 2.6.9 or did I miss something?
Add-on question: does rsync switch off -z for .gz files in the affected
directory? I think that would be a good idea.


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--- Comment #5 from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2006-03-21 14:06 MST ---
Thanks.  This will be especially useful for log directories where logrotate is
incrementing the filename number at each rotation period (httpd.10.gz -
httpd.11.gz).


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--- Comment #4 from [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2006-02-07 07:25 MST ---
There is now a patch named detect_renamed.diff in the patches dir that
implements the basics of finding renamed files.  This will probably go onto the
trunk for the release after 2.6.7.


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--- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2005-02-13 22:24 ---
Note that the --fuzzy patch has made it into the CVS version.  It only looks for
renamed files in the same directory as the file being created, though, so it is
not a full solution to files being moved around in the hierarchy, or directory
names changing (that will require a pre-scan on the receiving side, which is not
currently done unless --delete was specified).

I'll leave this open for now as a suggestion for a more extensive rename 
detector.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] changed:

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 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED




--- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2005-02-12 14:49 ---
This is the basic idea behind fuzzy.diff in the patches dir.  It does not
currently try to find a basis-file match based on size and mtime (just
similarity of names), but I plan to extend it with that functionality when I fix
some of the patch's other minor problems (see the patch for a list of them).

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--- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED]  2005-02-11 01:58 ---
I totally agree this one. With this enhancement there would be no longer
unnecessary traffic when some user has moved / copy'ed a large directory (which
is really annoying).

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