[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
Hello, David, David, Markus, Jens, George I hope you don't mind that I included you in this thread which is about a new/enhanced standard to access scanners. At least I would like to have you informed, see the SANE2, time for a decision thread on http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2007-January/thread.html For basic information about SANE see http://www.sane-project.org/intro.html and for SANE2 see http://www.sane-project.org/sane2/ On Jan 8 21:49 Jon Chambers wrote (shortened): Quite a few manufacturers have written proprietary backends and therefore have considered and silently endorsed the original SANE spec (for example Dell released a SANE driver for the 1815dn MFP). Maybe they would provide some input if we asked them. Does anyone have any friends amongst the manufacturers that might be emailed? If a new (or enhanced) standard is to be set up, I recommend to ask the scanner manufacturers. From my communication with various manufacturers (mostly regarding printing) I know that one gets always friendly responses and after a few to and fro mails you know if a manufacturer is really interested or not. Then I recommend to simply ignore those who are not interested because only friendly mails without any real progress will only waste time. But on the other hand those manufacturers who are interested are very valuable and very helpful to get a wider range of vision about the whole stuff, for example: - How to deal with proprietary stuff? E.g. because of third-party license problems even a manufacturer may not be able to provide a driver which is completely free. - How to deal with the scanners in big and fat all-in-one printer-scanner-copiers with only direct network access? Usually there is no SANE driver needed because those devices can produce an image file (e.g. PDF) and send it via email but how can such a device be used via a usual scanner frontend? Obviously this may result further delays until the new standard is ready to use (which does not mean it must be 100% ready) but hopefully it makes sure that the new standard will not fail or may not be accepted by third-parties which would then make each their own weird obscure incompatible stuff. I think it would be better to accept some more delay and then get a really good new standard than an imperfect new standard. Now some mail contacts which I hope to be useful: Note that those may be not the exact right person to discuss scanner specific stuff but they are at least a good point to start because they know how free software works. Epson / Epson Avasys: Olaf Meeuwissen olaf.meeuwis...@avasys.jp Already well known on this list ;-) HP: Suffield David david.suffi...@hp.com In particular regarding HPLIP http://hplip.sourceforge.net/ the free software for HP printers and HP all-in-one devices (but not for HP stand-alone scanners). Kyocera / Kyocera Mita: David Chamberlin david.chamber...@ktd-kyocera.com Markus Brauer markus.bra...@ktde.de Sharp: Stark Jens jens.st...@seeg.sharp-eu.com Ricoh family (Ricoh, Gestetner, Infotec, Lanier, NRG, Savin): George Liu george@ussj.ricoh.com As far as I know Kyocera, Sharp, and Ricoh family do not provide small stand-alone desktop scanners but big and fat all-in-one printer-scanner-copiers (usually with direct network access). Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5 Mail: jsm...@suse.de 90409 Nuernberg, GermanyWWW: http://www.suse.de/
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
On Sunday 07 January 2007 20:04, Martin Owens wrote: Toy might want to look at Enlightened Absolutism; because democracy doesn't work for software development. to inefficient. full ack. [SNIPSNAP] I also think we should setup a more or less small group of developers who are willing to help Oliver to finish the sane2 standard. We might should setup a list of stuff that should also go into this new standard - this list should be more or less a whishlist, which means that some points may find their way into the standard, some not. Let's keep this list open for lets say 4 weeks. During this time the team around Oliver should be found and they could start with their work. I'd like to see different people with different focus within that team... The resulting standard then should be opened for some kind of discussion - but this time on the SANE-Standard list. Regarding SANE1, I think there's enough room for extensions currently... Apart from all of these standard discussions, our major problem is and probably will remain, that none of the scanner manufacturers supports us/SANE actively. My two cents Gerhard BTW: Oliver, I'm also willing to help you out.
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
Hi everybody,
I also think we should setup a more or less small
group of developers who are willing to help Oliver
to finish the sane2 standard. We might should setup
a list of stuff that should also go into this new
standard - this list should be more or less a whishlist,
which means that some points may find their way into
the standard, some not.
Let's keep this list open for lets say 4 weeks.
During this time the team around Oliver should
be found and they could start with their work.
reading this sane2 thread and seeing that some people have some quite
different views of how to proceed regarding openness of the discussion,
i wanted to suggest to use a WIKI page for holding some kind of wishlist as
Gerhard suggested, and another page for editing the document defining the
standard. This last one could be read only for everybody except for a
few 'editors'.
In this way even if the 'core' of the technical discussion and commits goes
among just a few people, everybody can 'monitor' the results and speak out
if they come with a brilliant or revolutionary idea ;-)
It is not necessary to have a finished ('written on stone') standard to
start coding, but it is also not wise to start coding (call it fork sane-1
or start from scratch, doesn't matter) without having a general idea of
how the API should look like...
My 2 cents...
Best wishes, Ariel
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:31:03 +0100 Julien BLACHE j...@jblache.org wrote: Alessandro Zummo azummo-li...@towertech.it wrote: A fork will inevitably lead to more features and that might as well turn into sane2. Or to an utter failure. You need to calm down and think this through. Henning told you that already, Oliver just told you that too. Are you going to start listening, or continue banging your head against the wall ? Julien, the problem is that sane2 hasn't happened in the last years and if things are not going to change it will not happen. The first draft I can see is dated in mid 2002. We are in 2007 now. Something must change and I see no signs that is is going to happen. I don't have any particular need for sane2 but nonetheless I'm trying to gather support for it. I'm trying to do things in a different way than before, to see if this can lead somewhere. Thinking and planning is surely important but code needs to be written from time to time. SANE2 is not so different that a forked SANE1 cannot evolve into. -- Best regards, Alessandro Zummo, Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy http://www.towertech.it
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Oliver Rauch wrote: [snip] The SANE2 standard is not finished, so it does not make sens to start coding SANE2. It would be a big mistake to start coding SANE2 at this point because the standard is not finished and will change. [snip] I spent a lot of time in the SANE2 standard proposal. It took me a lot of energie and time to work out this proposal, but the following infinite and partly useless discussion about SANE2 (some years ago) made me stop my work on it. your insistence on having a completed standard prior to coding is exactly what created your desire to stop. you gave those who disagreed with you the power to halt your development. i was not involved with sane 5 years ago when most of the discussions took place, but i daresay that if i had arrived on the scene and found that you personally had already started coding sane2 with modest consensus and a history of being flexible, i would have helped you. instead, we find ourselves staring at a standard that is outdated regarding many of the new ideas that have come along in the last 4 years, and any time someone tries to start up a discussion, they get told to hold their horses cause the standard is not done? in the absense of a strong leader to direct things (no torvalds here), i am willing to bet that we need some running code BEFORE the rough consensus :) The standard is not ready for coding, but we can finish it shortly, the major part is done. But it is only possible when we create a little group (3-5 backend and frontend programmers) that discuss and improve the standard proposal NON PUBLIC - or we will get the infinite discussion again. that is the most insulting suggestion that i have heard lately. only some people on this list are qualified for the continuing discussion of sane2? that the public only gets 1-2 weeks to comment? i am not nearly as good a programmer as you guys, but even i can see some need for changes to the standard draft. the fact that prior discussions got 'heated' (i dont know, i have not read them all) does not mean they will again. that is, as long as the folks who put time into the current draft are not afraid to see it change... allan -- so don't tell us it can't be done, putting down what you don't know. money isn't our god, integrity will free our souls - Max Cavalera
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
I think he meant that a small group of invested and motivated people would be able to make a lot faster progress rather than having to put every idea to a vote rather than saying that most people aren't qualified to participate. A republic vs. a democracy vs. benevolent dictatorship if you will ;-) On 1/6/07, m. allan noah an...@pfeiffer.edu wrote: On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Oliver Rauch wrote: [snip] The SANE2 standard is not finished, so it does not make sens to start coding SANE2. It would be a big mistake to start coding SANE2 at this point because the standard is not finished and will change. [snip] I spent a lot of time in the SANE2 standard proposal. It took me a lot of energie and time to work out this proposal, but the following infinite and partly useless discussion about SANE2 (some years ago) made me stop my work on it. your insistence on having a completed standard prior to coding is exactly what created your desire to stop. you gave those who disagreed with you the power to halt your development. i was not involved with sane 5 years ago when most of the discussions took place, but i daresay that if i had arrived on the scene and found that you personally had already started coding sane2 with modest consensus and a history of being flexible, i would have helped you. instead, we find ourselves staring at a standard that is outdated regarding many of the new ideas that have come along in the last 4 years, and any time someone tries to start up a discussion, they get told to hold their horses cause the standard is not done? in the absense of a strong leader to direct things (no torvalds here), i am willing to bet that we need some running code BEFORE the rough consensus :) The standard is not ready for coding, but we can finish it shortly, the major part is done. But it is only possible when we create a little group (3-5 backend and frontend programmers) that discuss and improve the standard proposal NON PUBLIC - or we will get the infinite discussion again. that is the most insulting suggestion that i have heard lately. only some people on this list are qualified for the continuing discussion of sane2? that the public only gets 1-2 weeks to comment? i am not nearly as good a programmer as you guys, but even i can see some need for changes to the standard draft. the fact that prior discussions got 'heated' (i dont know, i have not read them all) does not mean they will again. that is, as long as the folks who put time into the current draft are not afraid to see it change... allan -- so don't tell us it can't be done, putting down what you don't know. money isn't our god, integrity will free our souls - Max Cavalera -- sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject unsubscribe your_password to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
Hello sane developers, Some weeks ago I introduced (once again) the discussion about SANE future. Now is time to take action. The situation is that we have coders willing to implement the SANE2 standard (whatever this will be) for a bunch of backends but are missing the people required to revamp sanei, the build system and the frontends. The standard itself is not complete, but this is something that can be fixed. However, we already have lost too much time in this limbo. I would like to run a poll (suggestions for good poll web sites are accepted) asking user and devs what they think about the SANE future. The poll options will be: - Reopen development on SANE1 - Fork SANE1 - Wait SANE2 indefinitely I will gladly accept suggestions for other options as long as they are credible. i.e. Develop SANE2 will not be accepted unless it includes a list of developers that are going to make it happen. I'm sorry for being a bit rough, but time is passing by and we need to go somewhere. -- Best regards, Alessandro Zummo, Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy http://www.towertech.it
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
Am Samstag, 6. Januar 2007 16:19 schrieb Alessandro Zummo: The poll options will be: - Reopen development on SANE1 - Fork SANE1 - Wait SANE2 indefinitely The SANE2 standard is not finished, so it does not make sens to start coding SANE2. It would be a big mistake to start coding SANE2 at this point because the standard is not finished and will change. What should be done is: - continue SANE1 development and finish the SANE2-standard soon. I spent a lot of time in the SANE2 standard proposal. It took me a lot of energie and time to work out this proposal, but the following infinite and partly useless discussion about SANE2 (some years ago) made me stop my work on it. The standard is not ready for coding, but we can finish it shortly, the major part is done. But it is only possible when we create a little group (3-5 backend and frontend programmers) that discuss and improve the standard proposal NON PUBLIC - or we will get the infinite discussion again. The non-public discussion should take some (4-8) weeks and then the group should publish their improved SANE2-standard proposal. After that we can make a little discussion (1-2 weeks) about the improved proposal and give the group some time (1-2 weeks) to improve the proposal again based on the comments and suggestion. This way we could have finished the standard in about 8-12 weeks. After that we could start coding SANE2. And when this standard is worth to support it then there will be coders for sanei-code and for frontends. Best regards Oliver
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
Hello Alessandro Zummo, Hello sane developers, Some weeks ago I introduced (once again) the discussion about SANE future. Now is time to take action. The situation is that we have coders willing to implement the SANE2 standard (whatever this will be) for a bunch of backends but are missing the people required to revamp sanei, the build system and the frontends. The standard itself is not complete, but this is something that can be fixed. However, we already have lost too much time in this limbo. Not even a decade :) I would like to run a poll (suggestions for good poll web sites are accepted) asking user and devs what they think about the SANE future. The poll options will be: - Reopen development on SANE1 - Fork SANE1 - Wait SANE2 indefinitely Or evolve a fork of SANE1 into SANE2. I will gladly accept suggestions for other options as long as they are credible. i.e. Develop SANE2 will not be accepted unless it includes a list of developers that are going to make it happen. I'm sorry for being a bit rough, but time is passing by and we need to go somewhere. All it takes is a motivated person. I can provide a some of my time to help, but I cannot commit to much. I have found an e-mail I wrote a few years back, which remains so true to me: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2003-August/008482.html Frank.
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 17:09:08 +0100 Frank Zago s...@zago.net wrote: The poll options will be: - Reopen development on SANE1 - Fork SANE1 - Wait SANE2 indefinitely Or evolve a fork of SANE1 into SANE2. A fork will inevitably lead to more features and that might as well turn into sane2. I will gladly accept suggestions for other options as long as they are credible. i.e. Develop SANE2 will not be accepted unless it includes a list of developers that are going to make it happen. I'm sorry for being a bit rough, but time is passing by and we need to go somewhere. All it takes is a motivated person. I can provide a some of my time to help, but I cannot commit to much. Even a small amount is appreciated ;) I'd be happy to see an improvement in the build system.. you maybe can help on that. I have found an e-mail I wrote a few years back, which remains so true to me: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2003-August/008482.html so true. -- Best regards, Alessandro Zummo, Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy http://www.towertech.it
[sane-devel] SANE2, time for a decision
Am Samstag, 6. Januar 2007 20:39 schrieben Sie: This way we could have finished the standard in about 8-12 weeks. After that we could start coding SANE2. And when this standard is worth to support it then there will be coders for sanei-code and for frontends. I do agree on the timeframe, but don't think we can find devs this way. The people who were interested has already posted in this list, I don't think there are more left. 1) We do not need to convert all backends from SANE1 to SANE2, a SANE2 frontend can and should support SANE1 and SANE2 backends. 2) we have some developers that publicy told that they will support some sane-backends for SANE2. There will be a lot more that will work on it when the work has begun. There will be several developers who will support SANE2 but they don?t want to promise it in the moment and so they don`t shout out loud that they will work on it. But there are lot that will work on SANE2 - I am sure. The most important thing is to get a SANE2 test backend and a SANE2 compatible frontend, otherwise noone will be able to use a SANE2 backend. I will make xsane SANE2 compatible - may be not with the highest priority, so it will take some time, but I will work on it - when the SANE2 standard is worth to be supported. I am sure there will be several developpers that convert scanimage and xscanimage, and we will see how soon quiteinsane, kooka etc. will be made SANE2 compatible. What we need is a consensus that we have a SANE2 standard that all (or most of the) active developers can accept. But I also can say that I will not support the SANE2 standard when we get the same infinite sensless and aggressive discussion we had some years ago. Best regards Oliver
