[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Rick Matsuda]

Maybe they can install solid vertical bulkheads along the length of the tables 
spaced at 10 to 12-feet between the bulkheads. 
These would slow the progression of any fire along the length of the tables and 
force the heat out from under the tables to activate the overhead sprinklers 
quicker. 
Rick Matsuda 

> On May 13, 2024, at 6:40 AM, Steve Leyton  wrote:
> 
> 
> All:
> 
> I was just approved by NFPA Standards Council to represent AFSA on the 420.   
> I do not yet have a copy of the first draft (it’s not available on the 420 
> web page or through free access), but I’ve requested and will look over the 
> fire protection systems design criteria, which I believe consists of nothing 
> tangible at this moment.  
>  
> Since my firm is located in SoCal, we’ve done several grows and each one has 
> been different.   We’ve designed for an open warehouse with fixed lighting 
> mounts that simply go up and down.  We’ve had to contend with a fixture 
> that’s about 4’ wide and can be moved up/down/left/right.   We’ve done 
> two-tier grows and three-tier grows and we’ve also dealt with the pre-fab 
> grow rooms.   Within those grow rooms we’ve seen fixed tables and the sliding 
> ones alluded to in this thread.   To say it’s the Wild West out here is an 
> understatement. 
>  
> Especially in CA, many fire officials have simply hit the HPS button and 
> called it a 24’ (three tiers of mature plants) of Class 3 or 4 on racks in 
> the open rooms, but I have issues with that since mature plants are 85% 
> water.   The growing medium that is fast becoming industry standard is Class 
> A material (rock wool), it’s kept wet, and doesn’t require a container, so 
> the commodity ISN’T that hazardous.   What complicates things is the presence 
> of the solid shelving, and that gets even more complicated by the sliding 
> fixtures that can be nested up to four across, which is a 16’ wide solid 
> obstruction in some grow rooms, and sometimes there are two or three of those 
> shelving levels.  
>  
> I don’t have any specific answers right now but I am hopeful that we can 
> point the code development conversation down a reality-based path, that being 
> the fact that this commodity isn’t all that hazardous (well, if the munchies 
> aren’t considered a hazard), and the shelving (which is plastic or polymer 
> composite) makes up a very small percentage of the overall volume of the 
> storage space.   Yes, there are obstructions to sprinkler discharge, but we 
> have that in other storage arrays as well, so absent any clearer 
> prescription, it’s hard to argue with the shielded fire load approach and use 
> EH2.  But if it’s only a single tier, then I’m probably back in the OH2 camp, 
> although as I said before, it almost seems like there are no two growing 
> facilities that are alike and the system designer is going to have to flex to 
> what the AHJ is requiring and what the specific conditions of that particular 
> facility would dictate.
>  
>  
> The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 420 
> Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the 
> standard.
>  
> Protection Design and Consulting
> Steve Leyton, President
> T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  www.protectiondesign.com 
> 2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
> Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Fpdcdesign  
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 8:52 AM
> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
> 
> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing
>  
> The array of tables are about 1000 sqft each
>  
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-554-7054  (fax)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
> 
> 
> 
> On May 13, 2024 at 10:42 AM,  wrote:
> 
> I’m in the 2019 edition, but sections 9.5.5.3.1.5 and 9.5.5.3.2 may help 
> provide guidance.  They do not up the hazard level due to an obstruction in 
> place, I like the idea of taking into effect a shielded fire, especially with 
> the size of some of these grow ops these days, but there are certain 
> provisions that would suggest otherwise….
>  
> Spencer Tomlinson, PE
> Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
>  
> 
>Cell: 620-955-7293
>  
> From: Fpdcdesign  
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 9:32 AM
> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
> 
> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing
>  
> Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with 
> protection where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big 
> difference is the word “extensive” in the EH2 definition. From what I have 
> seen below grow tables it is a very wet environment with most of the 
> combustibles being water and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that 
> would rise to extensive. The other argument if below the tables can be 
> considered  a “concealed space”. Since 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Steve Leyton]

All:

I was just approved by NFPA Standards Council to represent AFSA on the 420.   I 
do not yet have a copy of the first draft (it’s not available on the 420 web 
page or through free access), but I’ve requested and will look over the fire 
protection systems design criteria, which I believe consists of nothing 
tangible at this moment.

Since my firm is located in SoCal, we’ve done several grows and each one has 
been different.   We’ve designed for an open warehouse with fixed lighting 
mounts that simply go up and down.  We’ve had to contend with a fixture that’s 
about 4’ wide and can be moved up/down/left/right.   We’ve done two-tier grows 
and three-tier grows and we’ve also dealt with the pre-fab grow rooms.   Within 
those grow rooms we’ve seen fixed tables and the sliding ones alluded to in 
this thread.   To say it’s the Wild West out here is an understatement.

Especially in CA, many fire officials have simply hit the HPS button and called 
it a 24’ (three tiers of mature plants) of Class 3 or 4 on racks in the open 
rooms, but I have issues with that since mature plants are 85% water.   The 
growing medium that is fast becoming industry standard is Class A material 
(rock wool), it’s kept wet, and doesn’t require a container, so the commodity 
ISN’T that hazardous.   What complicates things is the presence of the solid 
shelving, and that gets even more complicated by the sliding fixtures that can 
be nested up to four across, which is a 16’ wide solid obstruction in some grow 
rooms, and sometimes there are two or three of those shelving levels.

I don’t have any specific answers right now but I am hopeful that we can point 
the code development conversation down a reality-based path, that being the 
fact that this commodity isn’t all that hazardous (well, if the munchies aren’t 
considered a hazard), and the shelving (which is plastic or polymer composite) 
makes up a very small percentage of the overall volume of the storage space.   
Yes, there are obstructions to sprinkler discharge, but we have that in other 
storage arrays as well, so absent any clearer prescription, it’s hard to argue 
with the shielded fire load approach and use EH2.  But if it’s only a single 
tier, then I’m probably back in the OH2 camp, although as I said before, it 
almost seems like there are no two growing facilities that are alike and the 
system designer is going to have to flex to what the AHJ is requiring and what 
the specific conditions of that particular facility would dictate.


The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 420 
Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Protection Design and Consulting
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training







From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 8:52 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

The array of tables are about 1000 sqft each

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On May 13, 2024 at 10:42 AM, mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com>> wrote:
I’m in the 2019 edition, but sections 9.5.5.3.1.5 and 9.5.5.3.2 may help 
provide guidance.  They do not up the hazard level due to an obstruction in 
place, I like the idea of taking into effect a shielded fire, especially with 
the size of some of these grow ops these days, but there are certain provisions 
that would suggest otherwise….

Spencer Tomlinson, PE
Owner, Fire Protection Engineer

[red logo]
   Cell: 620-955-7293

From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 9:32 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with protection 
where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big difference is 
the word “extensive” in the EH2 definition. From what I have seen below grow 
tables it is a very wet environment with most of the combustibles being water 
and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that would rise to extensive. The 
other argument if below the tables can be considered  a “concealed space”. 
Since there is no NFPA definition, we need to go to a dictionary definition. My 
dictionary say the definition of conceal is “to hide from view”. Nothing that 
talks about physical separation. I think this would meet that criteria.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)




On May 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:
The 3000 sq ft is specifically 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Fpdcdesign]

  
  

  The array of tables are about 1000 sqft each
  
  
  
Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On May 13, 2024 at 10:42 AM,   (mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
> I’m in the 2019 edition, but sections 9.5.5.3.1.5 and 9.5.5.3.2 may help 
> provide guidance.They do not up the hazard level due to an obstruction in 
> place, I like the idea of taking into effect a shielded fire, especially with 
> the size of some of these grow ops these days, but there are certain 
> provisions that would suggest otherwise….
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>
>  Spencer Tomlinson, PE
>
>   
>
>  Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>
>
>   
>
>   Cell: 620-955-7293
>
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> From:  Fpdcdesign  
>   Sent:  Monday, May 13, 2024 9:32 AM
>   To:  Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers  
> 
>   Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>
> Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with 
> protection where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big 
> difference is the word “extensive” in the EH2 definition. From what I have 
> seen below grow tables it is a very wet environment with most of the 
> combustibles being water and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that 
> would rise to extensive. The other argument if below the tables can be 
> considereda “concealed space”. Since there is no NFPA definition, we need 
> to go to a dictionary definition. My dictionary say the definition of conceal 
> is “to hide from view”. Nothing that talks about physical separation. I think 
> this would meet that criteria.  
>
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
>   
>   
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Stonington, CT
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
>
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>
>   
>   
>
>
>   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > On May 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM,  mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com)>  
> > wrote:
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > The 3000 sq ft is specifically for unprotected concealed combustible 
> > spaces. So I don’t see how that could be used as you don’t have that from 
> > what you describe.   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Travis Mack, SET
> >
> >   
> >
> > M.E.P.CAD   |   
> >
> >   
> >
> > 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
> >
> >   
> >
> >  www.mepcad.com 
> > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mepcad.com_=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=SMKi3MpB_L04QTNOI8wsXTbQAi8Ov0kr5kJ9QWv4K58=Rt2Ku0kdmBZShB-fHbPlOHh8rfl-aQkPP6VbfAr-e7kT2fRmXYAjbMGp_kV4Nqy3=UpVuXPq25y_S_GAXByMhUQqOZrb0zMeyhfjGV8qVydo=)
> >|   m:   480.547.9348
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > AutoSPRINK|AutoSPRINK FAB|AutoSPRINK RVT|AlarmCAD
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > Book appointment time in my calendar
> >
> >   
> >
> >   https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad 
> > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__calendly.com_t-5Fmack-5Fmepcad=DwMFaQ=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=SMKi3MpB_L04QTNOI8wsXTbQAi8Ov0kr5kJ9QWv4K58=Rt2Ku0kdmBZShB-fHbPlOHh8rfl-aQkPP6VbfAr-e7kT2fRmXYAjbMGp_kV4Nqy3=Mqd76qng9bxij52cNbe4j_54BKlqyfyCL638vCVKos8=)
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > From:   Fpdcdesign  mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com)>
> >   Sent:  Monday, May 13, 2024 7:05:28 AM
> >   To:  Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers  
> >  > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>
> >   Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Travis, What I have run into out here is that the grow tables are not fixed 
> > in place. Consequently, they become “furniture” and protection is not 
> > installed underneath. (I am trying to get that information). If they are 
> > not fixed, does the 3000 sqft area increase apply or do we go to EH2?   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Todd G Williams, PE
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Stonington, CT
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >
> >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >
> > > On May 13, 2024 at 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Kerry Madigan]

Denver has been accepting OH2 for grow facilities for a long time. It 
doesn't matter if the tables are portable or not.


Kerry L

Kerry L. Madigan, PE

Principal, Sr. Fire Protection Engineer

**

*/VERITAS/*///Fire Engineering, Inc.///

12364 W. Alameda Pkwy, Suite 135

Lakewood, CO 80228

303-985-3300 ext 202

303-985-5594 fax

720-253-3549 cell

On 5/13/2024 5:48 AM, Fpdcdesign wrote:
I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. 
I have been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out 
agriculture facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My 
question comes from the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers 
are required underneath. However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for 
unprotected spaces come into play? I would like to do something that 
is at least close to what 420 will be recommending.


Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080  (ofc)
860-554-7054   (fax)
860-608-4559  (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Spencer Tomlinson]

I’m in the 2019 edition, but sections 9.5.5.3.1.5 and 9.5.5.3.2 may help 
provide guidance.  They do not up the hazard level due to an obstruction in 
place, I like the idea of taking into effect a shielded fire, especially with 
the size of some of these grow ops these days, but there are certain provisions 
that would suggest otherwise….

Spencer Tomlinson, PE
Owner, Fire Protection Engineer

[red logo]
   Cell: 620-955-7293

From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 9:32 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with protection 
where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big difference is 
the word “extensive” in the EH2 definition. From what I have seen below grow 
tables it is a very wet environment with most of the combustibles being water 
and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that would rise to extensive. The 
other argument if below the tables can be considered  a “concealed space”. 
Since there is no NFPA definition, we need to go to a dictionary definition. My 
dictionary say the definition of conceal is “to hide from view”. Nothing that 
talks about physical separation. I think this would meet that criteria.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On May 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:
The 3000 sq ft is specifically for unprotected concealed combustible spaces. So 
I don’t see how that could be used as you don’t have that from what you 
describe.


Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com
 | m: 480.547.9348



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad


From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 7:05:28 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

Travis, What I have run into out here is that the grow tables are not fixed in 
place. Consequently, they become “furniture” and protection is not installed 
underneath. (I am trying to get that information). If they are not fixed, does 
the 3000 sqft area increase apply or do we go to EH2?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On May 13, 2024 at 9:25 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:

What unprotected concealed combustible spaces are you referencing?  The 3000 sq 
ft is for that.  Typically with grow houses, we have put sprinklers under the 
racks of tables, if I am understanding correctly what you are describing.



These houses are definitely a unique protection scheme and it seems the ways of 
the growers changing things to maximize product growth is ever changing and 
does need a constant review.



I have seen some where the tables slid along a racking system.  It was similar 
in concept to movable rack storage.  Since we couldn’t put sprinklers below the 
table areas, the AHJ said to protect as a heavily shielded fire and do the 
overhead system as EH2.  I’m not sure if that is the best method, but it did 
get it through in that particular jurisdiction.





Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com
 | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348

Email: t.m...@mepcad.com



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 4:49 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing



I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have 
been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture 
facilities os OH2, which make 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Bill Jones]

Todd, the concealed spaces referenced in NFPA 13 are all regarding the 
construction of the building being protected.  The tables you describe would be 
defined as furniture and would not fit into the area of concealed spaces.  Just 
an AHJ point of view, but I believe supported strongly by the standard.

From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 7:32 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing


⚠ CAUTION: External Email
Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with protection 
where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big difference is 
the word “extensive� in the EH2 definition. From what I have seen below grow 
tables it is a very wet environment with most of the combustibles being water 
and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that would rise to extensive. The 
other argument if below the tables can be considered  a “concealed space�. 
Since there is no NFPA definition, we need to go to a dictionary definition. My 
dictionary say the definition of conceal is “to hide from view�. Nothing that 
talks about physical separation. I think this would meet that criteria.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On May 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:
The 3000 sq ft is specifically for unprotected concealed combustible spaces. So 
I don’t see how that could be used as you don’t have that from what you 
describe.


Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com
 | m: 480.547.9348



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad


From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 7:05:28 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

Travis, What I have run into out here is that the grow tables are not fixed in 
place. Consequently, they become “furniture� and protection is not installed 
underneath. (I am trying to get that information). If they are not fixed, does 
the 3000 sqft area increase apply or do we go to EH2?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On May 13, 2024 at 9:25 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:

What unprotected concealed combustible spaces are you referencing?  The 3000 sq 
ft is for that.  Typically with grow houses, we have put sprinklers under the 
racks of tables, if I am understanding correctly what you are describing.



These houses are definitely a unique protection scheme and it seems the ways of 
the growers changing things to maximize product growth is ever changing and 
does need a constant review.



I have seen some where the tables slid along a racking system.  It was similar 
in concept to movable rack storage.  Since we couldn’t put sprinklers below the 
table areas, the AHJ said to protect as a heavily shielded fire and do the 
overhead system as EH2.  I’m not sure if that is the best method, but it did 
get it through in that particular jurisdiction.





Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com
 | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348

Email: t.m...@mepcad.com



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 4:49 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing



I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have 
been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture 
facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My question comes from 
the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are required underneath. 
However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for unprotected spaces come into play? 
I would like to do something that is at least close to what 420 will be 
recommending.



Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-554-7054  (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Fpdcdesign]

  
  

  Travis, The definition of EH2 and section 19.3.3.1.5 both deal with 
protection where there are unprotected spaces adjacent or within. The big 
difference is the word “extensive” in the EH2 definition. From what I have seen 
below grow tables it is a very wet environment with most of the combustibles 
being water and non-water filled PVC pipe. I’m not sure that would rise to 
extensive. The other argument if below the tables can be considereda 
“concealed space”. Since there is no NFPA definition, we need to go to a 
dictionary definition. My dictionary say the definition of conceal is “to hide 
from view”. Nothing that talks about physical separation. I think this would 
meet that criteria.  
  
  
  
Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On May 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM,  mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> 
>   
> The 3000 sq ft is specifically for unprotected concealed combustible spaces. 
> So I don’t see how that could be used as you don’t have that from what you 
> describe.   
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>   
>
> Travis Mack, SET
>
>   
>
>   M.E.P.CAD   |   
>
>   
>
>   181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
>
>   
>
>   www.mepcad.com (http://www.mepcad.com/)   |   m:   480.547.9348
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
>   AutoSPRINK|AutoSPRINK FAB|AutoSPRINK RVT|AlarmCAD
>
>   
>
> 
>
>   
>
> Book appointment time in my calendar
>
>   
>
>   https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad
>
>   
>   
> From:  Fpdcdesign  
>   Sent:  Monday, May 13, 2024 7:05:28 AM
>   To:  Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers  
> 
>   Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>   Travis, What I have run into out here is that the grow tables are not fixed 
> in place. Consequently, they become “furniture” and protection is not 
> installed underneath. (I am trying to get that information). If they are not 
> fixed, does the 3000 sqft area increase apply or do we go to EH2?   
>   
>   
>   
> Todd G Williams, PE  
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>   
> Stonington, CT
>   
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>   
> 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
>   
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
>   
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>   
> >   
> > On May 13, 2024 at 9:25 AM,  mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com)>  
> > wrote:
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >
> > What unprotected concealed combustible spaces are you referencing?The 
> > 3000 sq ft is for that.Typically with grow houses, we have put 
> > sprinklers under the racks of tables, if I am understanding correctly what 
> > you are describing.   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > These houses are definitely a unique protection scheme and it seems the 
> > ways of the growers changing things to maximize product growth is ever 
> > changing and does need a constant review.
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > I have seen some where the tables slid along a racking system.It was 
> > similar in concept to movable rack storage.Since we couldn’t put 
> > sprinklers below the table areas, the AHJ said to protect as a heavily 
> > shielded fire and do the overhead system as EH2.I’m not sure if that is 
> > the best method, but it did get it through in that particular jurisdiction.
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > Travis Mack, SET
> >
> >   
> >
> > M.E.P.CAD| Instructor / Support
> >
> >   
> >
> > 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
> >
> >   
> >
> > www.mepcad.com (http://www.mepcad.com/)   |  m: 480.547.9348|  Whatspp: 
> > +14805479348
> >
> >   
> >
> > Email: t.m...@mepcad.com
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > AutoSPRINK|AutoSPRINK FAB|AutoSPRINK RVT|AlarmCAD
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > From:   Fpdcdesign  
> >   Sent:  Monday, May 13, 2024 4:49 AM
> >   To:  Sprinklerforum  
> >   Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I 
> > have been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out 
> > agriculture facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My 
> > question comes from the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are 
> > required underneath. However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for 
> > unprotected spaces come into play? I would like to do something that is at 
> > least close to what 420 will be recommending.   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Todd G Williams, PE
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Stonington, CT
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-535-2080 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Travis Mack]

The 3000 sq ft is specifically for unprotected concealed combustible spaces. So 
I don’t see how that could be used as you don’t have that from what you 
describe.


Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD |

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com | m: 480.547.9348



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



Book appointment time in my calendar

https://calendly.com/t_mack_mepcad


From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 7:05:28 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

Travis, What I have run into out here is that the grow tables are not fixed in 
place. Consequently, they become “furniture” and protection is not installed 
underneath. (I am trying to get that information). If they are not fixed, does 
the 3000 sqft area increase apply or do we go to EH2?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On May 13, 2024 at 9:25 AM, mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com>> wrote:


What unprotected concealed combustible spaces are you referencing?  The 3000 sq 
ft is for that.  Typically with grow houses, we have put sprinklers under the 
racks of tables, if I am understanding correctly what you are describing.



These houses are definitely a unique protection scheme and it seems the ways of 
the growers changing things to maximize product growth is ever changing and 
does need a constant review.



I have seen some where the tables slid along a racking system.  It was similar 
in concept to movable rack storage.  Since we couldn’t put sprinklers below the 
table areas, the AHJ said to protect as a heavily shielded fire and do the 
overhead system as EH2.  I’m not sure if that is the best method, but it did 
get it through in that particular jurisdiction.





Travis Mack, SET

M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support

181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074

www.mepcad.com | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348

Email: t.m...@mepcad.com



AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD



From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 4:49 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing



I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have 
been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture 
facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My question comes from 
the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are required underneath. 
However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for unprotected spaces come into play? 
I would like to do something that is at least close to what 420 will be 
recommending.



Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-554-7054  (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

_ SprinklerForum 
mailing list: 
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To 
unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Fpdcdesign]

  
  

  Travis, What I have run into out here is that the grow tables are not fixed 
in place. Consequently, they become “furniture” and protection is not installed 
underneath. (I am trying to get that information). If they are not fixed, does 
the 3000 sqft area increase apply or do we go to EH2?   
  
  
  
Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On May 13, 2024 at 9:25 AM,  mailto:t.m...@mepcad.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> 
>   
>
> What unprotected concealed combustible spaces are you referencing?The 
> 3000 sq ft is for that.Typically with grow houses, we have put sprinklers 
> under the racks of tables, if I am understanding correctly what you are 
> describing.   
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> These houses are definitely a unique protection scheme and it seems the ways 
> of the growers changing things to maximize product growth is ever changing 
> and does need a constant review.
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> I have seen some where the tables slid along a racking system.It was 
> similar in concept to movable rack storage.Since we couldn’t put 
> sprinklers below the table areas, the AHJ said to protect as a heavily 
> shielded fire and do the overhead system as EH2.I’m not sure if that is 
> the best method, but it did get it through in that particular jurisdiction.
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> Travis Mack, SET
>
>   
>
> M.E.P.CAD| Instructor / Support
>
>   
>
> 181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
>
>   
>
> www.mepcad.com (http://www.mepcad.com/)   |  m: 480.547.9348|  Whatspp: 
> +14805479348
>
>   
>
> Email: t.m...@mepcad.com
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>
> AutoSPRINK|AutoSPRINK FAB|AutoSPRINK RVT|AlarmCAD
>
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> From:   Fpdcdesign  
>   Sent:  Monday, May 13, 2024 4:49 AM
>   To:  Sprinklerforum  
>   Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing
>
>   
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>
> I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have 
> been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture 
> facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My question comes 
> from the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are required 
> underneath. However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for unprotected spaces 
> come into play? I would like to do something that is at least close to what 
> 420 will be recommending.   
>
>   
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
>   
>   
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> Stonington, CT
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
>
>   
>   
>   
>
> 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
>
>   
>   
>   
>   
>  _ SprinklerForum 
> mailing list: 
> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org 
> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
>   
  
  
 
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe NFPA14 2019

[Chris Wilson]

Steve,
Yes there is a hose connection at the first floor landing of the remote stand 
pipe. Yes there is access to occupied first floor space via the exit passage 
and the remote stairway.
Thanks

Christopher S. Wilson SET
Project Design Manager
Treasure Valley Fire Protection
2731 S. Saturn Way
Boise, ID 83709
Phone:  208-362-1888
Fax: 208-362-2207

please note all TVFP email
addresses have changed
new email below

chr...@tvfpinc.com

From: Steve Leyton 
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2024 7:29 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe NFPA14 2019

Do you have a hose connection on the 1st floor landing of the remote standpipe 
stairwell in addition to the one at the exit passageway door?   And is there 
access to occupiable areas on the first floor from the passageway or stairwell?

Obviously, two or more hose connections supplied by a feed main on a single 
floor is a horizontal standpipe by definition, but it would seem to me that in 
this type of egress system that would be redundant or not of value depending on 
where a firefighter would be going with the water after connection to one or 
the other hose connection.

The foregoing does not represent any opinion or interpretation of the standard 
on behalf of NFPA or the NFPA 14 Technical Committee.

[cid:image001.jpg@01DAA509.E0D5AF00]
Steve Leyton, President
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  
www.protectiondesign.com
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training



From: Chris Wilson [mailto:chr...@tvfpinc.com]
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2024 7:42 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Standpipe NFPA14 2019


To all,
I have a 4 story building with 2 exit stairways I am installing a class I 
manual wet standpipe combination sprinkler system. The remote stair is on the 
interior of the building and has a rated exit passageway  on the first floor 
that is 73' long. I am placing all hose valves on the main floor landings and 
one a the exit door of the exit passage way.

I am planning on calculating 500 gpm from the remote stand pipe and 250 for the 
2nd standpipe. The exit passage way hose connection will be fed by a  2/12 
lateral pipe fed from the  4" horizontal supply to the remote standpipe as it 
pass by the exit passageway.

Do I need to include an additional 250 gpm in my calcs at the hose valve at the 
exit passageway?

Thanks
Christopher S. Wilson SET
Project Design Manager
Treasure Valley Fire Protection
2731 S. Saturn Way
Boise, ID 83709
Phone:  208-362-1888
Fax: 208-362-2207

please note all TVFP email
addresses have changed
new email below

chr...@tvfpinc.com


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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Cannabis growing

[Travis Mack]

What unprotected concealed combustible spaces are you referencing?  The 3000 sq 
ft is for that.  Typically with grow houses, we have put sprinklers under the 
racks of tables, if I am understanding correctly what you are describing.

These houses are definitely a unique protection scheme and it seems the ways of 
the growers changing things to maximize product growth is ever changing and 
does need a constant review.

I have seen some where the tables slid along a racking system.  It was similar 
in concept to movable rack storage.  Since we couldn’t put sprinklers below the 
table areas, the AHJ said to protect as a heavily shielded fire and do the 
overhead system as EH2.  I’m not sure if that is the best method, but it did 
get it through in that particular jurisdiction.


Travis Mack, SET
M.E.P.CAD | Instructor / Support
181 N. Arroyo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
www.mepcad.com | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp: +14805479348
Email: t.m...@mepcad.com

AutoSPRINK  |  AutoSPRINK FAB  |  AutoSPRINK RVT  |  AlarmCAD

From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 4:49 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing

I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have 
been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture 
facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My question comes from 
the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are required underneath. 
However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for unprotected spaces come into play? 
I would like to do something that is at least close to what 420 will be 
recommending.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

_
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[Sprinklerforum] Cannabis growing

[Fpdcdesign]

 
 

  I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have 
been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture 
facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My question comes from 
the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are required underneath. 
However, does the 3000 sqft demand area for unprotected spaces come into play? 
I would like to do something that is at least close to what 420 will be 
recommending.  
 
 
 
Todd G Williams, PE 
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 
Stonington, CT
 
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
 
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
 
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
 
 
 
 

 
 
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