Mailing Lists

[Gary Kramlich]

Greetings Programs!

Sorry for all the downtime with the mailing lists, they're back up now 
(obviously) but will be taking them down again in the next few days for 
their migration to a new server.


I wrote a more detailed write up to the devel mailing list [1] if anyone 
wants to know more details of what's going on.


[1] https://lists.pidgin.im/pipermail/devel/2021-November/024412.html

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich 
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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[Mark Rousell]

On 13/10/2016 02:24, Dave Warren wrote:
> More importantly, nearly every case I've seen where an active community
> of technically inclined helpers assist novice users moves from a mailing
> list to a forum, many/most of the helpers don't go with it, leaving the
> forums a barren wasteland of users begging for help and receiving
> nothing, while the technical users often follow dozens of lists and
> can't be bothered with terrible, slow and different forum interfaces.

This. Community fragmentation is always a risk when changing the
underlying technical infrastructure for the community.

> For those who don't understand the difference in interface, and the
> importance of consistency, sit down with a maillist power user
[...]
> and
> if those answering go away, so ends it all.

All of the above is my experience too.


-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[Mark Rousell]

On 09/10/2016 01:16, pid...@alexoren.com wrote:
> No, you do not.  The forum software can be configured to send email
> notifications for responses to the threads you are following, as well
> as for new posts in the sub-forums that you are interested in,
> including the full text of the message.  So in effect you can treat
> them as a mailing list but with finer control, with the only
> "inconvenience" of having to click a link when you want to reply.

Unfortunately most forum software does not allow replies to be sent by
email.  This means, as others have pointed out, that one of the key
problems with forums is that they require users to actually visit them
to actually participate (rather than merely consume other people's
discussions by email).

I am a member of a great many mailing lists but only a few forums. The
dynamics of community connection differ between mail lists and forums
due to the practical technical differences.

I'd personally be in favour of a web forum if, and only if, it allowed
two way email communications into discussions hosted within it, such
that mail list functionality was integrated with it. This is certainly
technically possible. Does any free or very easily affordable forum
software provide this feature (i.e. two way integration with something
like Mailman)?


-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[Mark Rousell]

On 08/10/2016 23:35, David Woolley wrote:
> On 08/10/16 22:49, Alex Oren wrote:
>> Are there any compelling reasons not to use an internet forum?
>>
>> Their many advantages over mailing lists include:
>> - Easier searching for existing solutions.
>> - Fine-grained control over email notifications.
>> - The ability to display prominent explanation of what support can be
>> expected.
>
> This subject produces very polarised response whenever it comes up on
> other mailing lists, but from my point of view:
>
> - I can afford to be on a lot more mailing lists that forums (with
> forums you have to go and visit each one to see if there are updates);
> - mailing lists provide a consistent user interface;
> - although possibly not an issue with Pidgin, forums tend to result in
> fragmentation, as people tend to belong to just one forum, and forums
> are often advertising funded, so their operators tend to have an
> incentive to get people to use their forum, rather than any other
> forum covering the subject, exacerbating that fragmentation;
> - forums don't allow you to maintain an offline archive that you can
> search and search tools for them are often not very effective;
> - forums cannot be read offline
>
> Also if you are going to assume that there is one direction of
> progress, shouldn't be you calling for Web RTC speech connections on
> the grounds that forums are noughties technology (difficult without a
> paid for contact centre, of course), but it does make the point that
> support channels need to match those providing the support.
>
> In my view, a lot of, so called, progress, is really either fashion or
> driven by commercial considerations (e.g., as noted above, forums
> allow advertising funding, and from the point of view of forum
> hosters, are often seen purely as means of delivering advertising).

Well said. Mail lists work. They aren't broken and don't need fixing.


-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[Dave Warren]

In my experience, *very* few forums do a good job of gatewaying email to
a forum, on the forum side nobody quotes properly (and definitely never
trims), threading rarely works even for reading, and it eventually
becomes unpleasant to even attempt to help users. From fields are almost
universally lost, you usually just get a dream of "Fancypants forum
message!" from fields.

(Who cares about a From field? If I see another experienced helper
assisting, I won't bother to see if an issue was resolved unless the
topic interests me. If I only see "Me too!" posts, it's a topic that
needs attention.)

More importantly, nearly every case I've seen where an active community
of technically inclined helpers assist novice users moves from a mailing
list to a forum, many/most of the helpers don't go with it, leaving the
forums a barren wasteland of users begging for help and receiving
nothing, while the technical users often follow dozens of lists and
can't be bothered with terrible, slow and different forum interfaces.

For those who don't understand the difference in interface, and the
importance of consistency, sit down with a maillist power user, you'll
find a lot of us can flip through dozens of messages at nearly the speed
we read, moving to the next message or skipping to another thread with a
literal touch of a button. Forums? You scroll, wait for your focus to
find the top of the next message (no, it's not going to be at the top of
your screen in a forum, yes it is in my own client of choice). Moving
between messages sometimes requires clicks (which requires reaching a
mouse, targeting a button, clicking, waiting, waiting, waiting), moving
between threads always does. All minor things, but they add up to a
cognitive load and time-suck, neither of which are pluses. 

Or maybe that's just me. At my peak I was actively reading over 200
mailing lists and newsgroups, actively participating in and contributing
to at least 100 on a weekly basis and virtually all on a semi-regular
(monthly) basis. Some I just read for information. Sometimes I'd follow
the -dev list so that I could be up to date and help users on the
-support list. Although I've actively curtailed my mailing list habits
due to other time commitments, I still try to help users when my skills
would be useful. I follow exactly two forums, and contribute less than
monthly because the time and pain factor just isn't worth it. 

Users might prefer forums, but the folks who volunteer their time to
help, especially on lower profile open-source products, seem to prefer
the efficiency of controlling their own interfaces and email (and
newsgroups) are beautiful for that. Personally, I'd rather focus on ease
of use and efficiency for those answering questions rather than those
asking as there are nearly always more users asking than answering, and
if those answering go away, so ends it all.



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RE: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[David Balažic]

Alexoren wrote:


> No, you do not.  The forum software can be configured to send email
> notifications for responses to the threads you are following, as well as for 
> new
> posts in the sub-forums that you are interested in, including the full text 
> of the
> message.  So in effect you can treat them as a mailing list but with finer 
> control,
> with the only "inconvenience" of having to click a link when you want to 
> reply.

Not even that. Configuring replies over email is just a small technical detail.

"mail list" and "forum" are just two interfaces to the same thing: a collection 
of discussions (threads) about a common theme (pidgin support).

Not very popular, but some , ugh... systems are doing exactly that. The content 
can be accessed as a mail list or as a (web based) forum.

Also, in my experience, there is an order of magnitude more trolling on forums 
than on mailing lists.

Regards,
David

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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[pidgin]

On 08-10-2016 18:23, Brian Morrison wrote:

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 17:49:15 -0400
Alex Oren  wrote:


Are there any compelling reasons not to use an internet forum?


Comes to me automatically, I don't have to visit a forum.


Email notifications (with full text).


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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[pidgin]

On 08-10-2016 18:35, David Woolley wrote:

On 08/10/16 22:49, Alex Oren wrote:

Are there any compelling reasons not to use an internet forum?

Their many advantages over mailing lists include: - Easier
searching for existing solutions. - Fine-grained control over
email notifications. - The ability to display prominent explanation
of what support can be expected.


This subject produces very polarised response whenever it comes up
on other mailing lists, but from my point of view:


I would like to comment on your points.

But before I do, please keep in mind that I am advocating the use of a forum 
for the SUPPORT mailing list, which is supposed to be open for a wide array of 
users, who cannot be assumed to be technically savvy, familiar with 
nettiquette, etc.


- I can afford to be on a lot more mailing lists that forums (with
forums you have to go and visit each one to see if there are
updates);


No, you do not.  The forum software can be configured to send email notifications for 
responses to the threads you are following, as well as for new posts in the sub-forums 
that you are interested in, including the full text of the message.  So in effect you can 
treat them as a mailing list but with finer control, with the only 
"inconvenience" of having to click a link when you want to reply.

And, contrary to mailing lists, I can choose not to be sent replies to threads 
I am not interested in.


- mailing lists provide a consistent user interface;


See above.  Plus, core BBCode is standard across most (if not all) forum 
software.


- although possibly not an issue with Pidgin, forums tend to result
in fragmentation, as people tend to belong to just one forum, and
forums are often advertising funded, so their operators tend to have
an incentive to get people to use their forum, rather than any other
forum covering the subject, exacerbating that fragmentation;


This is completely irrelevant to the Pidgin support list.


- forums don't allow you to maintain an offline archive that you can
search and search tools for them are often not very effective;


1. Forums that are configured to send email notifications (with full text) 
offer the same offline capabilities as a mailing list.

2. To the casual user, forums offer VASTLY superior searching functionality 
compared to email archives


 - forums cannot be read offline


And https://pidgin.im/pipermail/support/ can?


Also if you are going to assume that there is one direction of
progress


I don't give a rodent's posterior about "directions of progress".  My argument 
is not ideological but practical: during the short time I have been on this list, several 
people asked about Pidgin on mobile, others wanted support with their providers, and yet 
others had questions that could be easily avoided if there was a decent and friendly way 
to view and/or search old threads (and no, Google with site:pidgin.im does not qualify).

And let's not forget about users that hit "reply" instead of "reply all", and 
the emails admonishing them for doing so.

I am not arguing against mailing lists in general, and it may as well be the 
best tool for the job for the DEVELOPER list, but it does not appear to be the 
case for the SUPPORT list.

Best regards,
Alex

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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[David Woolley]

On 08/10/16 22:49, Alex Oren wrote:

Are there any compelling reasons not to use an internet forum?

Their many advantages over mailing lists include:
- Easier searching for existing solutions.
- Fine-grained control over email notifications.
- The ability to display prominent explanation of what support can be
expected.


This subject produces very polarised response whenever it comes up on 
other mailing lists, but from my point of view:


- I can afford to be on a lot more mailing lists that forums (with 
forums you have to go and visit each one to see if there are updates);

- mailing lists provide a consistent user interface;
- although possibly not an issue with Pidgin, forums tend to result in 
fragmentation, as people tend to belong to just one forum, and forums 
are often advertising funded, so their operators tend to have an 
incentive to get people to use their forum, rather than any other forum 
covering the subject, exacerbating that fragmentation;
- forums don't allow you to maintain an offline archive that you can 
search and search tools for them are often not very effective;

- forums cannot be read offline

Also if you are going to assume that there is one direction of progress, 
shouldn't be you calling for Web RTC speech connections on the grounds 
that forums are noughties technology (difficult without a paid for 
contact centre, of course), but it does make the point that support 
channels need to match those providing the support.


In my view, a lot of, so called, progress, is really either fashion or 
driven by commercial considerations (e.g., as noted above, forums allow 
advertising funding, and from the point of view of forum hosters, are 
often seen purely as means of delivering advertising).


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Re: It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[Brian Morrison]

On Sat, 8 Oct 2016 17:49:15 -0400
Alex Oren  wrote:

> Are there any compelling reasons not to use an internet forum?

Comes to me automatically, I don't have to visit a forum.

-- 

Brian

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It's 2016, why are we still using mailing lists?

[Alex Oren]

Are there any compelling reasons not to use an internet forum?

Their many advantages over mailing lists include:
- Easier searching for existing solutions.
- Fine-grained control over email notifications.
- The ability to display prominent explanation of what support can be expected.

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