[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
aysiu: Yes this is one of the fundamental communication breakdowns between the closed door design team and the external community. Shuttleworth and the design team want data.. but they haven't communicated what that means. Why hasn't that happened? Is the team concerned that the passionate minority with game the system and heavily bias the data that is being collected? There hasn't been a general data collecting methodology articulated for any of the experimental design decisions. This, more than any individual design decision, is the fundamental breakdown in communication which risks hardening passionate contributors in the Ubuntu community against Canonical in leading this work. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark: Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels creating data that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored. You and the design team are the only group in a position define what is acceptable data in your decision-making process. Putting forward some questions you want answered like you did above is helpful. But you could go further, and articulate a framework by which questions can be proposed by externals, accepted by the design team as important to the design process, and then answered with an acceptable data collection methodology. If you do not articulate a data feedback framework that is acceptable to the design team then how is anyone suppose to know what you think is and is not acceptable? If you don't have a process by which people can propose questions worth answering with data, how do people know what to collect data on? Generally speaking..when doing an experiment in a professional research setting you have to have a firm grasp on the questions you want answered and how you plan to collect data _before_ you do the experiment. You seldom just throw stuff together and see what happens. Neither of the questions nor the data collection methodology were communicated before this experiment with the button positions. Something to think about before you embark on the next round of design experiments. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
scholli: I make no claim that this particular issue is as important as the emotion displayed in the discourse would suggest. It's like when I have a big argument with my wife over something small. Once the emotions are spent and we rationally talk through why the out- of-proportion argument happened..It's never just that one small thing. It's a series of small things..and that one just happened to be the one that triggered the release of built up frustrations. More often than not the underlying problem is that one of us is not communicating well enough about requirements,intentions and plans to the other person. Maybe the out-of-proportion response here is indicative of a systemic lack of communication from the design team about their plans and vision. Contrast how the Canonical design team works with how the recent Gnome hackfest participants communicated what was going on at the event. http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/London2010 Out of all the listed participants on that page with blogs... how many of the non-Canonical employees made an effort to communicate back about the event to the Gnome community via the Gnome planet. I can count multiple posts from participants employed by several other companies making a concerted effort to communicate to the rest of us in the Gnome community where the design discussion was going from their expert pov. How many Canonical employees made a proactive effort to communicate what was going on? I don't remember seeing a single Canonical employee who participated in those design discussions blogging about it in the Gnome planet feed. I mention that little caveat because I think it speaks to the underlying problem..a problem that will persist and color all future interactions with the community over differences of opinion in design decisions. That problem is a a lack of proactive communication on the part of the Canonical design leaders about what's going on. This should be a big concern for the community watchdogs inside Canonical. How the design team, and its growing influence over the Ubuntu experience could be the genesis of a systemic, insular corporate culture inside Canonical that is more concerned about dealing in a reactionary manner to community feedback as a drain on their productivity instead of proactively communicating a roadmap and soliciting the community for feedback early on in the design process. It's really easy to brush the egregious emotion over this one design issue aside and chalk it up to a small number of malcontents. But even Shuttleworth got dragged into making uncharacteristic personal attacks in this report. That should send up a red flag. There's something else going on here that is causing an out of proportion response. And if I'm right about the underlying problem, then the communication break down between designers and the community is just going to get worse unless its dealt with. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Mark: I did not make any assumptions about intent or motivations on the behalf of anyone at Canonical. What I am saying is that maybe...just maybe the Canonical design team isn't communicating enough about intent and motivation so that the external community can see individual changes in context of the long term vision. I've sketched what the consequences of a lack of communication can look like...but I've not spoken to what I think Canonical's motivations are in failing to layout a bright roadmap for externals to use to put changes into the correct context. But man, I'm so hoping its revenue generating Google Adwords in window titlebars...but I haven't actually said that yet. What I am suggesting is that there is a lack of communication from the Canonical design team outward into the larger community. Did I at any point question the fact that Canonical cares about usability and design? I know very well Canonical sponsored the Gnome event. But sponsoring a small team event, is not the same as communicating the vision created in that event. I saw a lot of people making an effort to really communicate a larger vision of what is going on in an effort to prepare the wider community for the UI changes that are going to result of that peer- expert meeting. And because of that effort to communicate, its going to be much easier for externals to understand how each individual change fits into a broader context. Did any of the Canonical participants at that Gnome hackfest blog or any other way communicate their experience of the Gnome hackfest? Sure Canonical sponsored it...but did any of the Canonical attendees communicate to the wider Gnome community outside that room? Its effort to communicate expert opinion to non-experts that aids in the acceptance of the larger vision...not the simple fact that the experts are in fact experts. What I am suggesting is that you and your team need to be mindful of a pattern of behavior that disregards the power of external proactive communication to set the context of a discussion over individual changes. I'm not speaking to what is motivating that pattern of behavior, what's motivating the lack of discussion about the benefits opening up the right side of the titlebar. I'm just pointing out its a deficiency in your communication strategy in that you haven't laid down a roadmap where this change makes sense in context. If individual design decisions continue on like this, communication is going to become more shrill which each such change. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Jordan: I don't think you can hold up webpages this long as typical or even moderately common usage. Having to scroll all the way to the bottom to see newest comments and to get to the Add comment box in Launchpad is more indicative of a design failure of the launchpad web interface itself than it is an example of the necessity of keeping an emphasis on scrollbars. Note the word emphasis I think we can agree that if you have to flick your finger 100+ times on your scroll wheel or your trackpad or on your multi-touch display..to get to an input box...the webpage is broken by design. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Scaine: The problem here is that people are talking past each other. What's primarily missing is a definition and explanation of the data and data collection methodology that Shuttleworth and the rest of the design team are interested in seeing collected and will respect as being good enough to form the basis of addressing design deficiencies. Without the precise details of what the form of the data is that the design team is interested in reviewing, the external group of people who are interested in seeing this reverted are casting about making a best effort to provide the input they feel qualifies as data. So far Shuttleworth has disregarded everything people have pointed to as not meeting his definition of data. This can go on forever, further causing frustration and leading people to assume others in the conversation are acting in bad faith, until Shuttleworth puts his neck out and makes an emphatic statement as to what actually constitutes data. The ball is in Shuttleworth's court. If he wants to play ball with the community over the design process...he'll define what the community needs to do to impact it. If he doesn't want to play ball...he should just leave it at trust me and not talk about wanting data and getting everyone's hopes up. The more good faith effort people put into trying to convince him otherwise and being rebuffed as inadequate, the more emotional its going to get. The problem is... the design team hasn't set forth a workable process by which deficiencies in their decision-making can be addressed by externals. If Shuttleworth is sincere about desiring data that will influence decision-making, then he needs to communicate what that means to the layuser sitting outside the design team and who is sincerely endeavoring to provide the necessary feedback to impact design decisions. Not just this one decision...but a standing process that applies to quantifiable deficiencies in all the closed door design decisions. It also doesn't help that Shuttleworth and the design team are keeping future plans for the titlebar so private instead of sharing mock-ups as to what the open space on the right of the title could actually be used for in 10.10 and beyond. Withholding that sort of information makes it harder for others to correctly contextualize the short-term pain for long-term gain of this change. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize, maximize, close
Scholli: Do I believe Shuttleworth is infallible? No. I believe the previous mistakes made with nautilus spatial are proof enough of that. When he mistake a mistake in judgement...who's he accountable to for that if not the entire Ubuntu community? Who certified him an expert designer? He may be passionate about design but it doesn't automatically make him good at it. I'm passionate about basketball and I'm terrible at it. Whose in a position to tell him his designs are bad if not the external Ubuntu community? You can't really expect Canonical employees to go toe- to-toe with him when he's made up his mind. That's the problem with organizational structures that are built on cults-of-personality... the lines between what it means to be a meritocracy and an autocracy get a little blurry. Does that mean that all the decisions should be second-guessed? No. I'm not even really sure this one decision is even worth arguing over. But others do. The underlying problem here is Shuttleworth has rushed an incomplete set of changes onto users without laying down a roadmap to put those changes into context. If this needs to be top secret for business reasons...they could have just waited and wow'd everyone when it was time to implement the beneficial changes that require this not so beneficial change. He hasn't articulated why this change really needs to be in an LTS release when the benefits of the change are going to be experimented with in a 10.10 time frame. Isn't this sort of experimental stuff exactly why PPAs exist? Couldn't the Canonical design team work on this in a PPA and invite people to consume the PPA as early adopters? On top of that he's really giving people mixed signals about how to constructively impact design decisions. People are trying to show him data.. its just not the data he thinks is valuable. Okay...great..so what exactly is valuable data? He's not saying. His responses strain the credibility of the idea that he wants community feedback. Ubuntu is utterly and completely Shuttleworth's baby. If he wants to collaborate with the community that has been drawn into the project's promise of transparency..then he should make good on that promise and be transparent and communicate about plans. If he wants to be Steve Jobs 2.0 and wow potential consumers with innovative product offerings born from behind closed doors with no community input then he can be that instead. He just needs to decide be consistent about how he wants to interact with the Ubuntu community. Consumer or collaborators...his choice. -- [light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to menu:minimize,maximize,close https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu. -- ubuntu-bugs mailing list ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs
