Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
On Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Schalk Neethling wrote: Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Does not match the usage as described by the WHAT-WG (http://developers.whatwg.org/links.html#link-type-help) exactly, but close enough? On Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Anne van Kesteren wrote: If there is no actual hyperlink, using a link relation does not make sense. Indeed. On Thu, 29 Sep 2011, Schalk Neethling wrote: I heard some mention of using the data-* attributes so, something like: a href= data-tooltip=Some help text/a or input type=text data-tooltip=Some help text / Would you agree that this is the better option? If what you want is a tooltip, then the title= attribute is probably your best bet. No need for any scripting. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
29.9.2011 21:52, Tantek Çelik wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 11:12, Jukka K. Korpelajkorp...@cs.tut.fi wrote: 29.9.2011 20:50, Tantek Çelik wrote: Javascript-only help text (tooltip or otherwise) or any other content intended for human consumption is a really bad idea for all the usual reasons (#a11y, mobile, search etc.) Except in cases where the information is relevant only when JavaScript is enabled. That's a reasonable theory. Do you have URLs to any real world examples? For example, various virtual keyboard pages use such techniques. Say, http://www.virtualkeyboard.ws has buttons for entering characters, with mouseover events that show information about the key. Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Realizing that this example markup was ambiguous - that is: Does the string Help text represent a hypothetical placeholder on a span or div etc.? Or is that markup part of a hyperlink that links to a separate help document? E.g. a rel=help title=Help text href=help.html(?)/a I assumed the latter. At least it makes sense. And it would make sense, in my opinion, to have JavaScript code that displays the string in the title attribute. The reason is that although graphic browsers generally display that value on mouseover by default, the implementations have oddities that reduce usability: the tooltip text is in a system-dependent font (cannot be styled by the author, cannot be modified by the user except via system settings), and it may disappear after some seconds. But there are situations where you expect 80% of people do well without any instructions. Again, seems like a reasonable theory. Do you have URLs to real world examples thereof? Say, http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/ucp.php?mode=register looks like a sure case. Or did you mean a form that additionally may have a problem for 20% of people or less? I guess _every_ form has some potential problem to _some_ people. The form cited has a Confirmation of registration question. I would expect well over 80% of users to be able to answer it without difficulties, but I'm afraid there's a non-ignorable amount of people who might get puzzled by it. I'm not sure of what we are expected to do, as authors, in order to give instructions that might be needed by 20% of users but would mostly be a distraction for the majority. Theoretical problems are harder to provide specific answers for, but this might work: Try the details and summary elements. I don't think the problem is theoretical (although it was formulated in general terms - as this seems natural in a discussion like this). The answer is, as there is no support worth mentioning yet. http://html5doctor.com/the-details-and-summary-elements/ So you have some URLs to real world examples? :-) -- Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
[whatwg] Question: rel=help
Hi there everyone, Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Does not match the usage as described by the WHAT-WG (http://developers.whatwg.org/links.html#link-type-help) exactly, but close enough? -- Kind Regards, Schalk Neethling Mozilla Corporation
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:35:33 +0200, Schalk Neethling sneethl...@mozilla.com wrote: Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Does not match the usage as described by the WHAT-WG (http://developers.whatwg.org/links.html#link-type-help) exactly, but close enough? If there is no actual hyperlink, using a link relation does not make sense. -- Anne van Kesteren http://annevankesteren.nl/
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
Hi Anna, I heard some mention of using the data-* attributes so, something like: a href= data-tooltip=Some help text/a or input type=text data-tooltip=Some help text / Would you agree that this is the better option? On 29/09/2011 16:50, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:35:33 +0200, Schalk Neethling sneethl...@mozilla.com wrote: Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Does not match the usage as described by the WHAT-WG (http://developers.whatwg.org/links.html#link-type-help) exactly, but close enough? If there is no actual hyperlink, using a link relation does not make sense. -- Kind Regards, Schalk Neethling Mozilla Corporation
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
29.9.2011 20:34, Schalk Neethling wrote: I heard some mention of using the data-* attributes so, something like: a href= data-tooltip=Some help text/a The data-* attributes are supposed to be strictly private, so they are the last resort. This all depends on what is going on, which was not disclosed in the original question. The use of rel=help is for most practical purposes just an idle attribute (few user agents pay any attention to it). But the title attribute is used, so the questions are: What would you like to happen when JavaScript is disabled? Is it OK to search engines to treat the title=... attribute value as actually relating to the link? -- Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
Schalk, Javascript-only help text (tooltip or otherwise) or any other content intended for human consumption is a really bad idea for all the usual reasons (#a11y, mobile, search etc.) Consider adjusting your content design to incorporate the help text instead (perhaps with either the respective element's title attribute or with a nearby/adjacent element) so that it is available without JS, and then if you wish to do fancy tooltip effects feel free to provide them with JS (progressive enhancement) which re-uses that content from the page. Thanks, Tantek -Original Message- From: Schalk Neethling sneethl...@mozilla.com Sender: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 19:34:40 To: Anne van Kesterenann...@opera.com Reply-To: sneethl...@mozilla.com Cc: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org Subject: Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help Hi Anna, I heard some mention of using the data-* attributes so, something like: a href= data-tooltip=Some help text/a or input type=text data-tooltip=Some help text / Would you agree that this is the better option? On 29/09/2011 16:50, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 16:35:33 +0200, Schalk Neethling sneethl...@mozilla.com wrote: Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Does not match the usage as described by the WHAT-WG (http://developers.whatwg.org/links.html#link-type-help) exactly, but close enough? If there is no actual hyperlink, using a link relation does not make sense. -- Kind Regards, Schalk Neethling Mozilla Corporation
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
29.9.2011 20:50, Tantek Çelik wrote: Javascript-only help text (tooltip or otherwise) or any other content intended for human consumption is a really bad idea for all the usual reasons (#a11y, mobile, search etc.) Except in cases where the information is relevant only when JavaScript is enabled. But the original question did not imply, as far as I can see, any JavaScript-only idea. On the contrary, using the title=... attribute implies that the text will be available to many people graphic browsers (though perhaps just by accident) and to many people using speech-based browsing. Consider adjusting your content design to incorporate the help text instead (perhaps with either the respective element's title attribute or with a nearby/adjacent element) I think that idea was implied in the question: Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? I stll think it's best, for all users, to give instructions in normal text before the fields to be filled out. But there are situations where you expect 80% of people do well without any instructions. I'm not sure of what we are expected to do, as authors, in order to give instructions that might be needed by 20% of users but would mostly be a distraction for the majority. -- Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Re: [whatwg] Question: rel=help
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 11:12, Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi wrote: 29.9.2011 20:50, Tantek Çelik wrote: Javascript-only help text (tooltip or otherwise) or any other content intended for human consumption is a really bad idea for all the usual reasons (#a11y, mobile, search etc.) Except in cases where the information is relevant only when JavaScript is enabled. That's a reasonable theory. Do you have URLs to any real world examples? But the original question did not imply, as far as I can see, any JavaScript-only idea. On the contrary, using the title=... attribute implies that the text will be available to many people graphic browsers (though perhaps just by accident) and to many people using speech-based browsing. Agreed. Consider adjusting your content design to incorporate the help text instead (perhaps with either the respective element's title attribute or with a nearby/adjacent element) I think that idea was implied in the question: Question, would an element with rel=help and a title=Help text make sense and be valid as a JavaScript hook for tooltips? Realizing that this example markup was ambiguous - that is: Does the string Help text represent a hypothetical placeholder on a span or div etc.? Or is that markup part of a hyperlink that links to a separate help document? E.g. a rel=help title=Help text href=help.html(?)/a I stll think it's best, for all users, to give instructions in normal text before the fields to be filled out. Agreed. But there are situations where you expect 80% of people do well without any instructions. Again, seems like a reasonable theory. Do you have URLs to real world examples thereof? I'm not sure of what we are expected to do, as authors, in order to give instructions that might be needed by 20% of users but would mostly be a distraction for the majority. Theoretical problems are harder to provide specific answers for, but this might work: Try the details and summary elements. http://html5doctor.com/the-details-and-summary-elements/ Thanks, Tantek -- http://tantek.com/ - I made an HTML5 tutorial! http://tantek.com/html5
