Re: [whatwg] proposal: extend time to markup durations
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011, Tantek �~Gelik wrote: Some in the microformats community have been making good use of the time element, e.g. for publishing hCalendar, and implementing consuming/converting hCalendar [1] with good success. It would be great if the time element could support expressing durations as well for the use cases as needed by the hMedia and hAudio microformats as well as other use-cases (Wikipedia, IMDB). I've since added this feature. It supports both the hard-to-read but pretty well-established ISO8601 duration syntax: timePT4H18M3S/time ...and a slightly easier-to-read syntax: time4h 18m 3s/time Earlier in this thread I suggested maybe dropping time altogether, with a more generic replacement. Having tried that and gotten lots of negative feedback on the topic, I've since changed the spec again and we now have both a generic element for machine-readable data, data, as well as an element specifically for time-related machine-readable data, time. The old time element, with its rendering rules and DOM API, are gone. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] proposal: extend time to markup durations
On 14/07/2011, at 10:36 PM, Ian Hickson wrote: I haven't studied the above yet, but I just wanted to bring up a trial balloon for a possible alternative solution: drop time and replace it with a generic solution. There are several use cases for time: A. Easier styling of dates and times from CSS. This may be a case of a disconnect between what a programmer thinks of style compared to what a user thinks of style. A localized user thinks that 1/1/01 is a date, whereas this is just a style of formatting to a programmer who thinks of date's in the non-ambigous serialization of 2001-01-01 The question: is i18n formatting stylistic or semantic? B. A way to mark up the publication date/time for an article (e.g. for conversion to Atom). I have concerns about the granularity of such an attribute as pubdate. C. A way to mark up machine-readable times and dates for use in Microformats or microdata. Use cases A and B do not seem to have much traction. Use case C applies to more than just dates, and the lack of solution for stuff outside dates and times is being problematic to many communities. Proposal: we dump use cases A and B, and pivot time on use case C, changing it to data and making it like the abbr for machine-readable data, primarily for use by Microformats and HTML's microdata feature. This sounds like a great area of research in hope of a simpler, yet more flexible and generic solution. The inclusion of date\time\etc may amount to a similar situation as encountered in HTML4 with it's stylistic attributes and their resulting obsoletion when a better solution is found, in that case it was CSS. (I've also filed this as a bug here: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240 I generally prefer to only have issues discussed either in e-mail or in a bug, but Tantek informs me that for technical reasons he can't discuss this on the bug and his input is more important to me than convention, thus my bringing this up here again!) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Thanks, Cameron Jones
[whatwg] proposal: extend time to markup durations
Some in the microformats community have been making good use of the time element, e.g. for publishing hCalendar, and implementing consuming/converting hCalendar [1] with good success. It would be great if the time element could support expressing durations as well for the use cases as needed by the hMedia and hAudio microformats as well as other use-cases (Wikipedia, IMDB). Simple proposal, examples, faq, discussion (please contribute) http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#duration Thanks, Tantek [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/h2vx#HTML5_support -- http://tantek.com/ - I made an HTML5 tutorial! http://tantek.com/html5
Re: [whatwg] proposal: extend time to markup durations
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011, Tantek �~Gelik wrote: Some in the microformats community have been making good use of the time element, e.g. for publishing hCalendar, and implementing consuming/converting hCalendar [1] with good success. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/h2vx#HTML5_support It would be great if the time element could support expressing durations as well for the use cases as needed by the hMedia and hAudio microformats as well as other use-cases (Wikipedia, IMDB). Simple proposal, examples, faq, discussion (please contribute) http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#duration I haven't studied the above yet, but I just wanted to bring up a trial balloon for a possible alternative solution: drop time and replace it with a generic solution. There are several use cases for time: A. Easier styling of dates and times from CSS. B. A way to mark up the publication date/time for an article (e.g. for conversion to Atom). C. A way to mark up machine-readable times and dates for use in Microformats or microdata. Use cases A and B do not seem to have much traction. Use case C applies to more than just dates, and the lack of solution for stuff outside dates and times is being problematic to many communities. Proposal: we dump use cases A and B, and pivot time on use case C, changing it to data and making it like the abbr for machine-readable data, primarily for use by Microformats and HTML's microdata feature. (I've also filed this as a bug here: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240 I generally prefer to only have issues discussed either in e-mail or in a bug, but Tantek informs me that for technical reasons he can't discuss this on the bug and his input is more important to me than convention, thus my bringing this up here again!) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] proposal: extend time to markup durations
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Ian Hickson i...@hixie.ch wrote: On Thu, 14 Jul 2011, Tantek Ã~Gelik wrote: Some in the microformats community have been making good use of the time element, e.g. for publishing hCalendar, and implementing consuming/converting hCalendar [1] with good success. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/h2vx#HTML5_support It would be great if the time element could support expressing durations as well for the use cases as needed by the hMedia and hAudio microformats as well as other use-cases (Wikipedia, IMDB). Simple proposal, examples, faq, discussion (please contribute) http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#duration I haven't studied the above yet, but I just wanted to bring up a trial balloon for a possible alternative solution: drop time and replace it with a generic solution. There are several use cases for time: A. Easier styling of dates and times from CSS. B. A way to mark up the publication date/time for an article (e.g. for conversion to Atom). C. A way to mark up machine-readable times and dates for use in Microformats or microdata. Use cases A and B do not seem to have much traction. Use case C applies to more than just dates, and the lack of solution for stuff outside dates and times is being problematic to many communities. Proposal: we dump use cases A and B, and pivot time on use case C, changing it to data and making it like the abbr for machine-readable data, primarily for use by Microformats and HTML's microdata feature. I'm fine with this, but as I expressed when this was discussed earlier, I think this should be more explicitly aimed at Microdata, with something like itemdata @itemprop @data.../itemdata. This makes it less immediately applicable to Microformats, but in my opinion Microformats should switch to using Microdata as their embedding syntax, as that would solve their you have to write a custom parser for each vocab problem. (I want to address usecase A at some point, but it's a complicated problem that I don't have anywhere near the bandwidth for. It doesn't necessarily require time, though - itemdata would work just fine if CSS specified a particular date format that the data had to be in.) ~TJ
