RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning
Eduroam has a free, customizable configuration utility: https://cat.eduroam.org/ *Tim Cappalli* | ACCP / ACMP / CCNA Network Engineer | Brandeis University cappa...@brandeis.edu | (617) 701-7149 *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *David Rhodes *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:31 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning Hi All, A quick question on member's experiences with the different client provisioning tools. I'm interested on what people have found is the most successful in each of the tools and mechanims for eduroam configuration on multiple vendors and clients: - cloudpass - securew2 joinNow Multios - aruba clearpass quickconnect - others? - manual config via service desk I know there has been a lot of chat about cloudpass xpressconnect, but haven't seen other products mentioned much and am curious why and what the state of play is. thanks, *David Rhodes, Senior Engineer (Networks),* *Information Technology Services Division.*Deakin University, Geelong Waterfront campus, 3217, Victoria, Australia. -- *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of WIRELESS-LAN automatic digest system lists...@listserv.educause.edu *Sent:* Wednesday, 11 December 2013 4:00 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* WIRELESS-LAN Digest - 9 Dec 2013 to 10 Dec 2013 (#2013-233) *Important Notice:** The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone.* *Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free.* ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: client provisioning
CloudPath- frequent updates, wide OS compatibility, great support, good cost model (for us, I've heard others complain about price), easy to administer and fit in to environment. Quite happy with ExpressConnect and CloudPath in general. Lee H. Badman Network Architect/Wireless TME ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of David Rhodes [david.rho...@deakin.edu.au] Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:31 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning Hi All, A quick question on member's experiences with the different client provisioning tools. I'm interested on what people have found is the most successful in each of the tools and mechanims for eduroam configuration on multiple vendors and clients: - cloudpass - securew2 joinNow Multios - aruba clearpass quickconnect - others? - manual config via service desk I know there has been a lot of chat about cloudpass xpressconnect, but haven't seen other products mentioned much and am curious why and what the state of play is. thanks, David Rhodes, Senior Engineer (Networks), Information Technology Services Division. Deakin University, Geelong Waterfront campus, 3217, Victoria, Australia. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of WIRELESS-LAN automatic digest system lists...@listserv.educause.edu Sent: Wednesday, 11 December 2013 4:00 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: WIRELESS-LAN Digest - 9 Dec 2013 to 10 Dec 2013 (#2013-233) Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: client provisioning
Agree with Lee on every aspect. Marcelo Lew Wireless Network Architect Engineer University Technology Services University of Denver Desk: (303) 871-6523 Cell: (303) 669-4217 Fax: (303) 871-5900 Email: m...@du.edumailto:m...@du.edu From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lee H Badman Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:47 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning CloudPath- frequent updates, wide OS compatibility, great support, good cost model (for us, I've heard others complain about price), easy to administer and fit in to environment. Quite happy with ExpressConnect and CloudPath in general. Lee H. Badman Network Architect/Wireless TME ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of David Rhodes [david.rho...@deakin.edu.au] Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:31 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning Hi All, A quick question on member's experiences with the different client provisioning tools. I'm interested on what people have found is the most successful in each of the tools and mechanims for eduroam configuration on multiple vendors and clients: - cloudpass - securew2 joinNow Multios - aruba clearpass quickconnect - others? - manual config via service desk I know there has been a lot of chat about cloudpass xpressconnect, but haven't seen other products mentioned much and am curious why and what the state of play is. thanks, David Rhodes, Senior Engineer (Networks), Information Technology Services Division. Deakin University, Geelong Waterfront campus, 3217, Victoria, Australia. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of WIRELESS-LAN automatic digest system lists...@listserv.educause.edumailto:lists...@listserv.educause.edu Sent: Wednesday, 11 December 2013 4:00 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: WIRELESS-LAN Digest - 9 Dec 2013 to 10 Dec 2013 (#2013-233) Important Notice: The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone. Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning
Ditto. Our service desk was getting overwhelmed with wireless configuration issues while it was still a manual process, both from the number of devices and the every-widening range that people assumed we would support (It works at home!) Cloudpath isn't cheap, but it's definitely paid for itself in terms of man hours saved. Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu| For every problem, there is a solution that Manager of Network Operations | is simple, elegant, and wrong. Worcester Polytechnic Institute | - HL Mencken On 12/12/2013 10:01 AM, Marcelo Lew wrote: Agree with Lee on every aspect. Marcelo Lew Wireless Network Architect Engineer University Technology Services University of Denver Desk: (303) 871-6523 Cell: (303) 669-4217 Fax: (303) 871-5900 Email: m...@du.edu mailto:m...@du.edu *From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Lee H Badman *Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:47 AM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning CloudPath- frequent updates, wide OS compatibility, great support, good cost model (for us, I've heard others complain about price), easy to administer and fit in to environment. Quite happy with ExpressConnect and CloudPath in general. *Lee H. Badman* Network Architect/Wireless TME ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 -- *From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of David Rhodes [david.rho...@deakin.edu.au] *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:31 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* [WIRELESS-LAN] client provisioning Hi All, A quick question on member's experiences with the different client provisioning tools. I'm interested on what people have found is the most successful in each of the tools and mechanims for eduroam configuration on multiple vendors and clients: - cloudpass - securew2 joinNow Multios - aruba clearpass quickconnect - others? - manual config via service desk I know there has been a lot of chat about cloudpass xpressconnect, but haven't seen other products mentioned much and am curious why and what the state of play is. thanks, *David Rhodes, Senior Engineer (Networks),** Information Technology Services Division. *Deakin University, Geelong Waterfront campus, 3217, Victoria, Australia. -- *From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU on behalf of WIRELESS-LAN automatic digest system lists...@listserv.educause.edu mailto:lists...@listserv.educause.edu *Sent:* Wednesday, 11 December 2013 4:00 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* WIRELESS-LAN Digest - 9 Dec 2013 to 10 Dec 2013 (#2013-233) */ *Important Notice:*/*/The contents of this email are intended solely for the named addressee and are confidential; any unauthorised use, reproduction or storage of the contents is expressly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and any attachments immediately and advise the sender by return email or telephone.// /Deakin University does not warrant that this email and any attachments are error or virus free.//** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
Thanks to all for your feedback. Max, do you publish these best practices or is it internal? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178 On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Max Lawrence Lopez max.lo...@colorado.eduwrote: Hello Jake, Here are our Best Practices: University of Colorado Best Practices Guide for Wireless Design The following is a list of the Best Practices used for creating Wireless Network Designs for the Boulder Campus of the University of Colorado. This design includes optimal coverage cells, power settings and channel configuration for the access points: · All designs are based upon 95% coverage within the coverage areas for an 802.11n 5GHz design @ - 65dBm or better. · Coverage for 802.11n 2.4 GHz with be @ -67dBm or better · Channel Plan for the 2.4 GHz Plan will only use channels 1, 6, 11. · Channel Plan for the 5 GHz Plan will use channels 36+, 44+, 52+, 60+, 149+, 157+. (UNII-2 Extended optional) · Channel Plan for the 5 GHz Plan will be based upon 40 GHz Channel Bonding · User Capacity Requirements of 1 client device per seat in the lecture halls. · User Capacity Requirements of 3 client devices per bedroom in the residence halls. · Access Points will be designed for 40 connections per AP to provide optimal experiences for typical web browsing and email applications. · Make and Model of Client Requested APs: o Cisco Aironet 3500 Series Access Point (AIR-CAP3502I-x-K9) o Cisco Aironet 3600 Series Access Points · Outdoor units will be installed to in climate and weather protected boxes. - Build a WLAN design to incorporate wall attenuation factors based upon on site measurements for absorption (when provided) and industry standards for reflection of the identified building materials - The entire wireless network design will be constructed with uniform transmit power for all Access Points (except in the Lecture Halls where low power APs will be deployed as required for density issues). - Stairwells, storage areas and elevators do not require coverage. *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Barros, Jacob *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2013 2:28 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we’re lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We’d like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edu mailto:jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178 tel:574.372.5100%20x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
Things like iPhones are a lot lower than 25 mW. Closer to 17. Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Brisson Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel(r) Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edumailto:dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we're lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We'd like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edumailto:jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178tel:574.372.5100%20x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
This blog post at aerohive has good info on determining transmit power on devices. Interesting that the report lists different power levels at different frequencies. http://blogs.aerohive.com/blog/the-network-revolution/apple-ipad-3-and-other-mobile-device-wi-fi-output-power -- Jason Watts Pratt Institute, Academic Computing Senior Network Administrator Sent from my iPhone On Dec 12, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: Things like iPhones are a lot lower than 25 mW. Closer to 17. Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Brisson Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we’re lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We’d like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
As a good example I was down in an area just yesterday that mentioned of poor signal and I initially went down with my nexus 7 and my analyzer program and could barely get -80 dbm. I found it very odd so I went back and got my laptop with Ekahau and my ekahau usb-300(?) nic and was easily getting 65-68 dbm. I too should have surveyed with a lower power setting on my nic. Craig Eyre Network Analyst IT Services Department Mount Royal University 4825 Mount Royal Gate SW Calgary AB T2P 3T5 P. 403.440.5199 E. ce...@mtroyal.ca The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. Vincent T. Lombardi Jason Watts ---12/12/2013 12:07:53 PM---This blog post at aerohive has good info on determining transmit power on devices. Interesting that From: Jason Watts jwa...@pratt.edu To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU, Date: 12/12/2013 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Sent by: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU This blog post at aerohive has good info on determining transmit power on devices. Interesting that the report lists different power levels at different frequencies. http://blogs.aerohive.com/blog/the-network-revolution/apple-ipad-3-and-other-mobile-device-wi-fi-output-power -- Jason Watts Pratt Institute, Academic Computing Senior Network Administrator Sent from my iPhone On Dec 12, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: Things like iPhones are a lot lower than 25 mW. Closer to 17. Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile From:The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Brisson Sent:Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39 PM To:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we’re lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We’d like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. inline: graycol.gif
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
Also, coming in a bit late, but I am beginning to think the best method for my reshalls anyway is to put an AP in every other room, as they run linearly down a hallway. Then stagger the floor above to offset by one room. We've been doing every 3rd room lately and while it seems adequate, I think for density purposes, as well as signal level, moving to the every other room makes sense in the long run. As someone else mentioned, power output levels are one thing, antenna performance is another and then one still doesn't know anything about the device's' receive sensitivity which is another factor in the RF realm. On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Dan Brisson dbris...@uvm.edu wrote: Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we’re lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We’d like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178574.372.5100%20x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Michael Sjulstad -RML 258 Network/Electronics Engineer Information Technology St. Olaf College Northfield, MN 55057 Ph: 507-786-3835 Email: sjuls...@stolaf.edu ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
Yikes, didn't think they were weak but it has been a while since I've looked. Based on that, are folks aiming to accommodate that weak of a signal at -65 or close to that? -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/12/13, 1:54 PM, Turner, Ryan H wrote: Things like iPhones are a lot lower than 25 mW. Closer to 17. Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile *From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Dan Brisson *Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu mailto:dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we're lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We'd like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edu mailto:jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178 tel:574.372.5100%20x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
To put it in perspective, the transmit powers for iPhone 5 (yanked from: http://blogs.aerohive.com/blog/the-network-revolution/apple-iphone-5-wi-fi-specs) Frequency bands supported: *2.4 GHz ISM (Channels 1 - 11), Power Output ~16dBm *5 GHz UNII-1 (Channels 36 - 48), Power Output ~14dBm *5 GHz UNII-2 (Channels 52 - 64), Power Output ~13.5dBm *5 GHz UNII-2Ext. (Channels 100 - 140), Power Output ~12dBm *5 GHz UNII-3 (Channels 149 - 161), Power Output ~13dBm *5 GHz ISM (Channel 165), Power Output ~13dBm - See more at: http://blogs.aerohive.com/blog/the-network-revolution/apple-iphone-5-wi-fi-specs#sthash.8jMYDOni.dpuf Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Brisson Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:57 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Yikes, didn't think they were weak but it has been a while since I've looked. Based on that, are folks aiming to accommodate that weak of a signal at -65 or close to that? -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edumailto:dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/12/13, 1:54 PM, Turner, Ryan H wrote: Things like iPhones are a lot lower than 25 mW. Closer to 17. Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Brisson Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel(r) Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edumailto:dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we're lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We'd like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edumailto:jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178tel:574.372.5100%20x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
It seems to me to be completely impractical from a planning and budgetary perspective to be increasing the density of AP's on an annual basis due to poor client design, whether low transmit power, antenna deficiency, or insufficiently well designed front-ends. If a device can't connect to the same wireless network, side by side with last year's device, then from my perspective, that's an issue with the device, not an infrastructure issue. Thanks -- ian Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and misspelling. From: Turner, Ryan Hmailto:rhtur...@email.unc.edu Sent: 12/12/2013 18:54 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Things like iPhones are a lot lower than 25 mW. Closer to 17. Ryan H Turner Senior Network Engineer The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill CB 1150 Chapel Hill, NC 27599 +1 919 445 0113 Office +1 919 274 7926 Mobile From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Brisson Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:39 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning Coming in a little late on this thread, but Tristan brings up an excellent point. We are dealing with multiple areas in our dorms where AirMagnet Survey with the AirMagnet a/b/g/n card had a much better RSSI/SNR than the student with an iPad or iPhone has. What we should have done when surveying was to turn down the TX power to something like 25mW, which would more closely mimic a tablet or smartphone. We are in need of a survey tablet upgrade and currently looking at a Dell XPS with the built-in Intel® Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 since that appears to have direct support within AirMagnet. But I'm considering also purchasing something like a Nexus 5 smartphone and using that along with the tablet to check RSSI. I would prefer to use an iPhone since that's what the majority of students have, but from what I can tell there's still no decent App that will give RSSI values. Curious what folks think of that strategy. Hopefully this is close enough to the main topic to not be considered hijacking. I had been meaning to get an email out on this topic. Thanks, -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edumailto:dbris...@uvm.edu On 12/11/13, 5:38 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote: Hi all, What device or test equipment is being used for the RSSI value? If we see -65dBm on a Fluke AirCheck, we’re lucky to get -72dBm on an Intel 5100 in an HP laptop, as an example. We’d like to pick a specific device, eg, an iPad and create standard measurements on such a device so the customer is empowered to report a fault based on data they have available. Tristan On 12 Dec 2013, at 8:27 am, Barros, Jacob jkbar...@grace.edumailto:jkbar...@grace.edu wrote: We are going into dorm rooms over winter break to review ap placement. Do any of you have a policy (written or unwritten) that sets a minimum RSSI for a space? For example, if the RSSI is -65 or lower then you shuffle or add an ap to the area? Jake Barros | Network Administrator | Office of Information Technology Grace College and Seminary | Winona Lake, IN | 574.372.5100 x6178tel:574.372.5100%20x6178 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
On 12/12/2013 5:11 PM, Ian McDonald wrote: It seems to me to be completely impractical from a planning and budgetary perspective to be increasing the density of AP's on an annual basis due to poor client design, whether low transmit power, antenna deficiency, or insufficiently well designed front-ends. If a device can't connect to the same wireless network, side by side with last year's device, then from my perspective, that's an issue with the device, not an infrastructure issue. Well, when most of us started wireless deployment, it was pretty optimistic to plan for a laptop per student / class seat / dorm bed, this was the same time we were doing ResNet plans with a port per pillow -- a plan which game consoles initially wrecked, now followed by BluRays and Smart TVs and femtocells and who-knows-what-else. And now for wireless, it's certainly not just laptops (we have more registered/identified BYODs than computers now). Wireless devices continue to explode... its not last year's device that can't necessarily communicate, it's the 3-4 extras today over the original device that cause the issues. If you designed for 2.4G power/distance back when 2.4G was in vogue, and 5G was either ancient (11a) or new again (11n), it wasn't necessarily a design goal, and 5G doesn't tolerate walls, etc as well. Not sure about 11ac, but 11ad at even higher frequencies will penetrate even less. So yeah, if we had to do it over again AND knew what we know today... sure. How many deployed 11a/b/g over 100Mb ports? And out of those, how many were Cat6/6A? Regretting any of those decisions yet? Just give it time :) Things evolve. I'd agree they should last longer than last year but things change *fast* in this business :) Jeff ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
It not just poor client design, however (and I can't really always call it poor design, because who here doesn't get peeved with a short battery life device?? Which is what low transmit power helps). We are really switching from a coverage based design to capacity based design. If we want people to be able to do more with wireless, it can't come from just a change in wireless PHY. It also has to come from increased density, which will in turn lead to less shared bandwidth and higher through-put. I think the days of getting by with a coverage based deployment are coming to an end, and the days of planning for capacity is already here. The big question is how many of us have adjusted for this model? We still haven't. Ryan From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Kell Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning On 12/12/2013 5:11 PM, Ian McDonald wrote: It seems to me to be completely impractical from a planning and budgetary perspective to be increasing the density of AP's on an annual basis due to poor client design, whether low transmit power, antenna deficiency, or insufficiently well designed front-ends. If a device can't connect to the same wireless network, side by side with last year's device, then from my perspective, that's an issue with the device, not an infrastructure issue. Well, when most of us started wireless deployment, it was pretty optimistic to plan for a laptop per student / class seat / dorm bed, this was the same time we were doing ResNet plans with a port per pillow -- a plan which game consoles initially wrecked, now followed by BluRays and Smart TVs and femtocells and who-knows-what-else. And now for wireless, it's certainly not just laptops (we have more registered/identified BYODs than computers now). Wireless devices continue to explode... its not last year's device that can't necessarily communicate, it's the 3-4 extras today over the original device that cause the issues. If you designed for 2.4G power/distance back when 2.4G was in vogue, and 5G was either ancient (11a) or new again (11n), it wasn't necessarily a design goal, and 5G doesn't tolerate walls, etc as well. Not sure about 11ac, but 11ad at even higher frequencies will penetrate even less. So yeah, if we had to do it over again AND knew what we know today... sure. How many deployed 11a/b/g over 100Mb ports? And out of those, how many were Cat6/6A? Regretting any of those decisions yet? Just give it time :) Things evolve. I'd agree they should last longer than last year but things change *fast* in this business :) Jeff ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
In certain areas, sure. One more thing we're going to have to divine from our tea leaves is which areas only need coverage, and which need the extra money sunk in for high capacity. Unfortunately, all it takes is a professor who wants in class laptop survey software getting scheduled in the wrong room to blow up your original plan. Personally, I'm still waiting for a vendor to release an AP with dual 5GHz radios, so I can just buy one of those to add capacity in that band instead of buying two dual band units and turning the 2.4 radio off. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: It not just poor client design, however (and I can't really always call it poor design, because who here doesn't get peeved with a short battery life device?? Which is what low transmit power helps). We are really switching from a coverage based design to capacity based design. If we want people to be able to do more with wireless, it can't come from just a change in wireless PHY. It also has to come from increased density, which will in turn lead to less shared bandwidth and higher through-put. I think the days of getting by with a coverage based deployment are coming to an end, and the days of planning for capacity is already here. The big question is how many of us have adjusted for this model? We still haven't. Ryan From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Kell Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning On 12/12/2013 5:11 PM, Ian McDonald wrote: It seems to me to be completely impractical from a planning and budgetary perspective to be increasing the density of AP's on an annual basis due to poor client design, whether low transmit power, antenna deficiency, or insufficiently well designed front-ends. If a device can't connect to the same wireless network, side by side with last year's device, then from my perspective, that's an issue with the device, not an infrastructure issue. Well, when most of us started wireless deployment, it was pretty optimistic to plan for a laptop per student / class seat / dorm bed, this was the same time we were doing ResNet plans with a port per pillow -- a plan which game consoles initially wrecked, now followed by BluRays and Smart TVs and femtocells and who-knows-what-else. And now for wireless, it's certainly not just laptops (we have more registered/identified BYODs than computers now). Wireless devices continue to explode... its not last year's device that can't necessarily communicate, it's the 3-4 extras today over the original device that cause the issues. If you designed for 2.4G power/distance back when 2.4G was in vogue, and 5G was either ancient (11a) or new again (11n), it wasn't necessarily a design goal, and 5G doesn't tolerate walls, etc as well. Not sure about 11ac, but 11ad at even higher frequencies will penetrate even less. So yeah, if we had to do it over again AND knew what we know today... sure. How many deployed 11a/b/g over 100Mb ports? And out of those, how many were Cat6/6A? Regretting any of those decisions yet? Just give it time :) Things evolve. I'd agree they should last longer than last year but things change *fast* in this business :) Jeff ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
We're in the process, right now. We've got basic coverage, and in the classrooms we've tried to accommodate for higher density. However, with 3, 4 or more devices per student - or person really - we're looking at a refresh of the 1,400 APs we have now and effectively doubling that - or more. Sure, this is a back of the envelope budget number, but it's also based on the demands from our user community with multiple devices, buildings with LEED certification that cell phones won't work inside well, and RF doesn't penetrate concrete and rebar filled cinder block walls very well. Shrink the cell, the AP doesn't have to transmit as high of a power, and there's hopefully less interference from the Xbox controllers, microwave ovens, cordless phones, etc. etc. etc. We basically did coverage based design with ROWN v1.0 back in 2005, and have migrated in the new construction to capacity based design. With a refresh of network hardware (due to EOS/EOL notices from multiple vendors on our specific hardware standard models), we're looking to make it another 8 - 10 years with a new focus on capacity. It's not as if users are going to quit having multiple devices. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
Well, the problem is with the natural attenuation of the 5 gig band. Since it can only go half the distance that 2.4 can go with the same power level, you are going to have to space these things apart if you want people to move from cell to cell on the 5 gig band and maintain a high data rate. No easy way to skin this cat ☺ From: Frank Sweetser [mailto:f...@wpi.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:41 PM To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv; Turner, Ryan H Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning In certain areas, sure. One more thing we're going to have to divine from our tea leaves is which areas only need coverage, and which need the extra money sunk in for high capacity. Unfortunately, all it takes is a professor who wants in class laptop survey software getting scheduled in the wrong room to blow up your original plan. Personally, I'm still waiting for a vendor to release an AP with dual 5GHz radios, so I can just buy one of those to add capacity in that band instead of buying two dual band units and turning the 2.4 radio off. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Turner, Ryan H rhtur...@email.unc.edumailto:rhtur...@email.unc.edu wrote: It not just poor client design, however (and I can’t really always call it poor design, because who here doesn’t get peeved with a short battery life device?? Which is what low transmit power helps). We are really switching from a coverage based design to capacity based design. If we want people to be able to do more with wireless, it can’t come from just a change in wireless PHY. It also has to come from increased density, which will in turn lead to less shared bandwidth and higher through-put. I think the days of getting by with a coverage based deployment are coming to an end, and the days of planning for capacity is already here. The big question is how many of us have adjusted for this model? We still haven’t. Ryan From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Kell Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning On 12/12/2013 5:11 PM, Ian McDonald wrote: It seems to me to be completely impractical from a planning and budgetary perspective to be increasing the density of AP's on an annual basis due to poor client design, whether low transmit power, antenna deficiency, or insufficiently well designed front-ends. If a device can't connect to the same wireless network, side by side with last year's device, then from my perspective, that's an issue with the device, not an infrastructure issue. Well, when most of us started wireless deployment, it was pretty optimistic to plan for a laptop per student / class seat / dorm bed, this was the same time we were doing ResNet plans with a port per pillow -- a plan which game consoles initially wrecked, now followed by BluRays and Smart TVs and femtocells and who-knows-what-else. And now for wireless, it's certainly not just laptops (we have more registered/identified BYODs than computers now). Wireless devices continue to explode... its not last year's device that can't necessarily communicate, it's the 3-4 extras today over the original device that cause the issues. If you designed for 2.4G power/distance back when 2.4G was in vogue, and 5G was either ancient (11a) or new again (11n), it wasn't necessarily a design goal, and 5G doesn't tolerate walls, etc as well. Not sure about 11ac, but 11ad at even higher frequencies will penetrate even less. So yeah, if we had to do it over again AND knew what we know today... sure. How many deployed 11a/b/g over 100Mb ports? And out of those, how many were Cat6/6A? Regretting any of those decisions yet? Just give it time :) Things evolve. I'd agree they should last longer than last year but things change *fast* in this business :) Jeff ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiFi planning
On 13/12/13 07:40, Frank Sweetser wrote: In certain areas, sure. One more thing we're going to have to divine from our tea leaves is which areas only need coverage, and which need the extra money sunk in for high capacity. Unfortunately, all it takes is a professor who wants in class laptop survey software getting scheduled in the wrong room to blow up your original plan. Personally, I'm still waiting for a vendor to release an AP with dual 5GHz radios, so I can just buy one of those to add capacity in that band instead of buying two dual band units and turning the 2.4 radio off. Some vendors have APs with radios that can work on either 2.4 or 5GHz. Meru and Xirrus are the ones that come to mind, I can't remember if any other vendors offer that. -- James Andrewartha Network Projects Engineer Christ Church Grammar School Claremont, Western Australia Ph. (08) 9442 1757 Mob. 0424 160 877 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
