Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 06:54 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Harald Braumann wrote: On Tue, 12 May 2009 14:41:48 -0700 Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. From http://cgit.freedesktop.org/hal/tree/NEWS: ---8-- == HAL 0.5.13 == Released Month 00, 2009. Requirements for HAL 0.5.13: - Linux kernel = 2.6.22(CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED=n) - udev = 125 (Linux only) - util-linux-ng= 2.15 ... ---8-- Doesn't look too OS-agnostic to me. You certain those aren't the requirements for if using Linux, this is the minimum version of these Linux components? I haven't checked HAL 0.5.13, but we're using HAL input hotplug on Solaris OpenSolaris successfully today. As is FreeBSD. robert. -- Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net 2Hip Networks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 03:24:27PM -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: Colin Guthrie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. Well, there's DeviceKit, but I don't think anyone has any plans for DeviceKit-input or DeviceKit-graphics. I'd personally like to see an abstraction layer rather than putting one into Xorg. Me too, but DeviceKit won't be it. Cheers, Daniel signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, 12 May 2009 14:41:48 -0700 Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. From http://cgit.freedesktop.org/hal/tree/NEWS: ---8-- == HAL 0.5.13 == Released Month 00, 2009. Requirements for HAL 0.5.13: - Linux kernel = 2.6.22(CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED=n) - udev = 125 (Linux only) - util-linux-ng= 2.15 ... ---8-- Doesn't look too OS-agnostic to me. Cheers, harry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
Harald Braumann wrote: On Tue, 12 May 2009 14:41:48 -0700 Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. From http://cgit.freedesktop.org/hal/tree/NEWS: ---8-- == HAL 0.5.13 == Released Month 00, 2009. Requirements for HAL 0.5.13: - Linux kernel = 2.6.22(CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED=n) - udev = 125 (Linux only) - util-linux-ng= 2.15 ... ---8-- Doesn't look too OS-agnostic to me. You certain those aren't the requirements for if using Linux, this is the minimum version of these Linux components? I haven't checked HAL 0.5.13, but we're using HAL input hotplug on Solaris OpenSolaris successfully today. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 07:55:05AM -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Daniel Stone dan...@fooishbar.org wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 03:24:27PM -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. Well, there's DeviceKit, but I don't think anyone has any plans for DeviceKit-input or DeviceKit-graphics. I'd personally like to see an abstraction layer rather than putting one into Xorg. Me too, but DeviceKit won't be it. As in, you don't think it will happen for DeviceKit, or you don't want DeviceKit to be it? Yes. :) Cheers, Daniel signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Kevin Stange ke...@simguy.net wrote: I am trying to find out whether I can define options for non-input devices via HAL fdi files. My goal is to specify settings for sections like my video card, monitor or screen. I haven't been able to find anything that seems relevant anywhere and all examples I have found are exclusively related to keyboard or pointer settings. Is this possible (or planned)? No. Only the input devices pick up configuration through HAL, and I think people would prefer if that went away some day. -- Dan ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Kevin Stange ke...@simguy.net wrote: Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Kevin Stange ke...@simguy.net wrote: I am trying to find out whether I can define options for non-input devices via HAL fdi files. Â My goal is to specify settings for sections like my video card, monitor or screen. Â I haven't been able to find anything that seems relevant anywhere and all examples I have found are exclusively related to keyboard or pointer settings. Is this possible (or planned)? No. Only the input devices pick up configuration through HAL, and I think people would prefer if that went away some day. So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. The reason I kind of like this method is because I don't have to define the device in the xorg.conf, so if it's not present/detected I'm basically not telling xorg to expect it (or so it seems to me). Does xorg keep track of relevant sections should the devices appear via HAL later to load in their options? Right, those are the reasons the HAL fdi is being used now for configuration and it's the way you should be doing it if you want hotpluggable input devices. The reason it's disliked is because it's an abuse of HAL's fdi system. No one has a plan for a better system wide configuration as far as I know, though. I have an idea for specifying an InputClass in xorg.conf, but it only exists in my mind. :) What is more being pushed for is that users just setup the input devices in their session rather than relying on a system-wide configuration. The input properties code supports this (try the xinput app), but it's not widely used yet. I suppose the definitions are necessarily more important for input devices which get hotplugged a lot more than video cards. The HAL hotplugging is only wired up for input devices. I think for video cards (or more likely outputs like monitors and projectors), the idea is to use drm to get notification from the kernel when hotplug events occur, but I could be way off base there. -- Dan ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
Colin Guthrie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, 12 May 2009 10:46:43 -0700 Dan Nicholson dbn.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Kevin Stange ke...@simguy.net The reason I kind of like this method is because I don't have to define the device in the xorg.conf, so if it's not present/detected I'm basically not telling xorg to expect it (or so it seems to me). Does xorg keep track of relevant sections should the devices appear via HAL later to load in their options? Right, those are the reasons the HAL fdi is being used now for configuration and it's the way you should be doing it if you want hotpluggable input devices. The reason it's disliked is because it's an abuse of HAL's fdi system. No one has a plan for a better system wide configuration as far as I know, though. I have an idea for specifying an InputClass in xorg.conf, but it only exists in my mind. :) What is more being pushed for is that users just setup the input devices in their session rather than relying on a system-wide configuration. I think this should really be the way to go. Though I guess that is more of a distribution issue, than one of Xorg. For the keyboard a call to setxkbmap should be enough. The input properties code supports this (try the xinput app), but it's not widely used yet. Thanks for the hint. I was looking for a tool to set pointer properties programmatically. I suppose the definitions are necessarily more important for input devices which get hotplugged a lot more than video cards. The HAL hotplugging is only wired up for input devices. I think for video cards (or more likely outputs like monitors and projectors), the idea is to use drm to get notification from the kernel when hotplug events occur, but I could be way off base there. I hope not. The sooner HAL dies the better (don't want to start a flame war here. but I have a strong aversion to HAL). harry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 15:24 -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: Colin Guthrie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. Well, there's DeviceKit, but I don't think anyone has any plans for DeviceKit-input or DeviceKit-graphics. I'd personally like to see an abstraction layer rather than putting one into Xorg. You don't consider HAL an reasonable abstraction layer? robert. -- Dan ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg -- Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net 2Hip Networks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 15:24 -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: Colin Guthrie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. Well, there's DeviceKit, but I don't think anyone has any plans for DeviceKit-input or DeviceKit-graphics. I'd personally like to see an abstraction layer rather than putting one into Xorg. You don't consider HAL an reasonable abstraction layer? Not when its creators are trying to get rid of it. -- Dan ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 16:16 -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 15:24 -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: Colin Guthrie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. Well, there's DeviceKit, but I don't think anyone has any plans for DeviceKit-input or DeviceKit-graphics. I'd personally like to see an abstraction layer rather than putting one into Xorg. You don't consider HAL an reasonable abstraction layer? Not when its creators are trying to get rid of it. Well, I think that our gnome folks are planning to support DeviceKit as it's replacement. If we are going to support dynamic device detection, then I think the most reasonable approach is to support an OS independent or at least cross platform API. robert. -- Dan -- Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net 2Hip Networks signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: Xorg support to import options for non-Input sections?
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 16:16 -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Robert Noland rnol...@2hip.net wrote: On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 15:24 -0700, Dan Nicholson wrote: On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com wrote: Colin Guthrie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Kevin Stange at 12/05/09 18:23 did gyre and gimble: So you're saying this HAL method is widely (or narrowly, but by the right people) disliked? Using Gentoo it seems to be encouraged, and I've seen indications other distros (like Ubuntu) have picked up the technique as well. HAL will eventually be phased out in favour of getting more direct information from udev. I'm not sure how that will impact the Xorg side of things but i'd imagine the end solution will be in some way related to udev. (this is just a guess tho) And for non-Linux systems? HAL is OS-agnostic, udev seems very Linux specific. Well, there's DeviceKit, but I don't think anyone has any plans for DeviceKit-input or DeviceKit-graphics. I'd personally like to see an abstraction layer rather than putting one into Xorg. You don't consider HAL an reasonable abstraction layer? Not when its creators are trying to get rid of it. Well, I think that our gnome folks are planning to support DeviceKit as it's replacement. If we are going to support dynamic device detection, then I think the most reasonable approach is to support an OS independent or at least cross platform API. Right. The issue is that DeviceKit is not a catch all for any piece of hardware that could show up like HAL is. There are smaller niche DKs like DeviceKit-disks and DeviceKit-power right now. Like I said, I don't think anyone is planning DeviceKit-input to abstract input devices. -- Dan ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
