Re: [Zope-dev] Two visions?
Geoff Davis wrote: No, I think I understood you. I was being sloppy in my use of language. I should have said something more like Zope 3 then becomes an application server built around the Zed library. Or Zed is the part of Zope that can be used without Zope. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Two visions
Jim Fulton wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip] Sounds like the original vision of Zope 3 without the X. I thought we never got around to developing this stuff the last time. Actually, no. We originally said that we would provide a transition path. I said over and over that this was *not* going to be backward compatibility. I guess this was too complex a message. I think your post proves that it was. I know exactly what was said, and we, the Zope community, said it wrong, including the backwards compatibility bit. I quote the release notes for Zope X3.0: The X in the name stands for experimental, since this release does not try to provide any backward-compatibility to Zope 2. What do you think that implied? Maybe you didn't say backwards compatibility, but our release notes certainly said something about this. This message wasn't new: 1b. Zope 3X is the preliminary version of Zope 3. It is built from the ground up, paying attention to the lessons learned from Zope 2 and CMF. It is not a product but intended to let developers get familiar with the new architecture early. 1c. Zope 3 is the mainline release intended for production use and including backwards compatibility to Zope 2. It was here: http://cvs.zope.org/Zope3/doc/security/background.rst?rev=1.3 I had a lot more to say in this posting which I recommend you read: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-February/017939.html [snip snip] I don't see how *saying* what Zope 5 will contain will make it *exist* any time sooner. You seem to be arguing against a roadmap, which is puzzling. Obviously, predictions of the future are imperfect. I'm not arguing against a vision. I'm worried about marketing and what we will be implicitly implying. I want to be very careful about roadmaps as we can't guarantee they will happen, and broken promises in this will be worse than no promises at all. I think, for now, our vision should be sketched with what we have right now (Zope 2 and Zope 3) and where we think they are going. Talk about it names we already know, or if we really make new things, new names that are not Zope for the time being. [snip] The current story of Zope 2, Five and Zope 3 gets us in the right direction (Zope 5, if you want to call it that, though I would definitely want to introduce yet another name in the mix), step by step. We don't promise too much to people. We don't raise the wrong expecations anymore. What expectations did we raise? See my referenced mail: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2006-February/017939.html AFAIK, the official story is that Zope 3 will eventually replace Zope 2 and that Zope 2 will be augmented with Zope 3 technology to make the transition easier. I don't think there are many people, if any, really working on making Zope 3 a credible replacement for Zope 2. There are people working on making it into something wonderful, but not a replacement for Zope 2. Do you agree that this is the current story? If not, and if *we* cannot agree on what the current story is, think how confused everyone else must be. I think that is indeed the current story. It's not complete: Zope 3 technology is replacing Zope 2 today in that I can write a Zope 3-like application in Zope 2. In that sense, Zope 2.9 *is* the Zope 3 without X. Zope 3 technology is not only in Zope 2 for the transition, but also because it's cool stuff we can actually use profitably now, not only because we might be able to transition to Zope 3 more easily in some future. I think part of this story is that the Zope 2 people will work on Zope 3-based technology to replace bits of Zope 2 step by step, bit by bit. I believe this is happening in the context of Five, the Zope 2 core (the event system), and the CMF. I think part of this story is also that Zope 2 is safe and is going to be around for a lng time. Emphasizing these bits of the story would be good, and I think we agree on that. We need to be careful though we also are seen to stay the course: introducing new version numbers and names of the mix is I think right now the wrong action to take. [snip] It won't contain the features you list unless someone actually does all that work. That's right. Someone needs to do the work. Similarly, Zope 3 won't be a replacement for Zope 2 unless someone does the work. What's your point? That we shouldn't plan? That we shouldn't have a common vision for where we're going, or communicate that vision? These are rhetorical questions... My point is: Have a vision, but plan step by step. Don't promote the presumed endpoint of the steps too much yet. Evolve the message step by step too. Change the message slowly, not all at once, to avoid creating confusion and unrest. Don't change the message before we're ready. Introducing a new message always carries a strong risk of being misunderstood. The alternative is to put Zope 5 in the nebulous future when all the work
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Two visions
Jim Fulton wrote: [snip] I think that having one name for two radically different, though related, things is very confusing. There are really 2 main technologies that people care about: 1. The Zope app server. This is characterized by things like an object file system, through-the-web scripting and/or development, pluggable course-grained add-ons, etc. I must warn you that what you call 'app server' is not what I call app server; I believe that using the word appserver for this set of technologies could be very confusing to people. I believe Zope 3 is an application server. I believe, say, Django is an application server too, even though as far as I know it lacks an object file system and through the web scripting. Can we find another word for what you mean? Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Two visions
On Mar 3, 2006, at 3:08 AM, Max M wrote: Splitting up Zope to let people use seperate pieces of Zope aka Zed is not a valid reason. Good software practise is a valid reason. But catering for those few developers that wants to use just a few pieces is probably not worth the effort. Here's one of the reasons I want good packaging: I'd like to continue using Zope-the-technology even if the Zope-the-brand loses all recognition. Whether in the future I'm working on DjangoRailsGears 3.0 or Zope3006 or Plone-NG, I'd like to be able to carry the various bits of technology that make up Zope around with me reasonably easily and run it under different Python platforms. I say this with my cynical and Zope-bigoted consultant hat on. There. I said it. ;-) - C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Two visions
[ Philipp von Weitershausen ]: It's not about sacrificing the Zope-the-app-server brand. It's actually about growing it in the sense that it becomes much clearer WHAT THE HELL Zope actually is. Or can you explain what Zope is in one sentence? But it all comes down to the depths (or shallowness) of defining 'explain'. There is at least one definition of 'explain' where a Zope definition could take less than a page or a book. ;o) A middleware for building web applications from an integrated pack of servers (HTTP, FTP, XML_RPC, WebDAV), databases (OO, Relational) and engines (language and template). I surely can't. I currently need more than a page in my book. Which I have and consider a good book by the way. The important thing I'd like to say is that Zope *is* a brand here in Brazil. Companies identify themselves having expertise in Zope and Plone technologies. Not just the former or just the latter. Even though there are clients looking for Plone, they know (at least most of us make sure they do) that Zope is needed. Rocky Burt is right, the naming actually confuses the heck out of people. In that sense, Zope X3 was not such a bad idea that it clearly said that Zope 3 is totally different. Just the 'X' itself standing for 'eXperimental' was bad Zope3-marketing in itself, so we dropped it. Yes, I could not agree more that some effort must be taken to clear up the confusion about Zope versioning for both developers and client users. But specially for newcomer-developers, those who do not follow closely the community activity get bitten by Zope version-diversity: 2.8.x, 2.9.x and 3.x I will also note that Jim's proposal is really not a lot about naming (he wants to stay out of it) but about focusing effort in ONE application server and ONE set of reusable libraries. That is very welcome indeed! efforts seems to suggest to come up differnet names for the two things, but that doesn't mean they can't still be related in a brand naming sense (e.g. Zope and zopelib or somethign like that). I acknowledge the importance of whatever name is chosen, a direct reference to Zope is desirable. cheers, Rod Senra http://rodrigo.senra.nom.br ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope 2.9 releases for Windows?
Andreas Jung wrote: I think one needs to be Manager to upload content to the Products area on zope.org. I would give the new window maintainer a local Manager role in this case...so who is willing to care about the future Windows build? I would like to see a longer commitment for this job. Me! with some provisos: - if I need to build something, could someone give me an off-list poke so I remember to do it - I have the tools, but I don't have the knowledge - I may come crying for help if the build process breaks... Now, should I go for it? cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 2.9 releases for Windows?
Sidnei da Silva wrote: | OK, are either you (or anyone else at Enfold) or Tim going to roll the | 2.9.1 binary or would you like me to pick it up from now on? Can't promise anything about 2.9.1. It might happen later on though. I'm happy to pick this up, just gimme the nod! Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 2.9 releases for Windows?
On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 05:34:49PM +, Chris Withers wrote: | Sidnei da Silva wrote: | | OK, are either you (or anyone else at Enfold) or Tim going to roll the | | 2.9.1 binary or would you like me to pick it up from now on? | | Can't promise anything about 2.9.1. It might happen later on though. | | I'm happy to pick this up, just gimme the nod! /me *nods* -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systems, LLC. http://enfoldsystems.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] [JOB] Zope Consultant, NYC
Zope Consultant, NYC My NYC client needs help understanding modifying a Zope-based CMS that was previously built for their client My client would prefer the candidate to work on-site, but it’s not mandatory; however, a face-2-face interview is required. Local candidates need only apply unless you happen to be in NYC, but live elsewhere. Initial project is 3-5 weeks at $300/day and 65/hour after 8 hours. Can be done part time, after work, from home, weekends, etc. Send resume and a paragraph on your Zope experience to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you, Beau J. Gould Open Source Staffing [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.open-source-staffing.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linuxjobz -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/273 - Release Date: 3/2/2006 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 2.9 releases for Windows?
Cool, I'll try and get the builds done on Monday, will report back with any problems... How should I run all the Zope tests once I have a candidate build? cheers, Chris Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 05:34:49PM +, Chris Withers wrote: | Sidnei da Silva wrote: | | OK, are either you (or anyone else at Enfold) or Tim going to roll the | | 2.9.1 binary or would you like me to pick it up from now on? | | Can't promise anything about 2.9.1. It might happen later on though. | | I'm happy to pick this up, just gimme the nod! /me *nods* -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 2.9 releases for Windows?
[Chris Withers] ... How should I run all the Zope tests once I have a candidate build? Section Testing Zope in http://svn.zope.org/Zope/trunk/inst/WinBuilders/README.txt ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: Two visions
Stefane Fermigier wrote: Strange how (most of) the Plone people seem to be so quick in willing to sacrifice the Zope brand :( In out world Zope doesn't have a brand. Plone has a it. Most of our customers doesn't have a clue as to what Zope is. As far as I can tell, Zope is a developers brand. No end users (customers) starts up with Zope anymore. Rather they go straight to Plone/CPS etc. Splitting up Zope to let people use seperate pieces of Zope aka Zed is not a valid reason. Good software practise is a valid reason. But catering for those few developers that wants to use just a few pieces is probably not worth the effort. Zope didn't become really popular before Plone/CPS etc. In my case customers are calling and asking for Plone solutions. Nobody where ever asking for Zope solutions! You had to push hard to make the customer use Zope instead of .asp/Java etc. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Two visions?
Benji York wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Good point. There's the question: Does this zed thing need a different name at all? If we want other people to pick it up, then it seems like a good idea to distinguish it from Zope-the-app-server. Paul seems to suggest that in his response. How about zopelib? If we want people outside of the zope community to use these components, they should not have the word zope anywhere in their name. If it says zope people will *always* assume it is for use only with/inside Zope (Zope 2 more often than not). Would we want people outside the community to do this? Would it ever be an audience bigger than 5-10 developers somewhere who would even have different goals than the Zope community. It is difficult enough right now to herd this flock of cats called Zope developers. Why would we want to make it even more difficult by adding other communities? Personally I could not care less if Page Templates are used in TurboGears and other frameworks. Splitting up software into chunks with few dependencies should be done because it is good software practice. Not to favour other communities. We should rather make a cool stack that will include people in Zope. Please remember It is *still* the sexiest technology out there! -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
