The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You are a Muslim.
Down with Islam.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com
Unsubscribe: send a blank email to
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just kidding. :) Just checked my spam and saw all these crazy messages.
Good luck getting the list back, or at least shutting it down, or getting it
moderated. Regards.
__
You are subscribed to Baha'i
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Are you guys on Facebook? If so, maybe connect with Baha'is there, I am sure
many Baha'is here are also on Facebook. Are you guys students, work in
corporate, or what? Do you have families, parents, wives, children? Any
Baha'is around where you live? Been to
And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is the equality of women and men. The
world of humanity has two wings -- one is women and the other men. Not until
both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak,
flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes
And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is the equality of women and men. The
world of humanity has two wings -- one is women and the other men. Not until
both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak,
flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes
Universal Education: The decision-making agencies involved would do well to
consider giving first priority to the education of women and girls... (The
Promise of World Peace)
World Peace: The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality
between the sexes, is one of the
Does anyone know if there are any Hindus or Buddhists in Egypt, and if so, what
would they use to identify themselves if the only 3 options are Jewish,
Christian, and Muslim (there is not even an other category)? I cannot believe
that out of 70 or so million people there are no Hindus from
I understood from what Gilberto wrote: Intro: "From my side, there is also a whole larger picture." 1. "There are passages like the above in the Bahai writings which you canuse if you are explaining the issue to a Muslim."2. "...if Bahai were talking to a Christian they could quote
Gilberto: ...if you are using the words that Christians andHindus use and you seem to be taking advantage of the fact that theseterms are familiar to your audience, and you would be encouraging themto have a false impression of what Bahais really believe. Me: Hi Gilberto, If it just
...the part which really sounds like shirk. I'm not sure if you understood my point. You had claimed that Islam emphasized Muhammad's humanity because people weren't yet ready to understand the dual notion of humanity/divinity combined which is found in the Bahai faith. But hundreds of
Gilberto: Could you specify how they are actually different? Is there somespecific element of Bahai teaching which isn't found in Christianity?Or vice versa? Hi Gilberto!I think there are overlapping ideas, I would say parts of the concepts are found in Islam and others in Christianity,
Hi Gilberto, Thanks for the link to Abdu'l-Baha's provisionally translated tablet. I'll have to go back and reread Shoghi Effendi in World Order of Baha'u'llah http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-37.html, where he discusses it, Abdu'l-Baha in Some Answered Questions
to have a slave under this and that condition, given there is no definitive law forbidding slavery. But in this revelation I dont think slavery will ever be an issue because it has been categorically forbidden. Gilberto Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/11/06, Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTEC
I'm suggesting is that the morality (or immorality) of our actions issimilar. God made the world. God made the consequences of our actions.And God gave us minds and hearts capable of moral reasoning.And again, in particular, before Bahaullah declared that slavery wasprohibited, it was
That's a great way to describe it.Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To be very brief, I think a large part of the prophetic message isjust about clearly and persuasively rearticulating certain truthswhich are already accessible through moral reasoning.And another part of the
Hi Richard,Gilberto is right about this, I believe. The Guardian and Master also stated that nature is a reflection of the spiritual world and that we can learn a lot by studying nature. For example, Mr. Taherzadeh on many times (and I believe Dr. Hatcher does the same in his
Baha'u'llah writes:-Ocontending peoplesand kindreds of the earth! Set your faces towards unity,and let the radiance of its light shine upon you. Gather ye together,and for the sake of God resolve to root outwhatever is the source of contention amongst you.
Gilberto, thanks for link. Hopefullysolidaritywill spread quickly.
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC")
Baha'u'llah wrote:"Behold how the dream thou hast dreamed is, after the lapse of many years, re-enacted before thine eyes. Consider how strange is the mystery of the world that appeareth to thee in thy dream. Ponder in thine heart upon the unsearchable wisdom of God, and meditate on its
Susan,I really like how you make the following distinction in emphasis:Christianity -- Orthodoxy Islam -- Orthopraxy Baha'i -- CovenantialWhat about Judaism? Is it an orthopraxy like Islam because they have divine laws which they must follow to the letter?Would Christians
I'm not sure if you understand what I'm getting at. For instance,there are a number of places where from my perspective, Bahaiteachings clearly reject and contradict things in the Quran. Eventhough Bahais say they believe the Quran is the word of God. When I'min a less than charitable
Gilberto: But you *are* presuming to talk about the teachings of at least oneprophet and call them barbaric, inappropriate, genocidal, out of date.
I don't think it is presumtuous to say "Hey killing folks who areminding their own business is generally wrong" or "stealing is a badthing to
Gilberto:
How do you define "appropriate"? I would suggest we come up with somespecific moral principles, a set of criteria which makes sense, andwhich can be applied in different situations.
Hajir:
This is a great idea. The only criteria and condition that makes sense is God Himself.
Gilberto:
So I would say that to *some* degree, human beings have *some* capacity to tell right from wrong, apart from a specific text.Hajir:
Makes sense. But it is more than just coincidence, to Baha'is, that all of these changes in human thought (spirit of the age)took place around the
Gilberto:No, I'm not taking it personally. I know I didn't do it. But style ofyour (collectively, not individually) seems like it is yet anotherexample of how on the one hand Bahais claim to affirm Islam, while atthe same time try to delegitimize it.
Hajir:
Gilberto, you're not getting the
Gilberto: And again, I answer, nothing new has happened from 1843 to 1844 whichchanges the nature of human greed or human hands. Or from 1844 to1845. Or from 1845 to 1846. and so on.Hajir:
Sure there has.
In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah writes: "Open thou thine eyes to behold how a NEW
Good morning,
I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking at it is all that
Gilberto: I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahaitrying to better understand the Bahai faith.
Haj:
Tell me something I don't know. : )
Gilberto:I might just take you up on that. I"m curious though. Do you think itis possible to understand a religious text
Haj: Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Gilberto:Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in
Gilberto:
So do Bahais understand the Quran?Haj:
See Scott's response.
.
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC")
Gilberto:
Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where I"mwrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'mnot seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommitsomething important? Something else? What?Haj:
Youoversimplify Baha'i principles.
Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't just be a "fad". I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning based on more fundamental principles.
Gilberto, I agree. For this
Gilberto,
But there are parts of the shariah which I would include in that fundamental
essential aspect but which Bahais would not.
What is a fundamental essential aspect of the Islamic law that I as a Baha'i disagreed was essential? All religions teach:
1. pure and kind heartedness
2.
Gilberto,
I'm surprised you haven't brought up the concept of abrogation 'naskh'and progressive revelation within the Qur'an itself. Why do you object to progressive revelation and abrogation by Baha'i Writings over the Qur'an, but hide the issues over abrogration and progressive revelation
I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human life, are related to the essential fundamental principles.
So are you saying that it is an essential fundamental principle to kill apostates?
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that theProphet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compellingevidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, thefact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is nota
I'm very happy you said that, Gilberto: "So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong."
The problem is, it is "wrong" for a Muslim to become a Baha'i. This is a greatest form of challenge for any religion that springs out of Islam, especially a religion that
Gilberto:
I've said this before but the Bahai faith obviously sets up a hierarchy of different religions with the most recent religion (itself) on the top. And I think that is necessarily messed up.
Hajir:
Are you suggesting that Islam doesn't do that, while the Baha'i Faith does?
Gilberto:
So if you are married to the Bahai faith and think its the greatest religion in the world, that's your perception. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it the same way. And another person might be perfectly happy without being married to Bahai.
Hajir:
Are
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they havedisbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not fromamong them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but ifthey turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,and take not from among
"Whosoever killed a person unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (5:32)
"According to this verse of the Qur'an, if one human being is
Gilberto: I don't think Islam sets up a hierarchy of religions according totime, no.
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all?
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments
Gilberto:
No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If Johnis married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the mostbeautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmedwill also probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman inthe world.
Gilberto:Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. You know?
Hajir:
Hmm... what do you *really* mean by this analogy?
Gilberto:I see where you are coming from. But I would still label the Musliminterpretation of what Muhammad taught as "Islamic principles". TheBahai interpretation of
subjective... I meant subjective.
But I don't think I'm arguing over subjective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify it by more concrete means.
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all? Gilberto: I wouldn't call it a hierarchy. Hajir: Do you mean that Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith in this sense?Gilberto: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true(although many contain alot of wisdom
Hajir: What about the Hadith?
Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-payingnon-Muslims.
Hajir:
Please explain this Hadith to me:
"Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear
On 10/17/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, Obviously Baha'is believe that Islamic laws are unsuitable for the modern-times. That's why we have Baha'i Laws. You think its obvious. And I think its obvious. But apparently alot of Bahais don't want to
Max,
That's odd, because some of the messages don't even get to my inbox.
Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College
I agree that you have a valid concern but I'm not sure how far
that takes you. No matter if you wanted to substitute some
synonyms here and there, it seems pretty clear that the Bible is given some
kind of qualified/limited approval while the Quran is spoken of in
different, and higher
So if you want to prove something about the Bible you need to study the Bible specifically and where it came from and how it was put together.
Okay. Before we get there, can you tell me what the Quran says the reason is for God sendingHis prophets? I suppose there were many reasons, or
Gilberto: The Quran was a specific revelation given to Muhammad, and transmitted to the Muslim community and preserved by them.
Hajir: Agreed. Therefore, "the Gospel" must be the Revelation of God given to Jesus. Both of us already agree that Jesus was recipient of the Revelation of God. I
Human beings have the same basic needs And so if we have the
Quran, and the Quran (and sunnah, etc.) was
sufficient to guide the human beings living before 1844, and we still have
all those spiritual resources, then the same
resources are sufficient to guide human beings after 1844.
Gilberto:
What is wrong with imperfect traces of earlier revelation?
Hajir:
Because if they were imperfect for their time, they would not have been
sufficient traces of God's Revelation for their guidance.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail)
is
1. Hajir:
Doesn't make sense. This means that the resources available to the people before
622 (i.e. the New Testament) must have been sufficient to guide them for ever too.
1. Gilberto:
I actually have alot less of a problem with that than you do. I don'tneed to denigrate Christians
I don't think we are saying the same thing. Something I've realized a
long time ago in my discussions with Bahais is that Bahais tend to
have a VERY different understanding of the role of time. If we really
agreed I don't see why you would be asking the questions you are
asking or making the
Gilberto:
Do you think the Torah is sufficent now? Or would you say its deficient? Is the
Quran sufficent now? Or is it deficient?
Hajir:
I think there are two different parts to the Quran and the Torah. The
essential teachings and the social teachings. The essential teachings are for
the
Therefore, the *importance* of the literal, perfect accuracy of the Qur'an may be overstated by the Muslim community. That's a totally seperate question. What you are saying about the Quran doesn't follow from what you are saying about the Gospels, especially given what the Bahai
"How can they [Christians] be the People of the Book if their Book [Gospel] was really not among them? I hope I answered that with the movie analogy. I wouldn't say that the book is not with them. But I would question the authenticity of the book.
How can the book be with them and at
How can the people be expected to be guided by a Book that doesn't exist, by a God who is Just?
I think God also gave us a conscience, with an intellect, and criticalfaculties. We live in world where there are lots of religions and lotsof "books" out there. I don't think all of life is
The real question is how does the New Testament "The Gospel".
I see what you're saying. I think we are talking about two different things, so there are really 2 questions:
1. How is the New Testament "The Gospel"?2. How did existence of the New Testament qualify Christians as People of
You've only discussed free will.Gilberto:I don't see why free will is an issue in the above?
Hajir:
What I mean is, why the sudden change in God's way? Why does everyone get an imperfect version of truth except the people who lived after 622AD? It is more plausible that everyone was
The real question is how does the New Testament "The Gospel".
I see what you're saying. I think we are talking about two different things, so there are really 2 questions:
1. How is the New Testament "The Gospel"?2. How did existence of the New Testament qualify Christians as People of
If I understand what Susan is saying, she is not claiming that Pauline Christianity was the recipient of some special divine favor or gift (charisma), but that charisma (the personal magnetism of Christ) was routinized, or institutionalized, through the New Testament, the Church, etc. In
Scott's entitled to his opinion and should study issues from multiplesides, but if you are going to argue that the Quran which exists todayis changed from the original Quran and so the current Quran isincomplete, I don't think that position can be characterized as"pro-Islam" and it still
** I guess now, your question comes down to this, and I need to think about it a while: Do the Baha'i writings really say that the Qur'an is absolutely the perfect Book of God, word-for-word, and that (1) all the revelation given to Muhammad is really in the Qur'an, and (2) that "other
therefore, none of the Books of God, including the writings of Baha'u'llah, contain all of God's guidance.
This isn't really true, because since we are living in the time of the Baha'u'llah, I can say that the writings of Baha'u'llah *do* contain *all* of God's guidance for us.
Follow
Gilberto,
Is there a point, a comment, or questionyou made yesterday or today that I haven't responded to? I just want to make sure I didn't miss anything. I hope to get your thoughtful responses to some of the unanswered questions I've asked you too.
Thanks,
Hajir
Yahoo! Music
So I would say that since the Bahai writings distinguish between theQuran and the Bible and say that the Quran is entirely authentic(while not saying the same about the Bible) it seems like that wouldrule out a Bahai from accepting a "higher criticism" type of approach"notwithstanding the
Even the Baha'i Writings themselves speak of the Quran as being unadulterated. So, the question remains, if the Quran, which is the updated (in the sense of accuracy) version of the same Revelation of the past, and it hasn't become tainted over the years, why do we need another Revelation?
I think an approach to the answer involves admitting that the *authority* of the Gospel was deeper, more profound, more spiritualthan its literal, perfect accuracy. Therefore, the literal, perfect accuracy of the Qur'an may be overstated by the Muslim community.
Regards,
HajirHajir Moghaddam
of the Qur'an may be overstated by the Muslim community.
Regards,
HajirHajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think an approach to the answer involves admitting that the *authority* of the Gospel was deeper, more profound, more spiritualthan its literal, perfect accuracy. Therefore
But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out. The missing pieces are in the writings of Baha'u'llah.
It all seemslike a continuous learning process. My own statement above doesn't sit well with me.
I guess if I want tobe true to the message of
I think based on the Writings of the Guardian, we know that "The whole of the existing Qur'an is authentic." is true, at least this is how I understand it at the present time.
Now to my statement"But, there is a lot more that should have been in the Qur'an that was left out."No, I don't think
The larger point is that Bahais are different from one another just asMuslims are different from one another. And so if you have a "badBahai" and a "good Muslim" it is best to let God judge between them.Just because someone is a "Bahai" that shouldn't necessarily overruleother
In the case of Christianity, the New Testament actually contains onlya very small set of words attributed to Jesus. Jesus only taught forabout 3 years, partially in secret, and even towards the end of hisministry his closest disciples still didn't totally understandeverything he was
G: No, but I would say the accuracy and faithfulness of the message has been significantly compromised.
So on what basis do you accept the validity of Jesus as a prophet of God?
Most religions are positive in terms of the impact theymake on society. At the same time, most religions are
Muslims have the Quran (which was spoken by Muhammad) and have volumes of hadith (which are an extensive detailed record of what Muhammad said and did ondifferent occasions). So Muslims have more extensive, more directinformation about what Muhammad said and did and taught thanChristians
But in the case of Christianity, there was significant disagreementabout what the words of Jesus even were... [evidence for disagreement]
In the case of Islam, even sunnis and shias have the same Quran, andthe Quran is intact.
So again, the kinds of problems I'm talking about within
Using your own logic, Baha'is would be confident that they have a better understanding of the teaching of Muhammad than Muslims themselves do.No. Not at all. What you might be able to say is that Bahais can bemore confident that they have a better understanding of what Bahaullahtaught
Gilberto,
I think it is because we view society as always advancing. In this latest phase of human development (commenced with the proclamation of Baha'u'llah), the time of conflict and contentionhas come to an end. We believe that the next stage in the development of our society is globalization
I wouldn't say that the Gospel is simplistically NOT among the Christians. But is imperfectlyamong them. The New Testament contains some words and teachings whichprobably did come from Jesus (as). But it also contains things whichcome from Paul. And it also contains things attributed to
The crowds were attracted to Jesus and his miracles beforethe Gospels were written. The religious authorities of the day werethreatened by Christ, before the Gospels were written. etc.
I'm not sure if this is significant. The Qur'an wasn't compiled when the Prophet Muhammad gained
Baha'u'llah wrote:
"the whole of the human race can be illumined with the LIGHT OF UNITY, and the remembrance of His Name is able to set on fire the hearts of all men, and BURN AWAY THE VEILS that intervene between them and His glory."
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can
So from a Bahai perspective one can believe that there are accidental misquotes and modifications in the contemporary Quran?
No, based on my understanding, there are no accidental misquotes or accidental modifications in the contemporary Qur'an (unlike the contemporary Bible). Yet, these
If a Bahai is saying that the laws of Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on some level disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldomacknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.
Okay, even though I have not thought this through yet, I
Gilberto: But that's not the contradiction. If a Bahai is saying that the lawsof Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on somelevel disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldomacknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.
Even some of
Hi Gilberto,
Nader Saiedi, author of Logos and Civilization, sums up Progressive Revelation pretty well (pages 11-14), in my view. I'm interested in your comments of the following:
The materialistic logic is obviously rejected by Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah equally rejects the exclusivism of
Susan and Max,
I have heard that the only time Baha'u'llah uses the work "kafir" in the Iqan is when he quotes the Qur'an on page 117 of the Persian (Egypt 1934) and provides His commentary ("pas la'nateh khoda bar kafir-an"). From my understanding, the concept of "kafir" is not part of the
Susan and Max,
I have heard that the only time Baha'u'llah uses the work "kafir" in the Iqan is when he quotes the Qur'an on page 117 of the Persian (Egypt 1934) and provides His commentary ("pas la'nateh khoda bar kafir-an"). From my understanding, the concept of "kafir" is not part of
Re: Progressive Revelation
I still see it as a contradiction or at least, I haven't seen a satisfactory resolution.
Gilberto, What part of Saiedi's explanation I posted do you find contradictory or unresolved?
Hajir
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
Bahai believes that many of those commandments [of the Qur'an] are actually not valid, and unsuitable and inappropriate for the modern day, while claiming that thier own laws ARE suitable for the modern-day, then that would be a very clear example of Bahais claiming to be superior to Islam.
Hushidar Motlagh in "I Shall Come Again" references Bisharati Kutubi Asmani (page 281) as follows:
"The time of the advent of the Mihdi [i.e. the Bab to Baha'is] is equal to half of the smallest number divisible by the numbers 1 through 9." - Shaykh Ibn-i Arabi
Do the math and the number
Hi Fariborz,
No, the logic is actually based on the fact that Arabic numbers are read left-to-right while Arabic letters are read from right-to-left. So if you tranform the numbers 1-5-2 into Letters you get A-H-B. Since Arabic is read from right-to-left, you read it as BaHA, not AHaB. (Note
All,
Below are a few other verses ofthe New Testament that directly mention "the Glory of God". Since therevised versions of the Arabic Bible are readily available on the internet, I did verify that theycurrently use the wordMajd'u'llah. I assume the 1933 versions of the Bible used
Awell organized website that reviews factors that make the Baha'i Faith the fulfillment of Islam's mission, and defines purpose of the Seal of the Prophets, the Prophet Muhammad. See http://bci.org/islam-bahai/
* Promise #1. Islam's Goal:
"This day have I perfected for you your religion
--[Why did Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri use the title "Baha'u'llah"?]There are about two billion Christians in the world.There are over a billion Muslims. I'm NOT trying to accuse anyone ofthe Bahai figures of being cynical or dishonest but if I were going tomake a popular world religion I
Ron,
Unfortunately theABS session was not recorded.
HajirIskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Ron: I suspect that her internet access has been cut off by hurricane Katrina but I hope pray that she herself and her son are safe, healthy, and secure. This was a very devastating storm. Good
Gilberto on 8/28 writes:
Any orthodox Muslim site lookingcomprehensively atthe Bahai faith is going to be critical. It
would disagree with the Bahai understanding of "seal of the prophets" will disagree with how
the Bahai faith understands Islamic law, the nature of the mahdi, and other
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I've never seen a Muslim attack a Bahai (physically, verbally, or otherwise).PeaceGilberto
Gilberto,
I did a search in google.com for "Islam Discussion", clicked on the first link that popped up, IslamOnline.net, and search the
1 - 100 of 107 matches
Mail list logo
