Re: Sons of Abraham (was: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines)

According to the genealogy of bahai-library, I SUPPOSE Krishna and Buddha possibly descent from Japheth (Aryan people) son of Noah. And Zoroaster, from Keturah Jokshan DedanPatti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:

Re: Sons of Abraham (was: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines)

Interesting question. I guess Keturah's children might get little mention because it doesn't seem like promises are associated with them in the same way. Also, I've heard that in some rabbinic commentaries Keturah actually *is* Hagar. Basically the idea is that Hagar was a concubine when she had

Sons of Abraham (was: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines)

Does that need to be understood literally? I think the common Baha'i belief that Zoroaster, Buddha and Krishna are from the seed of Abraham is probably a myth. warmest, Susan Susan, With so much focus on Issac and Ishmael many people sometimes forget (or never hear about) the other children of

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Dear Hasan,I was speaking of the Manifestation to come. Will there be false claimants? There might be. If a claimant comes to light who bases his claim solely upon a genealogy then I would refrain from following him unless I was convinced his words proved his station. The best proof of the

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also another option which you offered. Gilberto, I specifically asked you to show me where *I* said anything like that about the Jews. You did not do so. But in addition I also made a statement which constituted an apology.

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I sent it again, my message ddidn't arriveI give less positivism and more credit to traditions and genetic lines, Shoghi Effendi and Nabil liked to draw Holy trees on religion and monarchs trees, explaining much times meanings within (the Bible contains a lot).Personally, I like to

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Dear Scott, A family tree showing he is a descendent from Baha'u'llah would

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Dear Gilberto, Khazeh persuaded me to rethink my position and accept what you felt to be an apology. You're welcome to stay. Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the future when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his "genealogy as "true", when it could have been forged?Its just a document, and we all know documents can

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Well, I think it would be neutral in effect. We do not, after all, believe in original sin. I think we will see any number of descendants of covenant breakers come to the faith over the next centuries. Is their forebear's sin there's as well?Regards, Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I don't know Scott I suppose next Prophet will be from Bah'u'llh's line, but nothing is written so far I think.Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the future

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

We don't have any basis of decision other than the spiritual decision when it comes down to it. We made the decision to follow Baha`u'llah because our spirit recognized Him, in the future that wil be the answer for anyone else as well.Regards, ScottHasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his family tree. In the future when a false claimant might arise, why should we accept his genealogy as true, when it could have been forged? Where does Baha'u'llah indicate that acceptance

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Well, I think it would be neutral in effect. We do not, after all, believe in original sin. If that's the case then what difference should it make if the next Manifestation descends from Baha'u'llah or not? The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail)

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

It doesn't, Susan. We will be faced with the same choice that we all had - the reliance on our own rational soul to choose the truth and follow it.Regards, Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see your point and agree, but would point out that we have accepted Shoghi Effendi before we read his

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Susan,I don't think it is necessary at all. I think He will be descended from Abraham, but then I am probably descended from Abraham and you too, as you have pointed out. A geneaology is no proof at all - the only proof could be spiritual, the only means of decision would be on perceived

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Scott, you may know 'Abdu'l-Bah mentioned four ways to get the truth (senses, reason, traditions, inspiration or faith), but He says the only "infallible" way is through the Holy Ghost. I know most of them are subjective, but...You wrote: "A geneaology is no proof at all"That

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

"That was a special indication (among others) from Siyyid Kazim Rashti to recognize the Qaim remember?" Dear Hasan, Indeed I do. But that was the Manifestation before this One. We are talking about She who is to come. "Just curious: Do you thinkImanate is not "a proof at all"

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I'm talking about the proof that Imams are descendants of the Prophet, because they claimed authority and you know they were, indeed, the legitimate successors of Muhammad. Nobody never confirm scientifically ADN's chains. Dear Hasan, Ali was an Imam even though he was not a

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Maybe I'm exaggerated about the importance of genetic lines, but I would like to follow the Muhammad, the Bb and Bah'u'llh genetic lines. From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of "spiritual genes".[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of spiritual genes. Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is related to everyone else anyhow. warmest, Susan

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through Aghsán or Afnán lines?If the answer is ‘yes’, then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy recognize it because of ‘siyyid’s denomination.If

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Possibly from past lines. I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnán and Aghsán. Dear Hasan, I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are more likely to want to hide their

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through Aghsán or Afnán lines? If the answer is ?yes?, then how can we sure He/She is? Dear Hasan, As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I'm not sure.[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: Possibly from past lines. I don't think you would like, but we can do this for Afnn and Aghsn. Dear Hasan, I expect in a few hundred years everyone will have some Afnan blood in their veins. As for those who descend from Covenant breakers, they are

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: As a historian I can't even be sure that Abraham ever existed. But if He did then I expect everyone will be a descendent from Abraham by the time the next Manifestation arrives. That is just the way demographics work. /For you a historian is the

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure - we need both his "Y" Chromosome DNA and his matrilineal mitochondrial material. Then we'll need the same for the line of Baha`u'llah - so we'll need to disinter either Bahas`u'llah or Abdu'l

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

too extreme no? you must be kidding,I thougtht there was another way like follow genealogical family tree but never desecrate holy tombs!...Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:So who do we dig up to get the DNA baseline? The Bab, since we have no direct descendants left, for sure

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Family trees are proof of nothing, really. They are at best a "contention". No, desecrating a tomb is not an answer, and getting actually genetic proof of anything is not going to be a possibility. The choice will have to be what it has always been, a spiritual decision, reached by taking free

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

You still joke? If family trees are nothing for you, then the hereditary principle (including our beloved Guardian in it) should be nothing but NOTHING for you until you check it in a laboratory! The same for the Imanate until you be sure or desecrate Imams holy tombs. The glorious lineage

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking.Think of it this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended from Baha`u'llah. Why can that family tree NOT be falsified? So, in that instance, it would prove nothing by

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

At 11:52 AM -0600 1/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From Adan to Shoghi Effendi, there is a continuous blood line, that is why I ask about the importance of spiritual genes. Dear Hasan, It is not a blood line that can really be traced historically. Give a few hundred years and everyone is

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

On 1/29/06, Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Susan, do you think next Prophet will be a descendent of Abraham through Aghsán or Afnán lines? If the answer is 'yes', then how can we sure He/She is? Historically, Siyyid Kazim said the Qaim (the Báb) was of pure lineage, people can easy

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

Gilberto, Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear that you are not welcome here without one? Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be

Re: A Prophet before one thousand years? - genetic lines

On 1/30/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, Did I miss your post apologizing to me, or did I not make it clear that you are not welcome here without one? I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also another option which you offered. But in