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Wine is najis in Islam for many schools. And in the Bahai texts
tobacco is described as very filthy and unclean.
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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In regards to this whole najas issue, it is not just
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On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical
reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its
revelation it was
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Isn't the concept of the Word in this sense date back to Plato, Platonists, and
Neoplatonists? The Logos (Word) is God, but is subordiante to God in such a way
as even though it is the same as God, it can be said to be a second God at the
same time. God and his
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Isn't the concept of the Word in this sense date back to Plato, Platonists,
and Neoplatonists?
Yes.
The Logos (Word) is God, but is subordiante to God in
such a way as even though it is the same as God,
The Logos in Neoplatonic thought is the first emanation from
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Dear Gilberto;
Thanks for your message.
A couple of points, since we are discussing differences:
Cleanliness and litAAfat (both physical purity and cleanliness and
spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is
certainly very much encouraged in
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A revelation direct from God? Can there be a revelation indirect from God?
I guess we could give Joseph Smith as an example. He could communicate with
angels and he had the spiritual ability to translate the Book of Mormon. The
prophet was Moroni from the
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Regarding your question about a lying impostor, etc. I would say that if
someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an
unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine
with my own judgement if s/he is true or a
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What about the restoration of an existing religion?
According to Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation anyone claiming authority
over the House of Justice would be laying claim to an Amr in that
sense:
The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of
a
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Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is?
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What about the restoration of an existing religion?
According to Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation anyone claiming authority
over the House of Justice would be laying claim to an Amr in
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Doesn't the UHJ only have jurisdiction over Baha'is?
Of course. And the statement whoso layeth claim to a revelation
direct from God is directed to Baha'is as well.
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Continuing...
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Gilberto;
Thanks for your message.
You are welcome.
A couple of
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So why should non-Baha'is care if Baha'u'llah says there will be no new
prophets for atleast 1000 years? (Some Pilgrim Note say 1000 years is a minimum
and it could be 6000 years to 500,000 years depending on the need of humanity.)
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In regards to this whole najas issue, it is not just that Baha'is
don't regard unbelievers as unclean, we also have no concept of ritual
uncleanliness in regards to certain foods as Muslims do. Of course, we
wash our food, but there are no foods, other than drugs and
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No, certitude is something else.
There is only One God. Not multiple Gods.
Sent by iPhone
On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Loïc ROYER l...@free.fr wrote:
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Belief is our only certitude! (or what?!)
:-)
hajmog a écrit :
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BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
Sender: bounce-511148-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 04:06:42
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
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But we get that info from the Dueteronomist source?
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On 26 Jun 2010 at 20:09, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I think it seems like you are twisting and mischaracterizing what I
wrote. Why couldn't one of the authors J,D, E or P actually have
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I'm wonder if other Bahais would agree or disagree with that way of
putting things.
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:56 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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the 10 commandments which are said to be written on tablets with God's own
finger.
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Dear Gilberto, some would agree others would disagree. These are all personal
interpretations.
We don't believe in interpretation of texts. Every Bahai comes up with their
own personal understanding based on the writings of Shoghi Effendi and the
Universal House of
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I'm wonder if other Bahais would agree or disagree with that way of
putting things.
I certainly wouldn't put it that way. Baha'is tend to see the Burning
Bush, the Dove, the Archangel Gabriel and the Heavenly Maiden (huri)
all as symbols of the Holy Spirit which
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Does the Baha'i faith have a Manifestationology like the Christology of
Christians?
Dear Stephen,
The closest thing we have to do is the description of the
Manifestation's station as given by Shoghi Effendi in the World Order
of Baha'u'llah. Also, the Iqan would be
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Does the Baha'i faith have a Manifestationology like the Christology of
Christians?
Dear Stephen,
The closest thing we have to do is the description of the
Manifestation's station as given by Shoghi Effendi in the World Order
of
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Alternatively we could see it as the Divine Nature of
the Manifestation communicating with His human nature.
Dear Susan, reading this over again, I think I disagree with this personally.
I think their human nature IS divine, rather than their human nature
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Dear Susan, reading this over again, I think I disagree with
this personally. I think their human nature IS divine, rather than their
human nature communicates with their Divine.
My statements regarding the distinction between the human and divine
nature of the
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Similar
statements have been made by Imam Ali.
I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a
Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them.
This to me disqualifies your explanation that all religions are equally true.
In one breath you
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Susan,
To me, the oneness of religion means that all religions foretold the coming of
Baha'u'llah.
Through all revealed religions, one can come to know about Baha'u'llah.
God is an unknowable.
__
You are
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is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like
that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the
Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now
Iskandar,
How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad?
on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com
Sender: bounce-511556-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:39:35
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Respect
: Respect for Islam
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Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy
Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy
as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times,
culture, language, etc
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Respect for Islam
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Isn't this actually what happened? People don't really believe in Ghosts, do
they?
From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
ReplyTo: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Subject: Re: Respect for Islam
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Isn't this actually what happened? People don't really believe in Ghosts, do
they?
From: iskandar
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On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed
comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least
some of the points I
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statements have been made by Imam Ali.
I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a
Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them.
One of the things that is a bit confusing about the Iqan is the that
the term Manifestation is used in
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Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy
Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of
wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His
times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the
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Who could blame them as he threatened the whole objectivity of revelation?
Dear Stephen,
If one understands that the Manifestation Himself is the Word of God
in the *primary* sense (a la John's Gospel) then I don't think the
objectivity of revelation is threatened at
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the Manifestation Himself is the Word of God
in the *primary* sense (a la John's Gospel)
Susan,
I don't think that's what's being argued. At least that is not what I have in
mind.
I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad,
nothing
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I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad,
nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written
down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word.
Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words.
Remember,
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I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad,
nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is
written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word.
Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words.
John's
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As I understand, from a literary perspective, these are real mistakes.
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John's Gospel, the Qur'an both assert that Jesus is the Word of God.
The Long Obligatory Prayer describes the Manifestation as He through
whom the words B and E (lit. Kaf and Nun) have been joined and knit
together.What is this other than the Creative Word by which God
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Are you aware that the Bab and Baha'u'llah made Arabic grammar mistakes?
How can you possibly believe someone who's is supposed to be the Appearance
of the One Who Sent the Qur'an to Muhammad, but can't figure out Arabic
grammar?
The Bab Himself explained this.
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Vernacular language and literary language are two differnet things. If you are
too literary common people won't understand you. They were trying to write so
that they could be understood and not so they could get an imaginary A+ for
perfectly pure standard
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Of course. The Manifestation creates a new religion. That's all. From a
scientific perspective, its not more mysterious than that.
And you know this how?
That's not how Abdu'l-Baha explains it:
The second sort of preexistence is the preexistence of time, and
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If I remember correctly, and Khazeh should correct me if I'm wrong, during
the battle of Siffin, the Umayyads resorted to a ruse (when they realized
that they would lose the war) by upholding Quran books on their spears at
which time `Ali's followers disobeyed Him and
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I don't think it is discourteous. If that's how he feels, the honesty
is refreshing.
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:08 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Susan,
This is not discourteous. It is fact.
Islam is veiled arrogance.
Sent by
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On 26 Jun 2010 at 20:09, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I think it seems like you are twisting and mischaracterizing what I
wrote. Why couldn't one of the authors J,D, E or P actually have been
Moses? And if so, his text would still be with us (mixed in with other
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I would suggest that even under the most liberal, minimally religious
Abrahamic perspective, Moses was a real person who received laws from
God (in fact Torah is sometimes translated as law.) And in fact, in
the Biblical Torah there are references to the laws of Moses
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But if you think it has been totally lost, then I think that
is a more scathing indictment of the integrity of the Biblical text.
Good point I agree.
But I don't think It is totally lost. It never was. Revelation and
inspiration must be different levels of the
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And I think this makes sense, because
the technological and scientific explosion
is attributed to the revelation of the Bab,
Whose role was to introduce the manifestion
after him.
But from a historical perspective,
The advances of society are apparently
unrelated to
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When Susan or other authors discussing Islam/Christianity make a
distinction between revelation and inspiration it has to do with
how big a role human mediation plays in the text. For example, Muslims
claim the Quran is revelation. That means that the words come
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For example, Muslims
claim the Quran is revelation. That means that the words come directly
from God and not from Muhammad. Muhammad isn't considered the author,
he was more a passive recipient.
Bingo. I think the difference is the definition of God.
Sent by
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I'm not sure that's the relevant difference. I think both Christians
and Muslims use both concepts. For example, even within the Bible
there are at least a few sections or isolated passages which are
arguably revelation, like the 10 commandments which are said to be
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Dear Gilberto, sorry I don't understand what you just said. And you rephrase
it? Maybe i wasn't clear. (or maybe I was too clear).
So i will rephrase too: I think Revelation itself is symbolic.
I dont
Sent by iPhone
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I honestly don't understand what you are saying either. Maybe if you
asked a more specific question we could communicate.
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 1:58 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Dear Gilberto, sorry I don't understand what you just
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Sent as PLAIN TEXT in case you prefer this
Dearest Gilberto Simpson
I was thinking of you this Sunday afternoon and was beginning to compose a
letter, a tentative, loving letter when i just saw that you have written to me
(personally) a most wonderful letter with
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Also we did study a lot of books in those days about the **Seal**
This point is not emphasized a lot
Namely
***There was therefore a shift in the attitude of Muslims to their Prophet,
and the factors underlying this change are relevant to our discussion. From
being of
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Hey everybody,
I tried to read carefully and the subject looks like hot between all of
us! ;-)
Just my experience, being educated in the catholic Church of Rome, there
is a clear difference between what is revelation (the gospels are the
words of God and that's why
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God decide, not us!
Excellent point. Since God must decide,
Each of us has to come to our own conclusion,
since none of us can claim access to God.
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Dear Gilberto,
You are right when you say that we shouldn't make any distiction between
prophets, as the prophets have NOT so much importance, they all were
just human but being the tools of God to deliver some revelations.
Anyway, we all human give so many
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Dear Hajmog,
Unfortunatly we don't know God exists, we just believe He is the Way,
the Truth and the Life!
Unfortunatly we don't know Muhamad, Jesus, Bahaullah (and many others)
are not frauds, we just believe they gave us part of the revelation of God!
;-)
Loïc
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Yes. :)
And sometimes, belief turns into
Certitude!
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Belief is our only certitude! (or what?!)
:-)
hajmog a écrit :
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Yes. :)
And sometimes, belief turns into
Certitude!
Sent by iPhone
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I'm not sure if you want me to respond but I'm feeling like this is
getting repetitive.
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
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Also we did study a lot of books in those days about the **Seal**
This point is
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Also, if the Manifestations are all equal, then nothing is lost or
deficient in just being Muslim. There is no need to prosyletize.
Perfect question Dear Gilberto.
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the 10 commandments which are said to be written on tablets with God's own
finger.
Gilberto,
As everything else I said, these are only my opinions. I think God did not
write the 10 commandments. I think God did not say anything to Muhammad.
I think Muhammad was
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In other words, Muhammad was referring to Himself when He spoke about God in
*the present tense*.
In thepast tense , Muhammad was talking about Moses, Jesus, and others when He
spoke about Allah
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And in the future tense, all prophets and messengers were referring to the Bab
And then the Bab was referring to Bahaullah.
When I refer to Moses Jesus Muhammad, the Bab and Bahaullah, I am referring to
the station of
nothingness before God, so that God can
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Also, if the Manifestations are all equal, then nothing is lost or
deficient in just being Muslim. There is no need to prosyletize.
Hi Gilberto, I cannot think of an answer to this. If God is equally accessing
through each of the manifestations, then there is no
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Here is a hadith which you may have heard before and which has come up
in our conversations before.
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 626:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Once while a Jew was selling something, he was offered a price that he
was not pleased with. So, he said, No, by
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I didn't say that. There are hadith were Muhammad (saaws) cautions
Muslims about the materials of the People of the Book. All I said is
that some earlier figures framed corruption in terms of interpretation
rather than textual changes.
Dear Gilberto,
Just because
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I think it seems like you are twisting and mischaracterizing what I
wrote.
How am I doing that?
Why couldn't one of the authors J,D, E or P actually have been
Moses?
Because there was no Hebrew written script at the time?
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Dear Gilberto,
Consider the following Qur'anic Surahs, 78, 112, 69, and also see 39 ::
Surah 78. The Tidings, The Announcement
1. Concerning what are they disputing?
2. Concerning the Great News,
3. About which they cannot agree.
4. Verily, they shall soon (come to)
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On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 10:41 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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The bottom line of what I said is that If Bahais said Muhammad
(saaws) is the last prophet and messenger and there aren't anymore
coming after him [fullstop] then there
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1. I don't think the Bahai Faith is consistently applyiing the
principle of not distinguishing between the (status and rank of)
different prophets. For me, a better example of what that would look
like are the Perennialists. But because of the doctrine of Progressive
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2. At the end of the day, even while using this language of cycles,
Bahais will still say that the Bab and Bahaullah are prophets /
messengers so that still is a basic problem from an Islamic
perspective.
More important than what I said in my previous message, is the
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:48 AM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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1. I don't think the Bahai Faith is consistently applyiing the
principle of not distinguishing between the (status and rank of)
different prophets. For me, a
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And a third explanation for why Bahais sometimes
Refer to and equal the Bab and Bahaullah
With past Prophets and Messengers is
Because (see my wikipedia entry)
The Mursil Himself gives Risalat
and ad a result acts just like a Rasul,
Acts in the function of a Rasul
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 8:31 AM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Dear Gilberto,
Consider the following Qur'anic Surahs, 78, 112, 69, and also see 39 ::
I'm not sure what you want me to see.
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So I don't think there is anything wrong with saying Muhammad was the
only Seal of the Prophets (where khatm means last). But (to use the
story you alluded to) I wouldn't say Muhammad (saaws) was better than
Jonah (as).
Beautiful. Agreed. Muhammad is the Seal/Last
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I think that the concept of progressive revelation in the way that you
explained it is an example of making a distinction between prophets.
The idea that your prophet (Bahaullah) was a fuller Manifestation than
previous prophets/messengers comes off as patronizing and
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Dear Gilberto,
That is a distinction in function not status or rank. The Qur'an
itself makes this distinction when it says:
253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others,
and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them
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I wouldn't insist that Islam was better than, or more
fulfulled than, or a greater manifestation than any of the
previous religions in their original form.
Dear Gilberto,
this is veiled arrogance.
May God protect us.
Sent by iPhone
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I wouldn't insist that Islam was better than, or more
fulfulled than, or a greater manifestation than any of the
previous religions in their original form.
Even if it is finally shown that Jesus and Muhammad
Were not actual real historic figures (some scholars have
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Even if it is finally shown that Jesus and Muhammad
Were not actual real historic figures (some scholars have argued thus)
Baha'is would still say that the Made-up Bible and the
Made-up Quran are the Word of God because it was
God's Will.
Back to my original
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God makes those distinctions. We don't.
LOL.And this is different from the Baha'i Faith how?
When Baha'u'llah explains in the Iqan how the Prophets are different
and how they are the same He is quoting directly from the Qur'an!
1. I wouldn't insist that all other
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These kinds of insults are unnecessary. Please observe courtesy.
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:20 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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I wouldn't insist that Islam was better than, or more
fulfulled than, or a greater manifestation than any
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Susan,
This is not discourteous. It is fact.
Islam is veiled arrogance.
Sent by iPhone
On Jun 26, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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These kinds of insults are unnecessary. Please observe courtesy.
On Sat, Jun
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:56 AM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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So I don't think there is anything wrong with saying Muhammad was the
only Seal of the Prophets (where khatm means last). But (to use the
story you alluded to) I
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I already show you.
Bahaullah revealed the Quran to Muhammad through Angel Gabriel.
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On Jun 26, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com
wrote:
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:56 AM, haj...@yahoo.com
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:02 AM, haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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I think that the concept of progressive revelation in the way that you
explained it is an example of making a distinction between prophets.
The idea that your
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I think that depends entirely on what corrupted means. There are
some Muslims especially in the earlier period who treated the Bible is
largely intact. More recent generations tend to be much more critical
because of the many apparent and real contradictions between
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
What exactly does it mean for a scripture to be incompatible with
academic scholarship?
What I mainly have in mind is the documentary hypothesis. The Quran
says the Torah was a revelation given
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What exactly does it mean for a scripture to be incompatible with
academic scholarship?
What I mainly have in mind is the documentary hypothesis. The Quran
says the Torah was a revelation given to Moses.
Dear Gilberto,
If you take the Qur'an literally on this
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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We don't say that the Bible is 'corrupted' as Muslims do.
I think that depends entirely on what corrupted means. There are
some Muslims especially in the earlier
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On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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What exactly does it mean for a scripture to be incompatible with
academic scholarship?
What I mainly have in mind is the documentary hypothesis. The Quran
says the
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Subject: Re: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments.
Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet
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I'm not sure if this is what you meant. I know that some people
(Bahais and others) try to get around the Seal of the PRophets concept
by saying that Yes, Muhammad (saaws) was the Seal of the Prophets but
So-and-so is a messenger. If I understand you I agree that the
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On 24 Jun 2010 at 21:02, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On the one hand, if say that Bahaullah represents this
radically fuller different level of revelation beyond prophet then
you take on a kind of triumphalist superior tone
I don't think this is what is meant.
: Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments.
Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that
Jesus
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-- Forwarded message --
From: Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl
Date: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: Respect for Islam
To: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com, Baha'i Studies
bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
On 24 Jun 2010 at 21:02, Gilberto
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sen, I disagree on a number of points... Just because it is a latter
development does not mean it, finality, is a wrong view. And you are still
asserting triumph of multiple manifestations over non-manifestations.
Sent by iPhone
On Jun 25, 2010, at 3:21 AM,
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