Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

> On 28 Nov, 2016, at 19:07, Dave Taht wrote: > > (as well as VR ones) VR gaming *is* pretty hot right now. Even the consoles are trying to get in on it, though I’m skeptical if even the just-upgraded consoles have the horsepower to really keep up. The big thing about

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Well, it would be good to know where the congestion is coming from, i.e. saying that "the network is congested" doesn't say which network. Since our downlink got upgraded, there is rarely an issue there but from time to time the comcast network just "goes down" in that it seems that nothing gets

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Stephen Hemminger wrote: > My experience has been that the media and developer attention span is short > lived, and maybe that is part of the problem. Well, in portions of the market, the only way to get attention is to buy it, with

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

My experience has been that the media and developer attention span is short lived, and maybe that is part of the problem. Gaming is a niche market, and therefore is easily ignored; plus the classic gaming market is dying and I am not sure anyone is really investing in it. The current hot topic

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:23 AM, Wesley Eddy wrote: > On 11/28/2016 10:12 AM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 4:48 AM, David Collier-Brown >> wrote: >>> >>> A short RFC with a clear summary would change the ground on which we >>> stand.

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On 11/28/2016 10:12 AM, Dave Taht wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 4:48 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: A short RFC with a clear summary would change the ground on which we stand. Include me in if you're planning one. Call me grumpy. Call me disaffected. But it's been 4 years

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Pedro Tumusok wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 1:48 PM, David Collier-Brown > wrote: >> >> A short RFC with a clear summary would change the ground on which we >> stand. >> Include me in if you're planning one.

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 1:48 PM, David Collier-Brown wrote: > A short RFC with a clear summary would change the ground on which we stand. > Include me in if you're planning one. > > --dave > > There are some RFCs that vendors uses for throughput testing, RFC2544 I have seen

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 4:48 AM, David Collier-Brown wrote: > A short RFC with a clear summary would change the ground on which we stand. > Include me in if you're planning one. Call me grumpy. Call me disaffected. But it's been 4 years into the IETF RFC process with codel

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

The biggest problem I see with speedtest-like network testing... is the tests don't last long enough. I've begun making that joke at every presentation - pointing at the bloat spike at T+18 or T+22 seconds - how many of you only use your networks for 30 seconds a day?

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

A short RFC with a clear summary would change the ground on which we stand. Include me in if you're planning one. --dave On 28/11/16 01:00 AM, Jan Ceuleers wrote: On 28/11/16 03:16, Jim Gettys wrote: Ookla may have made themselves long term irrelevant by their recent behavior. When your

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On 28/11/16 03:16, Jim Gettys wrote: > Ookla may have made themselves long term irrelevant by their recent > behavior. When your customers start funding development of a > replacement (as Comcast has), you know they aren't happy. > > So I don't sweat Ookla: helping out the Comcast test effort is

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016, Kathleen Nichols wrote: Most of the suggestions in this thread deal with Getting the Word Out. That's good - that's the declaring victory part. The bad news is that this is not our collective skill set. So that's the hard part. Who do you need to Get the Word Out to and

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

This went by in a previous posting I made: Ookla may have made themselves long term irrelevant by their recent behavior. When your customers start funding development of a replacement (as Comcast has), you know they aren't happy. So I don't sweat Ookla: helping out the Comcast test effort is

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

I never have any problem hearing you, Dave. Random stuff in-line. On 11/27/16 1:24 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > There *are* 430+ other minds on this mailing list, and probably a few > AIs. > > Sometimes I worry that most of our postings go into spamboxes now, > or that we've somehow completely

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

There *are* 430+ other minds on this mailing list, and probably a few AIs. Sometimes I worry that most of our postings go into spamboxes now, or that we've somehow completely burned people out since our heyday in 2012. knock, knock - is this mic on? On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Rich Brown

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016, Aaron Wood wrote: and call it a day. And those BSPs are _ancient_. I wouldn't be surprised to see 2.6 still coming out on new models, let alone 4.0. Most seem to be on 3.2 and 3.4, but I've heard people say Broadcom now has BSP for 4.1. However, since basically all

Re: [Bloat] Fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Dave Täht attempts to refocus the group, and asks: > Can I encourage folk to think big and out of the technical box? > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Dave Taht wrote: >> What's left to do? >> >> What else can we do? >> >> What should we stop doing? >> >> What can we

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Dave Taht writes: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> >>> On Nov 23, 2016, at 19:09, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, David Lang wrote: >>> Deploy what we already know to work on the

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:42 AM, David Lang wrote: > Most people not only aren't operating at 1Gb/sec, they can't buy a 1Gb/sec > line at any cost. I too have seen the bursty behavior that OP is describing. It's one reason why cake's estimator can't get a good result on cable. >

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Most people not only aren't operating at 1Gb/sec, they can't buy a 1Gb/sec line at any cost. 100Mb is getting more common, but the majority of people cannot buy a line this fast for any amount of money. 10-30 Mb is probably the range that "most people" have, with a large number stll having

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

I meant the actual physical link, not the provisioned rate. Most last mile tech encapsulates Ethernet frames into larger super-frames. Decapsulating the Ethernet frames is pretty much at 1Gb line rate. On my GPON link, with shaping in PFSense turned off, I regularly see 4,000+ 1500byte datagrams

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

> BQL for vmxnet3 (if possible). Virtual router are becoming common. BQL could be implemented in vmxnet3, but probably not in virtio. virtio defers freeing packets to try and have better cache behavior ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Can I encourage folk to think big and out of the technical box? On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > What's left to do? > > What else can we do? > > What should we stop doing? > > What can we do better? > > -- > Dave Täht > Let's go make home routers and wifi

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Jonathan Morton wrote: On 23 Nov, 2016, at 20:46, David Lang wrote: Do you need a device that ships with the fixes in it from the factory? I think this is what we should aim for. That would greatly simplify installation for Joe Average, and it could

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Sebastian Moeller wrote: On Nov 23, 2016, at 19:09, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, David Lang wrote: Deploy what we already know to work on the real edge devices and things get vastly simpler. One problem will be that the actual

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

> On 23 Nov, 2016, at 20:46, David Lang wrote: > > Do you need a device that ships with the fixes in it from the factory? I think this is what we should aim for. That would greatly simplify installation for Joe Average, and it could serve as an anchor point in the wider

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Rich Brown wrote: I feel particularly acutely the fact that we don't have a good "simple to deliver" solution today for the curious (not deeply commited) person. I was trying to help a friend with a TP-Link Archer C7, but was stymied because I can't simply install OpenWrt

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Benjamin Cronce wrote: Most people only have a 1Gb network link, umm, no, most people have FAR slower links, by an order or two of magnatude. David Lang ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > >> On Nov 23, 2016, at 19:09, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> >> On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, David Lang wrote: >> >>> Deploy what we already know to work on the real edge devices and things get >>> vastly

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 19:09, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, David Lang wrote: > >> Deploy what we already know to work on the real edge devices and things get >> vastly simpler. One problem will be that the actual edge devices are often ISP

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:54 AM, David Lang wrote: > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > >> If Comcast sells you 100/20 (I have no idea if this is a thing), you set >> your upstream on this box to 18 meg fq_codel, and then Comcast >> oversubscribes you so you only get

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:56 AM, David Lang wrote: > that doesn't even do 5GHz, so your wifi performance will be cripped by > interference and the lack of available bandwidth. > > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Noah Causin wrote: > > There is a company called Netduma which sells a

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

I feel particularly acutely the fact that we don't have a good "simple to deliver" solution today for the curious (not deeply commited) person. I was trying to help a friend with a TP-Link Archer C7, but was stymied because I can't simply install OpenWrt CC because of their "FCC fix". Besides,

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, David Lang wrote: Deploy what we already know to work on the real edge devices and things get vastly simpler. Sure! Sounds Great. How? -- Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se ___ Bloat mailing list

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

that doesn't even do 5GHz, so your wifi performance will be cripped by interference and the lack of available bandwidth. On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Noah Causin wrote: There is a company called Netduma which sells a product called the Netduma R1 Router. It's main feature is reducing lag. It does

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: If Comcast sells you 100/20 (I have no idea if this is a thing), you set your upstream on this box to 18 meg fq_codel, and then Comcast oversubscribes you so you only get 15 meg up part of the time, then you're still bloated by the modem. This is

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

There is a company called Netduma which sells a product called the Netduma R1 Router. It's main feature is reducing lag. It does this through QOS and GEO-IP Filtering. (Limiting available servers to your local region = reduced RTT) It seems relatively popular in the gaming world,

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Well, > On Nov 23, 2016, at 18:31, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Benjamin Cronce wrote: > >> If there is a simple affordable solution, say Open/DD-WRT distro based >> bridge that all you do is configure your up/down bandwidth and it applies >>

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Benjamin Cronce wrote: If there is a simple affordable solution, say Open/DD-WRT distro based bridge that all you do is configure your up/down bandwidth and it applies Codel/fq-Codel/Cake, then all you need to do is drive up awareness. A good channel for awareness would

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Pedro Tumusok wrote: > > If this something we should try, I can help out with the first point, but >> the second one probably needs local bufferbloat evangelists. >> > > I am not worried about

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Pedro Tumusok wrote: If this something we should try, I can help out with the first point, but the second one probably needs local bufferbloat evangelists. I am not worried about getting these people on board to show a solution. I'm worried that we do not have a solution

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

The bufferbloat site has lot of informations, but many are outdated (and also not very well organized/formatted). I'd suggest removing (or clearly tagging as such) all obsolete infos (I would also consider obsolete everything that was only needed before current Debian stable). I'd also like to

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On 23/11/2016 11:31, Pedro Tumusok wrote: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Kelvin Edmison > wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Nov 23, 2016, at 3:28 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson > wrote:

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Kelvin Edmison wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 23, 2016, at 3:28 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Nov 2016, Dave Taht wrote: > > I would like to see the industries most affected by bufferbloat - >

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 23, 2016, at 3:28 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2016, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> I would like to see the industries most affected by bufferbloat - >> voip/videoconferencing/gaming,web gain a good recognition of the problem, >>

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

> On 23 Nov, 2016, at 10:28, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > If we can find a product that solves the gaming community problem (they're > one of the people who have "ping" in their applications and who immediately > notices when it's bad), we could perhaps approach someone

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Tue, 22 Nov 2016, Dave Taht wrote: I would like to see the industries most affected by bufferbloat - voip/videoconferencing/gaming,web gain a good recognition of the problem, how to fix it, and who to talk to about it (router makers and ISPs) It would be great if the realtime

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Dave Taht wrote: > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Jan Ceuleers > wrote: > > On 22/11/16 16:32, Dave Taht wrote: > >> What's left to do? > > > > Furthering adoption of the code that contains the bloat-related > >

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:19 AM, Jan Ceuleers wrote: > On 22/11/16 16:32, Dave Taht wrote: >> What's left to do? > > Furthering adoption of the code that contains the bloat-related > improvements. > > In my view, the single biggest potential contributor towards driving >

Re: [Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

On 22/11/16 16:32, Dave Taht wrote: > What's left to do? Furthering adoption of the code that contains the bloat-related improvements. In my view, the single biggest potential contributor towards driving such adoption would be for Ookla to start measuring and reporting bufferbloat, thereby

[Bloat] fixing bufferbloat in 2017

What's left to do? What else can we do? What should we stop doing? What can we do better? -- Dave Täht Let's go make home routers and wifi faster! With better software! http://blog.cerowrt.org ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net