: Wayne S
Subject: Re: Retro networking / WAN communities
There is some mention of Token Ring vs Ethernet here. IIRC, One issue that was
pointed out was that IBM was the only single source for TR chips so the price
of token ring could be kept artificially high. Was there ever a second or third
source
On 4/12/22 3:03 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I'll bow to the experts and refer to the things as a "boxes with in the blank>n capabilities".
I'm definitely not an expert. Just some random term> on the Internet who has things to say. ;-)
That should pretty much cover the terrain.
As
On 4/12/22 12:24, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Details matter.
I'll bow to the experts and refer to the things as a "boxes with n capabilities".
That should pretty much cover the terrain.
--Chuck
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 3:45 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk
> wrote:
>
>
> On 2022-04-12 09:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone still remember the other 100 Mb Ethernet-like proposal, I
>> think from HP, which added various types of complexity instead of simply
>> being a
On 4/11/22 19:27, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
On Apr 11, 2022, at 1:02 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
wrote:
Hi,
Does anyone know of any communities / mailing lists / newsgroups / et al. for
retro networking / WAN technologies?
I find myself interested in (at least) the following and
On 2022-04-12 09:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
> Does anyone still remember the other 100 Mb Ethernet-like proposal, I
> think from HP, which added various types of complexity instead of simply
> being a faster Ethernet?
HP's proposal was called 100BaseVG, aka 100VG-AnyLAN, and could
On 4/12/22 12:08 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Hub is a nebulous term.
Yes and no.
Hub can be a generic "connects things" a la. hub of wires. Or it can be
a technical thing, e.g. layer 1 device.
For example, I've got a couple of NS "Datamover" 10Base boxes that
take the WAN
On 4/12/22 11:44 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
To me a hub is a layer 1 device (physical layer) that doesn't look at
the traffic at all while the bridge does look at the traffic and
generally implements 802.1d Spanning Tree Protocol and processes BPDUs.
I think that you touch on a very
On 4/12/22 1:05 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
But that's a marketing document.
Eh ... Maybe.
Cisco has plenty of purely technical documentation on the same subject
with effectively similar technical information. That was just the first
link that I found that wasn't a "hub" in the
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/22 11:41 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> ...
>> Spanning tree is indeed another algorithm / protocol, but it's a control
>> plane algorithm with relatively easy time constraints, so it's just SMOP.
>
> I guess
On 4/12/22 11:41 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I don't know anything about the 3 Mb/s prototype other than that
it existed. When I speak of Ethernet and its "day 1" I mean 10 Mb/s
Ethernet as defined by the DEC/Intel/Xerox spec.
Okay. Fair enough.
I surmise that we're talking about
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:51 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/22 11:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> In my experience, "hub" is a vague marketing term. ...
>> Non-learning layer 2 packet switching devices to me are hypothetical beast,
>> I never met one and I'm glad I didn't.
>
>
> On 04/12/2022 12:42 PM Wayne S via cctech wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the info about IMP.
> But now i’d have to question IMP routers being around in 1970 since the
> internet wasn’t around yet.
>
>
The first response of "Interface" Message Processor is more correct. There was
a LOT of
On 4/12/22 11:44 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
In my experience, "hub" is a vague marketing term. ...
Non-learning layer 2 packet switching devices to me are hypothetical
beast, I never met one and I'm glad I didn't.
Nope. Hubs are definitely not a marketing term, nor a hypothetical beast.
See
On Mon, 11 Apr 2022, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> > I think "hub" is another word for "repeater" (just like "switch" is another
> > word for "bridge").
>
> Interesting.
>
> Do you know of any documentation, preferably not marketing materials, that
> used "repeater" in lieu of "hub"?
As I
On 4/12/22 10:44, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
> To me a hub is a layer 1 device (physical layer) that doesn't look at
> the traffic at all while the bridge does look at the traffic and
> generally implements 802.1d Spanning Tree Protocol and processes BPDUs.
Hub is a nebulous term. For
Yes, that's the way the term was used by DEC.
There have long been many things in our business that were called by multiple
names. Gateway is one (router, protocol translator). Dataset (modem or file),
file (file as we know it, disk drive) are other examples.
paul
> On Apr 12,
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 1:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/22 10:11 AM, Wayne S wrote:
>> Wiki says ethernet became commercially available in 1980 and invented in
>> 1973. So if enet was 1980 what were routers routing 10 years earlier in 1970?
>
> I feel like IMPs were
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 1:44 PM, Todd Goodman via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/2022 1:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> On 4/12/22 7:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
>>> The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
>>>
>>> * Switches learn what port given MACs are
On 4/12/2022 1:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
On 4/12/22 7:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
* Switches learn what port given MACs are on and only sends unicast
traffic destined for that MAC address on that port and
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 1:25 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/22 8:50 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> A device that doesn't do address learning and floods unicast frames is not a
>> bridge but rather a non-standard piece hardware.
>
> I feel like a "hub" qualifies as "a
/videos
-Original Message-
From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 1:29 PM
To: cctalk
Subject: Re: Retro networking / WAN communities
On 4/12/22 7:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
> The big difference in my mind between bridge and swi
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/22 7:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> ...
>> The concept of a repeater goes back to day 1 of Ethernet; you'll find them
>> in the D/I/X Ethernet spec. And they were part of the first batch of
>> Ethernet
: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Retro networking / WAN communities
What’s an IMP? Don’t know that acronym.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 10:20, Grant Taylor
> wrote:
>
> On 4/12/22 10:11 AM, Wayne S wrote:
>> Wiki says ethernet became commercially
On 4/12/22 11:23 AM, Wayne S wrote:
What’s an IMP? Don’t know that acronym.
Interface Message Processor.
#ARPANET
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
On 4/12/22 7:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
* Switches learn what port given MACs are on and only sends unicast
traffic destined for that MAC address on that port and not all
* Bridges send unicast traffic to all ports
On 4/12/22 8:50 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
A device that doesn't do address learning and floods unicast frames
is not a bridge but rather a non-standard piece hardware.
I feel like a "hub" qualifies as "a device that doesn't do address
learning and floods unicast frames".
To me, the
> I'm running into issues with switches not supporting 10 / 100 Mbps management
> interfaces for other equipment.
Half duplex was apparently deprecated a few years back, and recent switches
from Cisco (and probably other vendors) no longer support half duplex. We ran
into this at work for long
On 4/12/22 10:11 AM, Wayne S wrote:
Wiki says ethernet became commercially available in 1980 and invented
in 1973. So if enet was 1980 what were routers routing 10 years
earlier in 1970?
I feel like IMPs were "routing" and could be considered "routers" long
before Ethernet was a thing.
On 4/12/22 7:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
DEC documentation.
Thank you.
The concept of a repeater goes back to day 1 of Ethernet; you'll find
them in the D/I/X Ethernet spec. And they were part of the first
batch of Ethernet products from DEC.
Repeaters existing from day 1 of
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Todd Goodman wrote:
>
>
> On 4/12/2022 10:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>
>> Learning has always been part of what bridges do. It's a core part of the
>> DEC bridge spec, and a core part of the DECbridge-100 functionality. It is
>> the reason why
Grant Taylor wrote:
> My understanding is that 4.3BSD that ran on VAXes had support for NCP.
4.3BSD released in 1986 was long after ARPANET switched from NCP to
TCP/IP. Apparently early TCP/IP support was added to 4.1a in 1981.
I'm going out on a limb to claim BSD never had NCP support.
On 4/12/2022 10:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Apr 12, 2022, at 10:44 AM, Todd Goodman wrote:
On 4/12/2022 10:12 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Apr 12, 2022, at 9:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk
wrote:
...
The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
* Switches learn what port
On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 5:55 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk
wrote:
>
> On 4/11/22 9:55 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> > I am not sure what the actual distinction is, but a 'managed bridge'
> > turned up at the local antique market (!) some weeks back. It has a
> > pair of AUI ports and from the
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 10:44 AM, Todd Goodman wrote:
>
>
> On 4/12/2022 10:12 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 9:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk
>>> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
>>>
>>> * Switches learn what port given MACs
On 4/12/2022 10:12 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Apr 12, 2022, at 9:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk
wrote:
...
The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
* Switches learn what port given MACs are on and only sends unicast
traffic destined for that MAC address on that port
On 4/12/22 12:21 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote:
Are you saying there's a BSD Unix with Arpanet NCP? If so, where?
My understanding is that 4.3BSD that ran on VAXes had support for NCP.
My naive assumption is that there is enough of it still around that it
may be possible to bring up
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 12:52 AM, Grant Taylor
> wrote:
>
> ...
> I vaguely remember that there were three main forms of switching: store and
> forward, cut-through, and a hybrid of the two. My understanding is that S
> had the ability to sanity check (checksum?) frames and only re-send
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 9:56 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk
> wrote:
> ...
> The big difference in my mind between bridge and switch is:
>
> * Switches learn what port given MACs are on and only sends unicast
> traffic destined for that MAC address on that port and not all
> * Bridges send
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Grant Taylor via cctalk
> Subject: Re: Retro networking / WAN communities
> Date: April 12, 2022 at 2:08:22 AM EDT
> To: Wayne S , "General Discussion: On-Topic and
> Off-Topic Posts"
> Reply-To: Grant Taylor , "
On 4/12/2022 9:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
On Apr 12, 2022, at 12:42 AM, Grant Taylor
wrote:
On 4/11/22 6:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
[..SNIP..]
I think there is a large, > 80%, overlap between switch and bridge, but they
aren't perfect. Bridging some traffic between otherwise
> On Apr 12, 2022, at 12:42 AM, Grant Taylor
> wrote:
>
> On 4/11/22 6:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> I think "hub" is another word for "repeater" (just like "switch" is another
>> word for "bridge").
>
> Interesting.
>
> Do you know of any documentation, preferably not marketing materials,
Grant Taylor wrote:
> I think of Tymnet as a service and not as much as a protocol. Though
> maybe it implies a protocol and I'm unaware of it.
Tymshare was a service, but the computers talked to each over over a
vast network. The network was spun off as a separate business. There
is code
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> If we're going to do Tymnet, we should definitely do Telenet.
Telenet is BBN's commercial network based on their IMP technology,
right? How would you go about making a Telenet network?
Warner Losh wrote:
> NCP was the forerunner of TCP/IP. Net Unix had it as its supported
> protocol and that was old enough that BSD had at least one
> implementation.
Are you saying there's a BSD Unix with Arpanet NCP? If so, where?
On 4/11/22 11:38 PM, Wayne S wrote:
In the beginning there was thick ethernet limited to 100 m.
Um
I *REALLY* thought the 5 & 2 in 10Base5 and 10Base2 was the number of
hundreds of meters that the cable segment could exist on it's own.
My understanding is that the 100 meter limit came
On 4/11/22 9:55 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I am not sure what the actual distinction is, but a 'managed bridge'
turned up at the local antique market (!) some weeks back. It has a
pair of AUI ports and from the amount of logic/processor power inside
it does a lot more than just pass
On 4/11/22 6:33 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
DECbridge-90: AUI or 10Base2 to 10Base2.
Interesting.
That's not accurate.
"Switch" is a marketing term invented by certain companies that
wanted to pretend their products were different from (and better than)
other people's bridges.
It never was
On 4/11/22 6:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
I think "hub" is another word for "repeater" (just like "switch" is
another word for "bridge").
Interesting.
Do you know of any documentation, preferably not marketing materials,
that used "repeater" in lieu of "hub"?
From my naive point of view, hubs
On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:18 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
wrote:
>
> > I don't have a 10Base2 switch,
> Were there ever actual true 10b2 switches? I've only ever seen them as hubs,
> and I haven't seen a 10bT switch that had a 10b2 port (all the 10bT devices I
> have with 10b2 ports are hubs).
>
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 8:16 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
> wrote:
>
I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not in use
I have a few 10Base2 bits).
>>> Please expand "my Pro". There's not much to go on.
>>> #LivingRetroVicariouslyThoughOthers
>> DEC
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 6:35 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/11/22 4:18 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
>> Were there ever actual true 10b2 switches?
DECbridge-90: AUI or 10Base2 to 10Base2.
> ...
> IMHO an unmanaged switch is an evolution of a bridge. Or in the past, I
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 6:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/11/22 2:58 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> I don't have a 10Base2 switch, but I have an old repeater with 4-5 10BaseT
>> ports and a 10Base2 port. And I have a 10Base2 transceiver (as well as 2 or
>> 3 10BaseT
>>> I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not in use I
>>> have a few 10Base2 bits).
>> Please expand "my Pro". There's not much to go on.
>> #LivingRetroVicariouslyThoughOthers
> DEC Professional 380 (and a caseless 350) -- PDP-11s with a screwball bus and
> their own
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 5:57 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 4/11/22 11:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not in use I
>> have a few 10Base2 bits).
>
> Please expand "my Pro". There's not much to go on.
>
On Apr 11, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk
wrote:
>
> You’re one of the people I’d expect to be running 10Base-2 at home. I only
> have one 10Mbit switch still online, it’s for my DECserver 90TL, the only
> 10Base-2 device that I keep online (I have a couple others).
A correction
On 4/11/22 11:12 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
There is a Central Office Groups.io list (which migrated from Yahoo
Groups) located at https://groups.io/g/centraloffice . It is low traffic.
I've sent a subscribe request.
There is a Discord server related to PBX and Telephone stuff, but
On 4/11/22 4:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
I'll also throw in SLIP, since I imagine most remote access nowadays
is all PPP,
If you're adding SLIP, I'm going to add PLIP.
and maybe even old school EtherTalk or LocalTalk.
Oh wow. Ya. That's more easily done / emulated on many
On 4/11/22 4:47 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
NCP was the forerunner of TCP/IP. Net Unix had it as its supported
protocol and that was old enough that BSD had at least one
implementation.
Thank you for confirmation of what I thought might be the case Warner.
I've thought about messing
On Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 4:39 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk
wrote:
> On 4/11/22 1:59 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote:
> > For your consideration:
> >
> > - Arpanet (NCP)
>
> Is that "NCP" the same NCP that's in ancient BSDs? Or is it a term
> collision?
>
NCP was the forerunner of TCP/IP. Net
>> I find myself interested in (at least) the following and would like to
>> find others with similar (dis)interests to chat about things.
>>
>> - 10Base5 / 10Base2 / 10BaseT
>> - ISDN
>> - DSL / ADSL / SDSL / HDSL
>> - T1 / E1
>> - ATM
>> - Frame Relay
>> - ARCnet
>> - PSTN / PBX / PABX
>
On 4/11/22 1:59 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote:
For your consideration:
- Arpanet (NCP)
Is that "NCP" the same NCP that's in ancient BSDs? Or is it a term
collision?
- Tymnet
I think of Tymnet as a service and not as much as a protocol. Though
maybe it implies a protocol and I'm
On 4/11/22 4:18 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
Were there ever actual true 10b2 switches?
I've seen 10Base-T versions of -- what I would call -- bridges in box
for sale.
I've seen /many/ different software products that could be installed on
computers with supported interfaces to be
> I don't have a 10Base2 switch,
Were there ever actual true 10b2 switches? I've only ever seen them as hubs,
and I haven't seen a 10bT switch that had a 10b2 port (all the 10bT devices I
have with 10b2 ports are hubs).
I just have one 10b2 system now, the VAXstation 3100 M76 (previously the HP
On 4/11/22 2:58 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I don't have a 10Base2 switch, but I have an old repeater with 4-5
10BaseT ports and a 10Base2 port. And I have a 10Base2 transceiver
(as well as 2 or 3 10BaseT transceiver). Good thing because the Pro
has an AUI connector.
I have to ask
On 4/11/22 11:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not
in use I have a few 10Base2 bits).
Please expand "my Pro". There's not much to go on.
#LivingRetroVicariouslyThoughOthers
And I did ATM for a living for about 5 years, back
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 3:36 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Apr 11, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
>> wrote:
>>
>> I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not in use I
>> have a few 10Base2 bits). And I did ATM for a living for about 5 years,
>> back
Grant Taylor wrote:
> I find myself interested in (at least) the following and would like to
> find others with similar (dis)interests to chat about things.
>
> - 10Base5 / 10Base2 / 10BaseT
> - ISDN
> - DSL / ADSL / SDSL / HDSL
> - T1 / E1
> - ATM
> - Frame Relay
> - ARCnet
> - PSTN / PBX
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> I still have 10 Mb Ethernet at home (on my Pro, and while it's not in use I
> have a few 10Base2 bits). And I did ATM for a living for about 5 years, back
> around 1995, so I can still talk a bit of that.
>
> Hey, you
On 11/04/2022 18:02, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> Does anyone know of any communities / mailing lists / newsgroups / et
> al. for retro networking / WAN technologies?
>
> I find myself interested in (at least) the following and would like to
> find others with similar (dis)interests to chat
> On Apr 11, 2022, at 1:02 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of any communities / mailing lists / newsgroups / et al. for
> retro networking / WAN technologies?
>
> I find myself interested in (at least) the following and would like to find
> others with
Does anyone know of any communities / mailing lists / newsgroups / et al. for
retro networking / WAN technologies?
- PSTN / PBX / PABX
There is a Central Office Groups.io list (which migrated from Yahoo
Groups) located at https://groups.io/g/centraloffice . It is low traffic.
There is a
Hi,
Does anyone know of any communities / mailing lists / newsgroups / et
al. for retro networking / WAN technologies?
I find myself interested in (at least) the following and would like to
find others with similar (dis)interests to chat about things.
- 10Base5 / 10Base2 / 10BaseT
- ISDN
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