I did not mean to stir-up a discussion on Mach, I was using one
aspect of Mach, XML, as something I think is wrong. But not Mach itself.
This is my opinion. The reason is that XML is primarily an exchange
language. Because it is based on an abstract syntax notation, DTD, it
is very easy to
Singletons have lots of advantages. Performance is a main one. Here's the
basic idea:
cfif NOT StructKeyExists(application, MessageService)
cfset application.MessageService =
createObject('component','MessageService').init() /
/cfif
Here's the right way to do it, to make perfectly sure 2
On 10/27/05, Hal Helms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have never said how bad a design Mach was because I disagree with the
use of XML as poor excuse for something that should have been in a
database.
Doh! Why didn't we think of that -- putting the config info in a DB? Matt, I
hold you
You caught us out, Joseph. Certain persons from a certain company paid
us a certain amount of money to show off CF's ability to handle XML. At
first, we fought it...
Hal: You want us to put the config stuff in a text file that can be read by
humans AND computers? Are you nuts? We'd rather put
On 10/28/05, Joseph Flanigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is my opinion. The reason is that XML is primarily an exchange
language.
You do know how horrendously commong XML configuration files are in
just about everything these days (not just web application
frameworks), right? Are you saying
It's no use, Matt: the cat's out of the bag. Give the man his Simoleans...
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Matt Woodward
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 7:01 AM
To: CFCDev@cfczone.org
Subject: Re: [CFCDev] CFSQLTool debate
On 10/28/05,
Aw man, do I have to built it in too?
;)
-Joe
On 10/27/05, Hal Helms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have never said how bad a design Mach was because I disagree with the
use of XML as poor excuse for something that should have been in a
database.
Doh! Why didn't we think of that -- putting
The reason is that XML is primarily an exchange
language. Because it is based on an abstract syntax notation, DTD, it
is very easy to overload and mis-use as a data store such as in Mach.
Yes, it stared as an exchange language, but the ability to build
structured, checked documents lends
Yes, it stared as an exchange language, but the ability to build
started as an
--
Get Glued!
The Model-Glue ColdFusion Framework
http://www.model-glue.com
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You are subscribed to cfcdev. To unsubscribe, send an email to
I did not even notice that little mistake before you pointed it out your self :)
On 10/28/05, Joe Rinehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, it stared as an exchange language, but the ability to build
started as an
--
Get Glued!
The Model-Glue ColdFusion Framework
http://www.model-glue.com
I would actually have to agree with Flanigan - a managed system would be the
better way to go.
But I don't even think a database solution is structured enough to handle a
task as serious as storing config data - you'll need real people with real
skills for this job.
I suggest opening a small
On 10/28/05, Hal Helms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's no use, Matt: the cat's out of the bag. Give the man his Simoleans...
Having to sell my mansion that XML built sure is going to be a let
down to the Mrs.
--
Matt Woodward
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mattwoodward.com
Since we're all beating down the most tool-as$ed statement I've read
in a long time, I might have to add. How do you think JRun, you know
the server that's running coldfusion is configured? Before you jump
on that and tell me that you run enterprise as a j2ee application, go
ask your sys
On 10/28/05, Joe Rinehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The reason is that XML is primarily an exchange
language. Because it is based on an abstract syntax notation, DTD, it
is very easy to overload and mis-use as a data store such as in Mach.
Yes, it stared as an exchange language, but the
Again... when we use related flat file databases, you are right. XML is
difficult. But if we used something like Cache which is a native object
oriented data store then your objection is immediately obsolete. What is
needed is for databases to evolve. The issue is why haven't data storage
On 10/28/05, John Farrar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Again... when we use related flat file databases, you are right. XML is
difficult. But if we used something like Cache which is a native object
oriented data store then your objection is immediately obsolete.
Not really--what advantage does
I think John had to be joking Matt. Of course I thought that about
Joe with his initial post in this thread and I was proven to be
completely wrong - so who knows?
I still can't believe Joe was serious. Hopefully some of the more
serious responses that explain the benefits of a config file
XML is a perfect tool for storing data when you do not have a database
available. My application, cfcPowerTools, uses XML for config data
because cfcPowerTools does not require a database to be operational.
Eventually, cfcPowerTools will be able to work against more databases
then just SQL
On 10/28/05, Joseph Flanigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I did not mean to stir-up a discussion on Mach, I was using one
aspect of Mach, XML, as something I think is wrong.
I must jump to Joseph's defense here. I think ColdFusion framework
developers became infatuated with XML a few years ago --
On 10/28/05, Patrick McElhaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I must jump to Joseph's defense here. I think ColdFusion framework
developers became infatuated with XML a few years ago -- starting with
XML fusedocs -- and it's gotten out of hand.
Sure, let's ignore all the benefits that going the XML
On 10/28/05, Patrick McElhaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/28/05, Joseph Flanigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I did not mean to stir-up a discussion on Mach, I was using one
aspect of Mach, XML, as something I think is wrong.
I must jump to Joseph's defense here. I think ColdFusion
1) Stop calling it data hiding. Call it encapsulation. Then go find
articles that tell us why encapsulation is bad. Otherwise, you expect us
to just take your word for it?
2) If you can understand that $ is not a good way to start a variable
name then I really think all hope is lost. You know
Patrick,
I actually half-agree (which is ironic since I'm one of those pushing
an xml-heavy CF framework). I tend to put application config DATA into
.properties files, because they are the most human readable and
portable.
However, I don't know any framework that puts business logic into
XML.
I must jump to Joseph's defense here. I think ColdFusion framework
developers became infatuated with XML a few years ago -- starting with
XML fusedocs -- and it's gotten out of hand.
It's called progress, not infatuation.
If Joseph is an intelligent contributer who questions long-held
beliefs
Patrick, I'll back you up on this. I don't necessarily see a problem
with having configuration information in an xml file, but better
alternatives could exist. I do think it's a little odd to have the
program flow stored in XML though.
I think you're right about CF programmers falling in love
What is needed is a multi-featured data store.
1. Traditional Relational with standard SQL
2. Object Oriented Data Storage
Yes... I was teasing about the original comment that the configuration file
should be placed in a database. There was a time when loading a file once
for an application of
The one problem I have with deploying configuration information in CF
is that the administrator I'm delivering it to then has to edit CF.
Sure, CF is easy - plain text is easier.
I'm not saying XML is the end all be all of configuration files. I
like .ini files with name value pairs, or
Thanks everyone for formalizing a definition for me of what I've been
doing for years. It's actually not as formal as I was thinking.
Now I don't really have a problem with singletons, especially for
application settings. That's what I've been doing for a long time now.
The problem I have, is
On 10/28/05, Matt Woodward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't understand what was wrong with simpler text-based formats,
such as the java properties file and windows ini file. I thought that
a config file should only specify details; it should not implement
business logic. And I thought
There are times when you need more than just the static variable(s) and may need to do something else in a singleton. A singleton can break encapsulation pretty easy (the whole 1 class/object for 1 action) by providing other support/funcitonality. I use static vars all of the time in Flash but in
Patrick McElhaney wrote:
On 10/28/05, Matt Woodward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't understand what was wrong with simpler text-based formats,
such as the java properties file and windows ini file. I thought that
a config file should only specify details; it should not
Hi. I trying create a function in this format:
IsBlockedTime(startdayofweek,starthour, startminute, enddayofweek,
endhour,endminute)
This will compare the current date and time to the parameters passed through the function, and return a boolean.
Basically, I am trying to stop my users from
Ken wrote:
Hi. I trying create a function in this format:
IsBlockedTime(startdayofweek,starthour, startminute, enddayofweek,
endhour,endminute)
This will compare the current date and time to the parameters passed
through the function, and return a boolean.
Basically, I am trying to stop my
2) If you can understand that $ is not a good way to start
a variable name then I really think all hope is lost. You
know what you should use to distinguish between a variable
name and a method name? The NAME.
Method names have verbs in them... getSomething, doSomething,
On 10/28/05, Harry Klein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From the Ruby introduction:
http://www.rubycentral.com/book/intro.html
Variables Global InstanceClass Constants
Local and Class Names
name$debug @name
You misunderstood my mail completely, I am on Davids side here and would
never use $ in variable names.
... Using a $ to denote something says that you are unable to properly
name your methods (or variables)... was just funny, it implies that
Ruby developers are not able to properly name
... Using a $ to denote something says that you are unable to properly
name your methods (or variables)... was just funny, it implies that
Ruby developers are not able to properly name variables.
Or maybe Ruby language's designers don't trust Ruby developers for being
able to properly name
On 10/28/05, Harry Klein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You misunderstood my mail completely, I am on Davids side here and would
never use $ in variable names.
... Using a $ to denote something says that you are unable to properly
name your methods (or variables)... was just funny, it implies that
OK, gotta jump in for a second, cuz I'm getting sick of this. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH STARTING VARIABLE NAMES WITH $. OK? That of course is if you are writing Perl, PHP, Ruby, Mod_Perl, Ant, Csh, Sh, etc. Lots of languages use this standard. But what language is it we are talking about? Cold
|From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick McElhaney
|I think there must be an easier way to do what Mach-II does with a
|config file. For example, why doesn't Mach-II just expose an API so
|that I can control the application with a .cfm file?
Mach-II exposes an
Chris,
How do you really feel about the subject.
Dont hold back. Could you make your point so we could see what you are
trying to say? He, He, He. I think you should moderate a thread on the subject.
(I never understand why people dont just stop reading threads if they
think it is of no
On 10/28/05, Hugo Ahlenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mach-II exposes an API so that you can specify the programme flow in an
XML file.
I'm looking for something one level below the XML file. I want to be
able to write code against an API (in CFML).
I think that type of API would be easier to
Because each Fusebox public request is compiled into a single file
and the event queue is not evaluated dynamically at runtime, there
needs to be a way to tell the compiler to conditionally execute
do elements (ie Fusebox events). Without the if the
usefulness of Fusebox 4 would be greatly
I stated that I did not like using XML for events in Mach and that I
not that I do like XML. I think in this use particular of XML Mach fails.
The point I was trying to make was that to the people condemning
CFSQLTool, which has many wizards, for not agreeing with the output
of one wizard and
Like I said, what I'm looking for may already be there. Tell me, can I
build a Mach-II/MG/FB4 file without using XML at all?
Yes, you can build an instance of Model-Glue without using XML - you'd
create an instance of ModelGlue.cfc and add your controllers and
events programattically. For
Awesome. I can't wait to dig into Model-Glue.
Patrick
On 10/28/05, Joe Rinehart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, you can build an instance of Model-Glue without using XML - you'd
create an instance of ModelGlue.cfc and add your controllers and
events programattically. For that matter, you
All,
After much research, I have learned that the most
important thing to know about a framework is when and how to use them and when
not to.
Because Im so new to the Framework movement, and I cant
afford to waste any time with trial and error, I hoped you all might have some insight
Not using a framework maybe what this
application requires. From my framework session at MAX last week, that was one
of the main points. One of the biggest goals of a framework is to save
developing and maintenance time, usually the most expensive time of an
application. But this comes
You caught us out, Joseph. Certain persons from a certain company paid
us a certain amount of money to show off CF's ability to handle XML. At
first, we fought it...
That was a pretty big take. Was the party fun?
At 04:58 AM 10/28/2005, you wrote:
You caught us out, Joseph. Certain persons
Make sure you're not stripping the framework without proving that's
the problem. Very likely it's not, and stripping the framework out
will save a handful of ms per request and increase the cost of future
enhancements and maintenance. Far more likely, you can implement some
memory caching or DB
The way I've always thought about it is that the XML is the exchange
format between the developer and the application. Gotta pass the data
somehow, and XML happens to be a format that both can interface with
natively with a minimum of fuss. I don't know about anyone else, but
I've yet to learn
One thing i have to say completely in Joseph's favor ... He put a lot of
work and thought and care into his CFSQLTool and released it for everyone to
use as open source. Not many of us have done something similar. Thanks
Joseph. That was quite kind of you.
He's got his way of doing things. We all
Try these tools:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/itsolutions/intranet/downloads/webstres.mspx
http://www.opensta.org/
And check out these sites...
http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/read/44476.htm
http://www.softwareqatest.com/qatweb1.html#LOAD(Mentioned in the sys-con article)
On
Patrick,
I'm completely with you about being extremely dubious about having logic in
a config file. I've fought this more than anyone. But there are a few, rare,
unusual, scant, [insert adjective here] times when it's needed -- or at
least is very convenient. We added it most reluctantly and
That was a good half-move, Joe. Now, we both have to move to a database. I'm
thinking an OO database? I used to use Gemstone, a Smalltalk OO database.
Maybe we could use that? So, to run M2, MG, FB, we would just first require
that people install Gemstone and Smalltalk on their system -- a small
Assuming you're referring to the comment about if/ in FB, there's
really no way around it with the current architecture. The only place
you can have DO tags is in the XML, and you need to be able to call DO
tags conditionally, or they're utility is GREATLY reduced. The
DO-in-XML problem (as I've
I'm far from an expert on CF frameworks but I think I have to at least
partially agree with Matt's point here. I did write a primitive
scripting language back in my video game days and looking back now,
the script file I built then was nothing more than a data file -
name/value pairs and not a
Hal,
On the other hand... we could just hire a developer to manage the file for
us in M2, MG or FB. When you add an application to a system does the core
config file automatically update? My guess is not. So rather than charging
the customer the cost of a OO DB, we charge them for paying us to do
All the XML file in Mach-II does is provide a configuration file. There's no
logic in the XML at all.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Nolan Erck
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 7:33 PM
To: CFCDev@cfczone.org
Subject: RE: [CFCDev] CFSQLTool
To my knowledge none of the three frameworks allow multiple apps from
the same config file(s). You can partition a single large app and use
certian pieces in different UIs, I suppose, but it's still all one big
app. Mach-II will let you run multiple applications in a single CF
application, but
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