Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
hehehe, it's good to see OM people having a sense of humour as well! :) Steve Mosher wrote: they don't already? please issue a ticket. we'll fix the bug. George Brooke wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:01:47 +1100 Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tig wrote: Ok I will bite :) Q: Why did OM cross the road? A: To get to another toolkit :) Q: How many OM devs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Well first we need to abandon the old lightbulb holder because at a later date we may not be able to plug a floodlight in, bring in a new lightbulb holder and adapt it to multiple floodlights, meanwhile the engineering team has realized that this will only run green floodlights and has started rewiring the whole house.. :) The burnt out lightbulb is due to be fixed at a later date :) Please not this is not a cue for a thread on lightbulb analogies :) Q: What is the difference between a professional photographer and OM user? A: The OM user has to flash more often :) Q: Why did the OM newbie log onto #openmoko? A: Because they had not read: a) the wiki and b) the topic As then they would know you slide your finder up on the keyboard to get the numbers to enter your sim pin. I will be here all week, try the salad :) Regards (apologies for posting via gmane moving e-mail around) Hehe, love the lightbulb one! Q: What's the difference between an iphone and a freerunner? A: One works but takes away your freedom, the other is free but needs your work Knock, Knock Who's There? A Neo User A Neo User Q: What did the Neo say to the insomniac? A: At least when you go to sleep you know you'll wake up! Ancient chinese proverb: Neo owner is man carrying wall charger And I've saved my favorite for last: Q: What's the difference between a brick and a freerunner? A: A brick isn't designed to make phone calls. ;) -Dale (All in good fun) Maybe these should appear on the splash screen of the Neos solar.george ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Warren Baird wrote: OM2008.9 and FSO walk into a bar. How are you? How are you? asks FSO. Buzzz says OM2008.9 LOL! (for once, usage of that horrible acronym is actually appropriate - I really did laugh out loud!) this is my new splash screen... :D moko_bar.gz Description: GNU Zip compressed data ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Maybe these should appear on the splash screen of the Neos solar.george Brilliant! 1. Save either attachment somewhere 2. Use NeoTool or 'dfu-util -a splash -R -D filename' to flash the new splash to your neo 3. power down then turn on your neo 4. Laugh. :D -Dale moko_brick.gz Description: GNU Zip compressed data knock_knock.gz Description: GNU Zip compressed data ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On 18 Nov 2008, at 13:22, Nicola Mfb wrote: ... Yes! When someone asks me if it's a good idea to give a try to gentoo (my preferred distro) I point them to: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gentoo :) From TFA: Old-school Linux users were desperate to find a new way to feel superior. Some migrated to versions of BSD, ... I recently considered Solaris, but only briefly. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On 18 Nov 2008, at 13:01, Dale Maggee wrote: ... Q: What's the difference between an iphone and a freerunner? A: One works but takes away your freedom, the other is free but needs your work 3 3 3 Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On 19 Nov 2008, at 08:46, Dale Maggee wrote: Q: What's the difference between a brick and a freerunner? A: A brick isn't designed to make phone calls. Maybe these should appear on the splash screen of the Neos Brilliant! 1. Save either attachment somewhere 2. Use NeoTool or 'dfu-util -a splash -R -D filename' to flash the new splash to your neo 3. power down then turn on your neo 4. Laugh. :D -Dale moko_brick.gz I find the idea of flashing an attachment called moko_brick somewhat ominous. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
they don't already? please issue a ticket. we'll fix the bug. George Brooke wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:01:47 +1100 Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tig wrote: Ok I will bite :) Q: Why did OM cross the road? A: To get to another toolkit :) Q: How many OM devs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Well first we need to abandon the old lightbulb holder because at a later date we may not be able to plug a floodlight in, bring in a new lightbulb holder and adapt it to multiple floodlights, meanwhile the engineering team has realized that this will only run green floodlights and has started rewiring the whole house.. :) The burnt out lightbulb is due to be fixed at a later date :) Please not this is not a cue for a thread on lightbulb analogies :) Q: What is the difference between a professional photographer and OM user? A: The OM user has to flash more often :) Q: Why did the OM newbie log onto #openmoko? A: Because they had not read: a) the wiki and b) the topic As then they would know you slide your finder up on the keyboard to get the numbers to enter your sim pin. I will be here all week, try the salad :) Regards (apologies for posting via gmane moving e-mail around) Hehe, love the lightbulb one! Q: What's the difference between an iphone and a freerunner? A: One works but takes away your freedom, the other is free but needs your work Knock, Knock Who's There? A Neo User A Neo User Q: What did the Neo say to the insomniac? A: At least when you go to sleep you know you'll wake up! Ancient chinese proverb: Neo owner is man carrying wall charger And I've saved my favorite for last: Q: What's the difference between a brick and a freerunner? A: A brick isn't designed to make phone calls. ;) -Dale (All in good fun) Maybe these should appear on the splash screen of the Neos solar.george ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
OM2008.9 and FSO walk into a bar. How are you? How are you? asks FSO. Buzzz says OM2008.9 On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:01 AM, Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Tig wrote: Ok I will bite :) Q: Why did OM cross the road? A: To get to another toolkit :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Tig wrote: Ok I will bite :) Q: Why did OM cross the road? A: To get to another toolkit :) Q: How many OM devs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Well first we need to abandon the old lightbulb holder because at a later date we may not be able to plug a floodlight in, bring in a new lightbulb holder and adapt it to multiple floodlights, meanwhile the engineering team has realized that this will only run green floodlights and has started rewiring the whole house.. :) The burnt out lightbulb is due to be fixed at a later date :) Please not this is not a cue for a thread on lightbulb analogies :) Q: What is the difference between a professional photographer and OM user? A: The OM user has to flash more often :) Q: Why did the OM newbie log onto #openmoko? A: Because they had not read: a) the wiki and b) the topic As then they would know you slide your finder up on the keyboard to get the numbers to enter your sim pin. I will be here all week, try the salad :) Regards (apologies for posting via gmane moving e-mail around) Hehe, love the lightbulb one! Q: What's the difference between an iphone and a freerunner? A: One works but takes away your freedom, the other is free but needs your work Knock, Knock Who's There? A Neo User A Neo User Q: What did the Neo say to the insomniac? A: At least when you go to sleep you know you'll wake up! Ancient chinese proverb: Neo owner is man carrying wall charger And I've saved my favorite for last: Q: What's the difference between a brick and a freerunner? A: A brick isn't designed to make phone calls. ;) -Dale (All in good fun) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
2008/11/14 Minh Ha Duong [EMAIL PROTECTED] I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Actually I have never read any jokes about the software stack. But it is a sign of good mental health when a community is able to make fun of itself. Besides, where else would one share jokes about Openmoko ? Open fire ! Yes! When someone asks me if it's a good idea to give a try to gentoo (my preferred distro) I point them to: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Gentoo :) May we start an openmoko page there :) Nicola ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:01:47 +1100 Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tig wrote: Ok I will bite :) Q: Why did OM cross the road? A: To get to another toolkit :) Q: How many OM devs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Well first we need to abandon the old lightbulb holder because at a later date we may not be able to plug a floodlight in, bring in a new lightbulb holder and adapt it to multiple floodlights, meanwhile the engineering team has realized that this will only run green floodlights and has started rewiring the whole house.. :) The burnt out lightbulb is due to be fixed at a later date :) Please not this is not a cue for a thread on lightbulb analogies :) Q: What is the difference between a professional photographer and OM user? A: The OM user has to flash more often :) Q: Why did the OM newbie log onto #openmoko? A: Because they had not read: a) the wiki and b) the topic As then they would know you slide your finder up on the keyboard to get the numbers to enter your sim pin. I will be here all week, try the salad :) Regards (apologies for posting via gmane moving e-mail around) Hehe, love the lightbulb one! Q: What's the difference between an iphone and a freerunner? A: One works but takes away your freedom, the other is free but needs your work Knock, Knock Who's There? A Neo User A Neo User Q: What did the Neo say to the insomniac? A: At least when you go to sleep you know you'll wake up! Ancient chinese proverb: Neo owner is man carrying wall charger And I've saved my favorite for last: Q: What's the difference between a brick and a freerunner? A: A brick isn't designed to make phone calls. ;) -Dale (All in good fun) Maybe these should appear on the splash screen of the Neos solar.george signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Minh Ha Duong [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Actually I have never read any jokes about the software stack. But it is a sign of good mental health when a community is able to make fun of itself. Besides, where else would one share jokes about Openmoko ? Open fire ! Ok I will bite :) Q: Why did OM cross the road? A: To get to another toolkit :) Q: How many OM devs does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Well first we need to abandon the old lightbulb holder because at a later date we may not be able to plug a floodlight in, bring in a new lightbulb holder and adapt it to multiple floodlights, meanwhile the engineering team has realized that this will only run green floodlights and has started rewiring the whole house.. :) The burnt out lightbulb is due to be fixed at a later date :) Please not this is not a cue for a thread on lightbulb analogies :) Q: What is the difference between a professional photographer and OM user? A: The OM user has to flash more often :) Q: Why did the OM newbie log onto #openmoko? A: Because they had not read: a) the wiki and b) the topic As then they would know you slide your finder up on the keyboard to get the numbers to enter your sim pin. I will be here all week, try the salad :) Regards (apologies for posting via gmane moving e-mail around) Tig ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Tim Schmidt wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim I'd certainly be interested in attempting to add OpenGL support to the glamo driver if documentation were to become available, but I'm hesitant to put myself forward for anything that would require Openmoko Inc. to go out of their way by jumping through administrative loop holes to give access to the NDA'd documentation, as I'm unlikely to actually succeed (I have some experience of driver development, and experience of OpenGL from a high level point of view, but no actual experience of graphics driver development). So I think a freely available clean room rewrite of the documentation would be very helpful, as there may well be others in a similar position, people willing to take a look at the problem, but not confident enough to cause OpenMoko Inc. extra hassle/work for what may result in nothing. Cheers, Mike. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
I just wanted to update. I am trying to locate all the information I can relating to the Glamo, including projects using the hardware acceleration features of it on this wiki page [1]. I would like to use that page as a starting point to help organize an effort to get something underway with regard to the Glamo chip. There is not much there at the moment since information is quite hard to come by, but if anyone has further details or updates please put them on the wiki page. Thanks, Jacob [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Smedia_Glamo_3362 On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 1:13 AM, Michael Sheldon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Schmidt wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim I'd certainly be interested in attempting to add OpenGL support to the glamo driver if documentation were to become available, but I'm hesitant to put myself forward for anything that would require Openmoko Inc. to go out of their way by jumping through administrative loop holes to give access to the NDA'd documentation, as I'm unlikely to actually succeed (I have some experience of driver development, and experience of OpenGL from a high level point of view, but no actual experience of graphics driver development). So I think a freely available clean room rewrite of the documentation would be very helpful, as there may well be others in a similar position, people willing to take a look at the problem, but not confident enough to cause OpenMoko Inc. extra hassle/work for what may result in nothing. Cheers, Mike. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Tim Schmidt wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim I'd certainly be interested in attempting to add OpenGL support to the glamo driver if documentation were to become available, but I'm hesitant to put myself forward for anything that would require Openmoko Inc. to go out of their way by jumping through administrative loop holes to give access to the NDA'd documentation, as I'm unlikely to actually succeed (I have some experience of driver development, and experience of OpenGL from a high level point of view, but no actual experience of graphics driver development). So I think a freely available clean room rewrite of the documentation would be very helpful, as there may well be others in a similar position, people willing to take a look at the problem, but not confident enough to cause OpenMoko Inc. extra hassle/work for what may result in nothing. Cheers, Mike. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Tim Schmidt wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim I'd certainly be interested in attempting to add OpenGL support to the glamo driver if documentation were to become available, but I'm hesitant to put myself forward for anything that would require Openmoko Inc. to go out of their way by jumping through administrative loop holes to give access to the NDA'd documentation, as I'm unlikely to actually succeed (I have some experience of driver development, and experience of OpenGL from a high level point of view, but no actual experience of graphics driver development). So I think a freely available clean room rewrite of the documentation would be very helpful, as there may well be others in a similar position, people willing to take a look at the problem, but not confident enough to cause OpenMoko Inc. extra hassle/work for what may result in nothing. Cheers, Mike. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Tim Schmidt wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim I'd certainly be interested in attempting to add OpenGL support to the glamo driver if documentation were to become available, but I'm hesitant to put myself forward for anything that would require Openmoko Inc. to go out of their way by jumping through administrative loop holes to give access to the NDA'd documentation, as I'm unlikely to actually succeed (I have some experience of driver development, and experience of OpenGL from a high level point of view, but no actual experience of graphics driver development). So I think a freely available clean room rewrite of the documentation would be very helpful, as there may well be others in a similar position, people willing to take a look at the problem, but not confident enough to cause OpenMoko Inc. extra hassle/work for what may result in nothing. Cheers, Mike. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Sat, 2008-11-15 at 07:20 +, Stroller wrote: Having said that, I thought one of your engineers was already working on Glamo or XGlamo or whatever is required to use the chip's hardware acceleration. It would be good for Openmoko to reaffirm its commitment to that, to offer goals for getting it working timeframes in which these will be achieved. Over the next few weeks I shall be working on Xglamo to bring it into the Xorg family of drivers. If people come up with interesting patches while I am working on this I can certainly give them a tryout. Graeme (XorA) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
2008/11/14 Tim Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. Up for this request Wolfgang :) Yeah, Wolfgang, hopefully you didn't miss Tim's post, sounds promising :) As do the other offers of help. Minh wrote: To say what ? Skilled OpenGL hw driver developers welcome to join Glamo 3D development efforts, with a link from the to join Glamo 3D development efforts part to http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/035768.html ? (Also, to others, please do not make this topic into another what are the remaining problems with GTA02, but keep with the topic title about OpenGL/Glamo... that said, to have again a bit more of positive feedback, I'm happy (enough) daily user of FreeRunner with the recent echo fix, re-register fix and suspend mostly working, in addition to the joys of completely free phone... waiting for more fixes, of course). -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Great to hear that! Over the next few weeks I shall be working on Xglamo to bring it into the Xorg family of drivers. If people come up with interesting patches while I am working on this I can certainly give them a tryout. Graeme (XorA) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 5:36 AM, Timo Jyrinki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, Wolfgang, hopefully you didn't miss Tim's post, sounds promising :) As do the other offers of help. I'd just really like to get documentation out into the wild. I understand that performance is unlikely to ever be better than what we have currently. However, if the Haiku or ReactOS folks ever want to port to the GTA02, I'm sure they'd appreciate documentation so they don't have to burrow through our code (as much). If at some time in the future, a rare bug is encountered and OpenMoko is focused on GTA07, documentation might provide a crucial hint to interested developers tracking down the bug. You get the idea... It's just nice to have. --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Friday 14 November 2008 15:46:34 Yorick Moko wrote: somebody (leinir) on irc suggested you could maybe hire http://www.tungstengraphics.com (leinir Tungsten Graphics being the people behind gallium3d of course) although I don't know how much openmoko is willing to spend on it Unless we want a closed source driver, I don't think that would work. Reading between the lines on the Tungsten Graphics website. it looks to me that they have one core graphics driver, that they keep porting to whatever chip they are asked to write a driver for, so in each case the core engine stays the same and only the hardware specific stuff gets changed. If this is the case, I doubt they would be willing to produce a GPL driver, as that would require them either to publish the source of their entire engine, or to write a new one. -- David Pottage. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 2:43 PM, David Pottage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unless we want a closed source driver, I don't think that would work. Reading between the lines on the Tungsten Graphics website. it looks to me that they have one core graphics driver, that they keep porting to whatever chip they are asked to write a driver for, so in each case the core engine stays the same and only the hardware specific stuff gets changed. If this is the case, I doubt they would be willing to produce a GPL driver, as that would require them either to publish the source of their entire engine, or to write a new one. They've done much of the open source graphics driver development for Intel. --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Michele Renda wrote, on 2008-11-14 23:59: PS. Some hints on future OpenGL chips can arrive inside the next GTAXX versions? :) Try http://www.opengraphics.org/ - once the FGPA version is fully debugged, an ASIC version could be produced. Arthur. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang On Nov 14, 2008, at 6:48 AM, Jacob Peterson wrote: Sorry to drag this old, over discussed topic up again. However, I am concerned that if action is not taken soon then all GTA02 owners will be left without any real chance to ever get anything in the way of OpenGL support. So I ask the question, what is Openmoko's position on writing an OpenGL driver for the Glamo chip or at least aiding developers with some form of documentation? I have read speculation that it may be possible to do something such as rewrite the documents to get around the NDA. Since it seems rather clear that SMedia has no intention to release the documents to anyone else under NDA, it is solely up to Openmoko to write the driver or at least aid any community members with the ability to write such a driver. Hopefully there is something that can be done, or better yet, something is currently being done on this. Regards, Jacob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 06:11:30PM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. I might have to skip GTA03 since I have just spent a huge 300 Euros for a GTA02 :) I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Rui -- Fnord. Today is Pungenday, the 26th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
I might have to skip GTA03 since I have just spent a huge 300 Euros for a GTA02 :) I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Well said. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. Agreed, and awesome. We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. *crosses fingers and hopes* Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Rui Nishit, I might have to skip GTA03 since I have just spent a huge 300 Euros for a GTA02 :) I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Wow, this is actually really complicated, let me tell you a bit how I see things. First of all thank you very much for buying a Freerunner! And posting so much good stuff to our mailing lists. The Freerunner is our breadwinner right now, Freerunner sales sustain Openmoko, and more importantly they grow the community around a 100% open mobile platform. You contribute in many ways. If you buy the Freerunner as a normal user for daily use (quite a few people use it as a daily phone), then your main contribution is that you buy the phone, give Openmoko some of your hard earned money to support further development. If you want to use it as a daily phone, but run into too many bugs or don't find a distribution that fits your needs, you contribute by writing up bug reports. Sending critical emails to our mailing lists or blogging about the shortcomings of the phone. Both our community and our internal people work tirelessly to address these bugs. Finally if you buy it as a mobile development platform right away, you won't mind the current bugs and shortcomings, but see them as an opportunity to grow Free Software into the mobile world. Also don't forget documentation. Documentation is super important to really make Free Software valuable. Every contribution to our wiki (wiki.openmoko.org) is a way to help Openmoko. The home page has been translated to 23 languages! We are really building a free mobile platform together. The source codes are 100% Free Software. The schematics are open under Creative Commons license (CC-BY-SA), so is the complete mechanical design. How does all this relate to GTA03? Well, on one hand internally we work around the clock as if we are trying to start mass production of GTA03 next month. Sean would certainly love to mass produce improved hardware _ANY TIME_ :-) Sean always pushes us to work faster and get things done. On the other hand it's such a huge task. A 100% free and open mobile platform. Thousands of details. And a very small internal engineering force. I have around 30 internal engineers. The typical mobile platform (Nokia/Symbian, WinMobile/HTC, Android/HTC, RIMM, Apple) has over 1000. Is Openmoko planning to hire the missing 970? No. We can only hire very carefully as the current sales of GTA02 allow us to do. Otherwise we would endanger the openness of the platform. The other 970 must come from our community, and increasingly they are. So by buying Freerunners, fixing or writing up bugs, helping to document more aspects of the phone, you help us all get to GTA03 faster. When will GTA03 come out? You tell me. You, and the rest of the community influence it more than you can imagine. We have decided to make changes to the hardware only incrementally, along product lines of our current chip vendors whenever possible, so that as much as possible of the software effort can carry over. We have decided to focus our internal software engineering on the low level, so that we leverage our insider knowledge about the hardware and schematics, while relying on the larger Free Software community to help with higher-level software. You say the current software is a 'joke', which is painful for me but I accept it. From where we all want to be it's a joke, yes. Agreed. So that also answers your question when GTA03 will come out. It's a long way, maybe another year. Let's continue to work, join if you haven't joined yet. Best Regards, Wolfgang On Nov 14, 2008, at 7:06 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 06:11:30PM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. I might have to skip GTA03 since I have just spent a huge 300 Euros for a GTA02 :) I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Rui -- Fnord. Today is Pungenday, the 26th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thank you for your answer. I bought GTA02 and I am really happy of this buy. I hope to buy the next major revision! I am not still using it as my daily phone (to say the true I hate phones), but I using my free time to develop it. About the lesson, I think it was very important to learn it. To accept closed HW pays a lot in short term, but the true values is something different! Please keep up this great work! Michele Renda PS. Some hints on future OpenGL chips can arrive inside the next GTAXX versions? :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkdfVUACgkQSIAU/I6SkT1SqgCbBDzzNcUjB86NhyW9tEvC6wEh yz8AnR1JiDaauT1yQ8i8J+GfFk03DXQk =ZDDn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Thank you for the response Wolfgang. The current FreeRunner is already starting to show its potential as a kick-ass phone and defiantly has me excited to see what future version can offer, but it is sad to see the user interface will never be able to support smooth animations or run any applications that require more that a couple simple moving objects without 3D acceleration support for the Glamo. What started me think of this is running Android on the FreeRunner. I noticed that it ran reasonably well, but if it had just a little extra help from the 3D accelerator it would run really well, the same goes for every other UI and application for the phone. I will continue to support Openmoko and I am eagerly awaiting future hardware that do offer proper 3D support, but until then I will try and get all I can out of what is available. -Jacob On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang On Nov 14, 2008, at 6:48 AM, Jacob Peterson wrote: Sorry to drag this old, over discussed topic up again. However, I am concerned that if action is not taken soon then all GTA02 owners will be left without any real chance to ever get anything in the way of OpenGL support. So I ask the question, what is Openmoko's position on writing an OpenGL driver for the Glamo chip or at least aiding developers with some form of documentation? I have read speculation that it may be possible to do something such as rewrite the documents to get around the NDA. Since it seems rather clear that SMedia has no intention to release the documents to anyone else under NDA, it is solely up to Openmoko to write the driver or at least aid any community members with the ability to write such a driver. Hopefully there is something that can be done, or better yet, something is currently being done on this. Regards, Jacob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Actually I have never read any jokes about the software stack. But it is a sign of good mental health when a community is able to make fun of itself. Besides, where else would one share jokes about Openmoko ? Open fire ! Here is a old one: With milestone IV, openmoko-fso-console-image , FSO is getting really close to a workable GNUPhone as described at: http://notnews.today.com/2008/09/22/free-software-foundation-announces-gnuphone/ Yours, Minh ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Minh Ha Duong [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Actually I have never read any jokes about the software stack. But it is a sign of good mental health when a community is able to make fun of itself. Besides, where else would one share jokes about Openmoko ? Open fire ! Here is a old one: With milestone IV, openmoko-fso-console-image , FSO is getting really close to a workable GNUPhone as described at: http://notnews.today.com/2008/09/22/free-software-foundation-announces-gnuphone/ Minh, Wolfgang, Please don't misunderstand those of us who seem to have nothing but negative opinions. We bought the phone because we loved the open source ideal. However, having committed good money and not having the ability to make infinite copies of it, those of us who bought it for pure philosophical and utilitarian purposes, rather than academic or career-oriented ones, have been definitely disappointed at the never-ending list of problems. I'd rather not enumerate them. I believe Rui is very correct in his comment on the commercial aspect of this effort and the results it has yielded so far. Here is a great idea with tremendous potential if you set the right goals and direct your energies to achieve them. The open source philosophy has a distinct disadvantage of people developing just for the joy of it without considering the harsh realities of economics and consumerism. You are competing against real products that, if you disregard the deliberate crippling and proprietary technologies, 'Work'. A commodity device should perform its basic functions faultlessly 'Out Of The Box'. I hate these cliches as much as you do, but they fit their purpose perfectly. I am, as other users must probably be, thankful to your team and the community for the effort you have put in, and the support and spirit you have shown. I am glad that the Freerunner is no vapourware. I am glad the Back To Basics program was conceived and started. However, I believe that the GTA02 is your only chance to make the GTA03 and future versions a resounding success. Please concentrate your efforts in curing its shortcomings. Make it reliable and usable at least for us semi-geeks. The path you have followed allows the boys to use it as their toy, but if that remains its only purpose, there will be definitely lesser repeat customers for the GTA03, whenever it comes out, and whatever it turns out to be. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Dear Wolfgang, On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:11:40PM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: You say the current software is a 'joke', which is painful for me but I accept it. From where we all want to be it's a joke, yes. Agreed. So that also answers your question when GTA03 will come out. It's a long way, maybe another year. If I wasn't such an adept to Free Software, I wouldn't have patience to tolerate the problems. Some of the reasons the software stack is a joke is not even the fault of OpenMoko. Eg, the qtopia^Wqtextended interface has had a lot more years of life and has so little :) I'm so very glad to hear the news that the sales have been good enough, it's really good to know that because it gives me reasonable expectation that this most respectful company (because it dares to provide the unique Free Software cell phone in suck a proprietary market) will be around long enough for the worst bugs to be solved. It was a terrible mistake to use hardware with NDA-only info, and that is hurting a lot of your users. Please keep your focus there :) Please consider that I'm really using it as a daily phone, and you can't do anything else than grow a strong stomach for these critiques because they are real problems: * White Screen of Death means the battery life is somewhere between 4 and 8 hours (depending on number of calls, in extreme cases maybe even less) * Accelerometers that freeze after a short time of reads mean that accelerometer based applications are not useful on the long run (they need to be frequently restarted) * Slow 2D, no 3D * ... I count myself lucky to not have a dead phone most of the time because I'm almost always plugged to the wall, and as such the laptop powers up the Neo. And I do spend an awful long time in front of the computer, the experience is much worse on weekends (where I have to carry the wall charger around with me). I don't care about a good zhone/tichy/paroli/whatever if I can't use it because the phone is out of juice :) By frustrating that reading critiques may be, consider how frustrating it is for me (and people who have the same problems) :) People with less patience are selling their OpenMokos (I hope people with better patience buy them). I'm even willing to tryout experimental images aimed at trying to solve the WSoD bug, as I've stopped importing my contacts (I grew tired of doing it three to four times a week) and other things that take some time. Best, Rui -- Hail Eris! Today is Pungenday, the 26th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 02:36:27PM +0100, Minh Ha Duong wrote: I hope the software stack becomes less of a joke in time for GTA03 or it'll be hard to get much new customers... Actually I have never read any jokes about the software stack. But it is a sign of good mental health when a community is able to make fun of itself. Besides, where else would one share jokes about Openmoko ? Open fire ! Actually, most users of OpenMokos I know get mocked for using a brick that sometimes is a phone or other funny remarks. Here is a old one: With milestone IV, openmoko-fso-console-image , FSO is getting really close to a workable GNUPhone as described at: http://notnews.today.com/2008/09/22/free-software-foundation-announces-gnuphone/ Yes, FSO M4 is probably one of the best images OpenMoko Inc put out so far :) Rui -- Or is it? Today is Pungenday, the 26th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang wow, this is the first I hear about this I don't think it is very well know in the community. Maybe somebody can put a notification on the main page of the wiki about it? y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
somebody (leinir) on irc suggested you could maybe hire http://www.tungstengraphics.com (leinir Tungsten Graphics being the people behind gallium3d of course) although I don't know how much openmoko is willing to spend on it y On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang On Nov 14, 2008, at 6:48 AM, Jacob Peterson wrote: Sorry to drag this old, over discussed topic up again. However, I am concerned that if action is not taken soon then all GTA02 owners will be left without any real chance to ever get anything in the way of OpenGL support. So I ask the question, what is Openmoko's position on writing an OpenGL driver for the Glamo chip or at least aiding developers with some form of documentation? I have read speculation that it may be possible to do something such as rewrite the documents to get around the NDA. Since it seems rather clear that SMedia has no intention to release the documents to anyone else under NDA, it is solely up to Openmoko to write the driver or at least aid any community members with the ability to write such a driver. Hopefully there is something that can be done, or better yet, something is currently being done on this. Regards, Jacob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Le vendredi 14 novembre 2008, Yorick Moko a écrit : On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang wow, this is the first I hear about this I don't think it is very well know in the community. Maybe somebody can put a notification on the main page of the wiki about it? To say what ? Minh -- Minh HA DUONG, Chargé de Recherche, CNRS CIRED, Centre International de Recherches sur l'Environnement et le Développement http://minh.haduong.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
I run Mesa on my FR without any problem, aside from the possible slowness of it, but then again, its pretty similar in performance to any 400 mhz box I have used in the past. I can only presume this complaint laments the lack of hardware acceleration for the OpenGL calls. How complex can that be to achieve? Yorick Moko wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang wow, this is the first I hear about this I don't think it is very well know in the community. Maybe somebody can put a notification on the main page of the wiki about it? y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Iain B. Findleton Tel: 514-457-0744 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
2008/11/14 Tim Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. Agreed, and awesome. We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. *crosses fingers and hopes* Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Up for this request Wolfgang :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
After really digging the archives I came across one thread [1] that has a lot of good information on the limits of the Glamo and what has been tried already to get more usefulness out of it. I think it would be good to have some of the information from that thread on the wiki. Any suggestions on a good page for it? It seems for now, trying to work around the scrolling and clipping graphics as Lally mentioned might be the best course of action. A limited driver supporting OpenGL ES 1.1 at 320x240 resolution would still be nice, but that won't solve any of issues with the user interface. -Jacob [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td19892|a19892 On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 12:09 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The biggest usability issue with the graphical performance on the Moko is scrolling/clipping graphics. If we had the ability to upload an image to the glamo, clip it, and then pan it in the clip rectangle, a lot of the perceived slowness wouldn't be a problem. As long as the controls were visually responsive, they can have old state. People can manage with controls that show old data, as long as they respond when you interact with them. A few custom GTK widgets that manage the glamo for this sort of thing (e.g. the large scroll window for applications, etc) would likely result in worlds of improvement. .. or, something fancier... but I think this'd be a great step forward. -ls On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Riccardo Centra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/11/14 Tim Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. Agreed, and awesome. We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. *crosses fingers and hopes* Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. I am not a skilled developer, but I would be more than happy to organize, and participate in a traditional clean room re-implementation of the documentation. As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? --tim ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Up for this request Wolfgang :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Jacob Peterson wrote: After really digging the archives I came across one thread [1] that has a lot of good information on the limits of the Glamo and what has been tried already to get more usefulness out of it. I think it would be good to have some of the information from that thread on the wiki. Any suggestions on a good page for it? [...] How about http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Glamo ? Kind regards, -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Tim Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a GTA02 owner, as a founding member of the Open Graphics Project, as a Director of the Open Hardware Foundation, I believe I have the resources to accomplish such a task. I'd love to try. Can we make it happen? I would love to contribute in some way here. I've been programming OpenGL for almost two years (programming generally for a LOT longer), and I'm slowly learning kernel programming. However, I appreciate that it's going to take a whole lot more than that to make this work... Tom -- Thomas White Department of Materials Science and Metallurgy Electron Microscopy Group (PhD Student) University of Cambridge / Downing College ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Wolfgang Spraul wrote: Openmoko actually has learnt a lot from this. First we have learnt to not trust high-level promises as much as before. In fact I would go as far as saying that going forward, we will not trust any promises about 'we will open this up later' anymore. Either it's open and documented at the time we make the decision to use those chips, or we look elsewhere. I believe that's what our customers want. I read in the development list archive a big discussion about whether customers/enduser/developers would accept non-free bits to things like the wifi. I didn't subscribe because the list is very developer orientated so I don't know what the end result was, however I hope, in light of this thread, someone can reveal it ended favourably. :) We have a long way to go to come out with kick-ass open phone hardware, but if our community doesn't loose faith and continues to do development together with us, we'll get there. The momentum we have built with the Freerunner is awesome. Please continue to buy Freerunners and to develop for it, same is happening internally. The next phones will build on top of the free platform we have built together, the technology investment will carry over. Keep doing what you are doing, there are problems, there will continue to be problems... lets not get demoralised but look forward to GTA 3 (do what you can but try not to let my hair turn grey first! ;) ) and if anything can be done about the glamo chip by engaging smedia, I would love openmoko to give it a try. :) If there is anything people who aren't skilled developers, who have no money(!), can do other than what we are already doing, please let us know. :) Finally, thanks for engaging with the community it's nice to get some feedback even if it isn't all good news[1]. Cheers Tim [1] I *would* be really interested to know Openmoko's original projected sales figures for GTA02 and current sales so far! I guess this probably isn't possible but nobody gets hurt asking! -- www.tdobson.net If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us still has one object. If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now has two ideas. - George Bernard Shaw ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
Wolfgang Spraul wrote: Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Reading this makes me so happy... If I don't remember wrong, some months ago some users asked how to help in this, but I don't know if they were contacted or not. Now I can't find the mails, but I remember I've read them here or in devel (or maybe kernel) list... I just hope that you could find someone that would like working in this; as written before, maybe we could ask for a collaboration to the DRI/Mesa developers... -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL
On 14 Nov 2008, at 16:10, Minh Ha Duong wrote: Le vendredi 14 novembre 2008, Yorick Moko a écrit : On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob, Glamo is not a forbidden topic. Having said that, if someone wants to seriously develop for the glamo, please get in touch with me and we will find a legally correct way to extend the smedia documentation to you. In fact we have done that in a few cases before already, but I'm not sure how much actual codes have come out of that. I think very little ;-) So we need some really serious coders that don't mind a tough challenge. Best Regards, Wolfgang wow, this is the first I hear about this I don't think it is very well know in the community. Maybe somebody can put a notification on the main page of the wiki about it? To say what ? I thought that was obvious from what you quoted. But in case it isn't: PROGRAMMERS WANTED Must have low-level graphics experience. Apply here. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
