-Caveat Lector- from: http://x27.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/viewthread.xp?AN=485083094&search=thread&svccla ss=dnserver&ST=PS&CONTEXT=928631145.1469644925&HIT_CONTEXT=928631145.146964492 5&HIT_NUM=6&REDO=1&group=soc.genealogy.medieval&frpage=getdoc.xp&back=clarinet <A HREF="http://x45.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=483994579&CONTEXT=928630767.1440219151& hitnum=22">Deja.com: "Blood line of the Messiah into the t </A> ----- >>Community: >>Forum: alt.talk.royalty >>Thread: "Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe." >>Message 23 of 77 Subject:"Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe." Date:1999/05/31 Author:V.Verenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> First of all, warning , the above topic coul not be taken too seriously, i prefer to refer to it as a current genealogical claiming,even though "not true one". This discussion will consist of two parts: A.first one , which will cover the jewish-ethiopian origin of Mountbattens, and through that lineage the future heirs of british throne.The article is taken from http://www2.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingene alogy.html and cover the "african" B.second one, dedicated to the analysis of Bagratids` genealogy from the Cleopa, brother of Jack,"step-father of Messuah",to first Bagrat. The main source is Varkhutsi Bagrationi`s book "The history of Georgia" both with Stewen Baldwin`s speculations on that account.The genalogy starts with Cleopa,goes through numberous generations to the house of ikshans of Armenia and kings of Georgia.Kings of Armenia entered into maritial relations with byzantine and bulgarian princes, through those marriages a plenty of daughters of byzantine dynasts was given as wifes to western princes, such as emperors of H.R.E.O.G.N, kings of Hungary etc,and many of Rurikids also concluded the marriage with greek princesses.Of course, it would not be hard to trace the relations between Arpads, Rurikids, Comnens etc and the head of present ruling houses.Even with ease! Part1.Dedicated to Bicenntiary Celebretion of Pushkin`s Birth (08.06.1799) I have put the complete article here: "Although the vast majority of African Americans are unfamiliar with Pushkin's monumental works, most students of literature are at least aware of his "Blackamoor of Peter the Great," an unfinished romance which relates the biographical data of the poet's great-grandfather, Ibrahim Petrovitch Gannibal his black great- grandfather. Some early critics wrongly suspected that Pushkin attempted to aggrandize the African lineage of this black forebear by playing up the family tradition that he was an Ethiopian princeling. However, Pushkin certainly did not need to embellish his ancestor's own personal history. For the accomplishments of Ibrahim Petrovitch Gannibal are proof of what any man -despite his colour - could rise to, given the opportunity. Ibrahim was treated as no less than a member of the royal family at court. To a divine rights monarch like Peter whose relationship to a nation of serfs was entirely paternalistic, a child as a personal gift or possession could only be regarded as one of his own kith and kin. Indeed, at the eight-year old Ibrahim's baptism, the Emperor himself was his godfather, while his godmother was the Queen of Poland. (the wife of Stanislav Leszynsky? or of August?) Although, as we now realize, no Blackamoor at any 18th century European court was merely decorative, in Ibrahim's case, Peter's expectations for him were as loaded with responsibility as those he would have had for his own son. If he was the Emperor whose patriotic duty it was to drag Russia spiritually and intellectually out of its Byzantine backwardness and into the future of the Enlightenment, then it would literally be Ibrahim's responsibility to care for his adopted country's physical formation and his defence of it. In 1717 the young blackamoor was sent to France for an education in both civil and military engineering. He studied at the Ecole d'Artillerie of La Fere under the brilliant Bernard Forest de Belidor and afterwards, at the Ecole d'Artillerie of Metz, an institution founded by the illustrious Sebastien Le Preste, Marquis de Vauban. Besides the education which prepared him for his long life of government service, Ibrahim returned from France with something he obviously regarded just as importantly - a name. Like any black kid today reaching back through time to clutch at whatever historical straw of affirmation he can reach for, Ibrahim not only identified as his model but appropriated as his surname that of the Carthaginian general, Hannibal. Although it could be argued that like Hannibal, he knew that he too would soon enough attain the rank of general, Ibrahim's choice probably betrayed an almost adolescent edge of race conscious defiance considering the threat this Punic potentate had once posed to Rome. Perhaps a better understanding of what Ibrahim intended to imply with his new name can be gathered from what we know today regarding one of the stock theatre characters of his time.Sofonbisba, a relative of the historical Hannibal, was easily the most popular of the 18th century heroines. During that period alone more than forty works, either operas or dramas, were composed with hers as the central story. It would appear that the proud African queen who fought Roman occupation to the point of committing suicide had become the personification of independence for a number of European states that were growing increasingly irritated with Habsburg hegemony. Considering that the defining line in a family's history was its patrilineal descent as it was just about anywhere else in the western world, Pushkin's preoccupation with his African ancestry is all the more telling since Ibrahim Gannibal was his maternal great-grandfather. Furthermore, Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended. This is genetically interesting since it explains why the poet, who is generally but mistakenly accepted as an octoroon, looks perceptibly blacker. The Mountbattens. Although most of the above history is related in discussions about Pushkin's African ancestry, no works - at least those translated or written in English - have ever commented on the descendent of the great poet. And this,despite the fact that Joel Rogers in "Sex and Race" (a privately-published work which has turned into a cult classic) traced the line of one of Pushkin's daughters into the Mountbatten branch of the British Royal family. (Perhaps the fact that Pushkin's daughter Natalie married a prince was too much for either the Bolsheviks or the West's liberal intellectuals who saw in the proletariat sentiments which had on occasion been expressed by the national poet, a spiritual source of the Revolution. Even if it was a well-known fact that Pushkin sold the serfs he had inherited so that he could afford the pampered wife he wished to wed, standard Soviet doctrine was that he had been the first to dip his pen in red ink.) Because she herself was not royal, Natalie Pushkin's wedding to Prince Nicholas of Nassau in 1868 was officially designated a morganatic marriage(Nicholas Willhelm was a second spouse of Natalie, first one was L.Doubelt,the chief of Tsar`s "gens-des-armes".) The term 'morganatic' is a hold-over from a stricter hierarchical time. This term of precedence became more familiar as an increasing number of European royalty towards the end of the last century were slowly forced to adjust to the social changes that had begun to affect the rest of the world.The morganatic title created for Natalie was Countess of Merenberg with the right to bear the title of Count or Countess of Merenberg by her children. A good indication of just how strict the old order had been can be seen from the fact that even though her husband was a prince of the House of Nassau, when it came time for her daughter in turn to wed, her marriage to a member of the Imperial Russian family was also declared a morganatic one. Although the wife of Grand Duke Mikhail, Sophia and the children she bore him were officially known as the Counts and the Countesses de Torby. (No matter how tempting to attribute it as an example of racism in high places, the fact that he was the offspring of a morganatic relationship was probably what prevented Sophia's brother, George, from succeeding his uncle William as Grand Duke of Luxemburg. Faced with a choice between George, Count of Merenberg and the abrogation of the Sallic Law, which excluded females from the succession,the Luxemburg parliament chose the latter allowing Charlotte to claim the throne as Grand Duchess of Luxemburg.) Interestingly enough, Sophia's daughter, Nadjeda, on the other hand, married someone of exactly her own social standing. George Battenberg was the grandson of Queen Victoria (the name would not be changed to Mountbatten until the outbreak of World War II). However, he too was descended from a royal morganatic line. Battenberg was the principality bestowed on the Countess Julie Hauke and her children after her husband, the Prince of Hesse, had been reconciled with his father for having eloped with her. On the day of Nadja's wedding in the Chapel Royal at Buckingham Palace the majority of the stories covering the event hysterically pointed to Nadjedja's African ancestry and snidely speculated about the probability of this branch of the Royal Family producing black babies. It should be pointed out, however, that the Times maintained both its integrity and its dignity. As was to be expected from a journal of such literary standards,the fact that the bride was a descendant of the great Russian poet was duely mentioned but what editorializing they did was instead centered on the morganatic backgrounds of both spouses. With so many published memories and histories of the Mountbattens available today, it is disconcerting to find so few references to Nadja. As the Marchioness of Milford Haven, she was not only Prince Phillip's aunt, she also was actually his stepmother during a period of his adolescence.. When his parents, the Prince and the Princes Andrew of Greece, were exiled at the beginning of the war, Prince Phillip was sent to the Mountbattens of Milford Haven since the Marquis was his mother's elder brother. (Incidentally, his mother's title, 'The Princess Andrew of Greece,' is an indication that hers too was a morganatic marriage like the others referred to above.) Intriguingly, the little published information on Nadjeda available can be found in a biography of Gloria Vanderbilt. Because of the kind of work it is, I cannot help but suspect that the few glimpses we get of Nadjeda are highly coloured. Not only is the reader given a detailed description of the negroid quality of her hair, (a highly implausible observation considering how many generations distant Nadjeda was from her Abysinian ancestor),but, to make for obviously even racier reading, she is portrayed as bisexual. Whether or not, as the author would have us believe, she along with her husband were earlier examples of the racous royals that 'Fergie' and 'Di'became will have to be verified for she also alludes to the extensive and priceless collection of erotica for which the Marquis and Marchioness of Milford Haven were supposedly famous. Until I have a chance to check sources for myself, I might have to accept that this, and not what I would be inclined to think, could be the reason why so little is related about her in the biographical works on Prince Phillip or other members of the Mountbatten clan. Since both her husband and his brother, Louis, who would in time be made Viceroy of India, were Navy men during the earlier years of their marriage, Nadja and her sister in law grew quite close and in fact made news together when they piloted a two seater De Haviland on a jaunt of Eastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. Even though the press does not appear to have commented on the combination at the time, it should be pointed out that Alice represented another racial addition to the Mountbatten bloodline since she was the granddaughter of Lord Temple, a scion of the banking house of Ashley which like the Hambros had converted from Judaism in the late l8th century. If there is any truth to the speculation about her relationship with Nehru,then there is a third racial element which, even with an association such as this, expands the ethnic ethos of the Mountbattens into something of almost global proportions. Taking this particular perspective on his background intoconsideration, we are provided with at least an inkling of what Prince Phillip's liberalism is perhaps based on. Given both the anti-black and the anti- semitic sentiments so pervasive during his formative years, he could not have been unaware of whatever pain or social embarrassments his family might have had to endure because of these two aunts' genealogies. Much has been made of how both the Queen's and his mother's families had to change their names (the House of Hanover (nope,The House of Saxe-Kybourg-Gotha) to that of Windsor and that of Battenberg to Mountbatten) to cope with the anti-German propaganda of the First World War. But no one has offered any insights as to how the Royal Family might have dealt with two ethnic strains which, if they had not been who they were, would certainly have caused them to be ostracized from those circles that wielded political power. If we play along with the protocols by which this echelon of society is governed, Prince Phillip's choice of best man at his wedding to the Queen, could be explained by the fact that as head of the house of Mountbatten, David, 3rd Marquis of Milford Haven, was his only option. Since the 2nd Marquis was already deceased, David, according to the rules of this game, had to be recognized head of the entire Mountbatten family, even if his uncle Louis had precedence over him at court due to the powerful position he occupied as Viceroy of India. Phillip's choice, however, was probably based on the simple reason that since he and David were, for at least a part of their adolescent years raised together, David was as much of a brother Phillip ever knew. Nevertheless, because of all the throat clearing the press had done at his aunt and uncle's wedding, and because of the scrutiny the members of his own wedding to the future Queen of England would be subjected to, I cannot help but suspect that Prince Phillip's decision was also a socio-political one. The very idea of the Mountbattens leaving themselves that wide open as targets to whatever racial slurs were possible during the early fifties, had to have been carefully calculated. Considering the fact that Pushkin was well aware of the kind of impact his literary success could have on the institution of slavery in the new world, I think we can be fairly certain that, for the same racial reasoning, he would have been quite pleased to know that a branch of the British Royal Family would today be numbered among his descendants. As a 19th century man he probably regarded any European royal family member as some sort of genetic distillate of political world power that could trace its origins, even in a few rare instances, to the Roman Empire. Finally, Pushkin would have found it humorously ironic that if only he had stressed his royal Ethiopian ancestry, he might have removed the stigma of 'morganatic' from the marriages of his daughter and his granddaughter. For after all, his great-grandfather was an Ethiopian prince. Furthermore, since the Ethiopian Royal House belonged to the dynasty founded by Menelik, the son of the Old Testament King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, this wedding from a religious perspective could have been seen as a particularly propitious one for it introduced the blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe." The end of first part. to be continued.... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ===== from: http://x27.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=484030642&search=thread&CONTEXT=92 8631145.1469644925&HIT_CONTEXT=928631145.1469644925&HIT_NUM=6&hitnum=1 >>Community: >>Forum: soc.genealogy.medieval >>Thread: "Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe." >>Message 2 of 8 Subject:Re: "Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe." Date:1999/05/31 Author:Leo van de Pas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:41 AM 5/31/99 GMT, you wrote: >A.first one , which will cover the jewish-ethiopian origin of >Mountbattens, and through that lineage the future heirs of british >throne. ==========This is wrong, Prince William may have 'Mountbatten' ancestors, but he misses out on the Torby strain. The article is taken from > http://www2.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingene >alogy.html =========This URL does not work for me. ===big snip=== For the accomplishments of Ibrahim Petrovitch Gannibal are >proof of what any man -despite his colour - could rise to, given the >opportunity. =========I somewhere read that he was quite a monster. He told a Greek girl he was going to marry her, even though her reaction was close to 'over my dead body' he did. She was forced and purposely slept around and after a year gave birth to a perfectly white baby. Then a divorce procedure started, taking (I believe) 25 years. At one stage he had her suspended from the floor by her arms and whipped her, to force her to agree with his statements that she had not only been unfatefull but had tried to poison him. The latter, if true, could speed up the divorce. As it took so long he took a German mistress and fathered many children and, after the divorce, married her. There are more horrendous aspects to this story. =====huge snip===== > The Mountbattens. >Although most of the above history is related in discussions about >Pushkin's African ancestry, no works - at least those translated or >written in English - have ever commented on the descendent of the great >poet. =========WHAT!? How can you say that? In front of me I have "Pushkin" written in French by Henri Troyat and translated into English by Nancy Amphous, published by George Allen & Unwin Ltd, London in 1974. ISBN 0 04 928028 7 And this,despite the fact that Joel Rogers in "Sex and Race" (a >privately-published work which has turned into a cult classic) traced >the line of one of Pushkin's daughters into the Mountbatten branch of >the British Royal family. ========I don't see the Mountbattens as a branch of the British Royal Family. OK you can have the descendants of Princess Beatrice, Queen Victoria's daughter. You cannot have Louis von Battenberg, 1st Marquess of Milford Haven, even if his wife was Victoria's granddaughter. His wife was a member of the German House of Hessen und bei Rhein. She was not an English princess. > ========huge snip========= >Mikhail, Sophia and the children she bore him were officially known as >the Counts and the Countesses de Torby. (No matter how tempting to >attribute it as an example of racism in high places, ===========racism had nothing to do with it. the fact that he >was the offspring of a morganatic relationship was probably ========not probably but definitely what >prevented Sophia's brother, George, from succeeding his uncle William >as Grand Duke of Luxemburg. Faced with a choice between George, Count >of Merenberg and the abrogation of the Sallic Law, which excluded >females from the succession,the Luxemburg parliament chose the latter >allowing Charlotte =========NOT Charlotte, her elder sister Maria Adelheid was Grand Duchess from 1912 till 1919 (and then abdicated). to claim the throne as Grand Duchess of Luxemburg.) > >Interestingly enough, Sophia's daughter, Nadjeda, on the other hand, >married someone of exactly her own social standing. George Battenberg >was the grandson of Queen Victoria (the name would not be changed to >Mountbatten until the outbreak of World War II). =====We will let you off this one, in fact it was the end of World War ONE, not two. =====huge snip===== >probability of this branch of the Royal Family Nadejda Torby married into a PRINCELY family, not a Royal or ruling family. producing black babies. > >With so many published memories and histories of the Mountbattens >available today, it is disconcerting to find so few references to >Nadja. As the Marchioness of Milford Haven, she was not only Prince >Phillip's aunt, she also was actually his stepmother =========I would say guardian. But Nadja got herself involved in a few scandals (Read the book "Little Gloria Happy at Last") and, perhaps, the less said about her the better. She had two children, a daughter, intellectually impaired I believe, and a son, a Marquess of Milford Haven, who married divorced and married again, who died young and did not make a place for himself in history. So I do think, fair enough she is fading away. during a period of >his adolescence.. >When his parents, the Prince and the Princes Andrew of Greece, were >exiled at the beginning of the war, Prince Phillip was sent to the >Mountbattens of Milford Haven since the Marquis was his mother's elder >brother. (Incidentally, his mother's title, 'The Princess Andrew of >Greece,' is an indication that hers too was a morganatic marriage ==========Rubbish. You do not understand how morganatic marriages work. At the moment we have "Princess Michael of Kent" and if Prince Edward does not get his Ducal title, Sophie is going to be Princess Edward. If Alice's marriage had been morganatic she would have become Countess von Oldenburg, Countess of Athens, anything but a Royal Princess of Greece and Denmark, and that is what she was. like >the others referred to above.) > >Intriguingly, the little published information on Nadjeda available can >be found in a biography of Gloria Vanderbilt. Because of the kind of >work it is, I cannot help but suspect that the few glimpses we get of >Nadjeda are highly coloured. Not only is the reader given a detailed >description of the negroid quality of her hair, =======Apparently the tightly curled hair was present for nine generations after Ibrahim Hannibal. And so if Nadja had tightly curled hair so what? (a highly implausible >observation considering how many generations distant Nadjeda was from >her Abysinian ancestor),but, to make for obviously even racier reading, >she is portrayed as bisexual. Whether or not, as the author would have >us believe, she along with her husband were earlier examples of the >racous royals that 'Fergie' and 'Di'became will have to be verified for >she also alludes to the extensive and priceless collection of erotica >for which the Marquis and Marchioness of Milford Haven were supposedly >famous. Until I have a chance to check sources for myself, I might have >to accept that this, and not what I would be inclined to think, could >be the reason why so little is related about her in the biographical >works on Prince Phillip or other members of the Mountbatten clan. > > Since both her husband and his brother, Louis, who would in time >be made Viceroy of India, were Navy men during the earlier years of >their marriage, Nadja and her sister in law grew quite close and in >fact made news together when they piloted a two seater De Haviland on a >jaunt of Eastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. Even though >the press does not appear to have commented on the combination at the >time, it should be pointed out that Alice represented another racial >addition to the Mountbatten bloodline since she was the granddaughter >of Lord Temple, =========More rubbish. Not Alice but the wife of Louis Mountbatten, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, is the granddaughter of Lord Temple. a scion of the banking house of Ashley which like the >Hambros had converted from Judaism in the late l8th century. If there >is any truth to the speculation about her relationship with Nehru,then >there is a third racial element which, even with an association such as >this, expands the ethnic ethos of the Mountbattens into something of >almost global proportions. > >Taking this particular perspective on his background intoconsideration, >we are provided with at least an inkling of what Prince Phillip's >liberalism is perhaps based on. Given both the anti-black and the anti- >semitic sentiments so pervasive during his formative years, he could >not have been unaware of whatever pain or social embarrassments his >family might have had to endure because of these two aunts' >genealogies. Much has been made of how both the Queen's and his >mother's families had to change their names (the House of Hanover >(nope,The House of Saxe-Kybourg-Gotha) to that of Windsor and that of >Battenberg to Mountbatten) to cope with the anti-German propaganda of >the First World War. But no one has offered any insights as to how the >Royal Family might have dealt with two ethnic strains which, if they >had not been who they were, would certainly have caused them to be >ostracized from those circles that wielded political power. =========Those ethnic strains you refer to did not touch 'the Royal House'. Perhaps people related to the royal family, and that is different. > >If we play along with the protocols by which this echelon of society is >governed, Prince Phillip's choice of best man at his wedding to the >Queen, could be explained by the fact that as head of the house of >Mountbatten, David, 3rd Marquis of Milford Haven, was his only option. >Since the 2nd Marquis was already deceased, David, according to the >rules of this game, had to be recognized head of the entire Mountbatten >family, even if his uncle Louis had precedence over him at court due to >the powerful position he occupied as Viceroy of India. Phillip's >choice, however, was probably based on the simple reason that since he >and David were, for at least a part of their adolescent years raised >together, David was as much of a brother Phillip ever knew. >Nevertheless, because of all the throat clearing the press had done at >his aunt and uncle's wedding, and because of the scrutiny the members >of his own wedding to the future Queen of England would be subjected >to, I cannot help but suspect that Prince Phillip's decision was also a >socio-political one. The very idea of the Mountbattens leaving >themselves that wide open as targets to whatever racial slurs were >possible during the early fifties, had to have been carefully >calculated. ==========Mountbatten was chosen, but was only a second choice. Oldcastle (Oldenburg) was considered as this was the name of his male line ancestry. He then did not choose his mothers name (von Battenberg) but the name adopted by his mother's relations in 1917. What I wonder about, and I may well be wrong. Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark renounced his title and became Philip Mountbatten. As royalty is supposed not to have a surname. When Queen Elizabeth II made him The Prince Philip, did he loose the Mountbatten tag? He is not HRH Prince Philip Mountbatten, Duke of Edinburgh. >Considering the fact that Pushkin was well aware of the kind of impact >his literary success could have on the institution of slavery in the >new world, I think we can be fairly certain that, for the same racial >reasoning, he would have been quite pleased to know that a branch of >the British Royal Family would today be numbered among his descendants. =========Mention one!!!! by name. >Finally, Pushkin would have found it humorously ironic that if only he >had stressed his royal Ethiopian ancestry, he might have removed the >stigma of 'morganatic' =======He was below 'class' and even having an Ethiopian Emperor as grandfather would not elevate his daughter....... from the marriages of his daughter and his >granddaughter. For after all, his great-grandfather was an Ethiopian >prince. ==========He may have said so, but it is not proven. I am inclined to believe it but others doubt it. >The end of first part. > >to be continued.... ===========Hope less errors in the second part Best wishes Leo van de Pas > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ===== from: http://x27.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=484059952&search=thread&CONTEXT=92 8631145.1469644925&HIT_CONTEXT=928631145.1469644925&HIT_NUM=6&hitnum=2 >>Community: >>Forum: soc.genealogy.medieval >>Thread: "Blood line of the Messiah" >>Message 3 of 8 Subject:Re: "Blood line of the Messiah" Date:1999/05/31 Author:V.Verenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leo van de Pas) wrote: Thank you Leo for amazing criticism. It was neither my nor friend of mine`s hand to write that mess of "rubbish", i had sent to newsgroup. I am completly agree with you.Wow! It is so professional, and i am totally humilated.No trust for me anymore. Well, sure there a plenty of mistakes in my posting, but still it is interesting to link "Battenberg" with russian nobility and with Hannibal, especially it is actual now, cause now in Russia Yeltsin and Luzkov spent enormous huge amount of money to celebrate the forthcoming annivesary of Alexander Pushkin`s birthday.Anyway, even if we will neglect the lineage of Hannibalm, still pedigree of Phillipe of "Mountbatten" is very interesting in russian connection.Because the very noble clan of Pushkin is related to Rurikids in a dozen lines, as well as to some Ostzee`s german nobility.Also , among the cousins of Pushkin there are Golytsins, Rzevskis, Dolgorukis, Pleeshevs and many others. Anyway , this version has been crushed and utterly destroyed ! If you will give me a chance to prove (an)other lineage of Jeshoua Ga`Nzri "collaterial descendents", i will be happy.Because , f.e S.Baldwin and people like him , there are just speculating on Toumanoff`s book and Doumin&company`s sources.Of course, that is not yet enough the reason to refuse DFA connection,but Vakhurshi Bagrationi`s version appealed to my very heart. It must be a bit provoking though!!!! Vadim. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Copyright © 1999 Deja.com, Inc. All rights reserved. ===== from: http://x27.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=484294291&search=thread&CONTEXT=92 8631145.1469644925&HIT_CONTEXT=928631145.1469644925&HIT_NUM=6&hitnum=5 >>Message 6 of 8 Subject:Re: "Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe."Date:1999/05/31Author:Leo van de Pas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:50 AM 6/1/99 +0400, you wrote: >Chris Bennett wrote: >> >> V.Verenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message >> news:7ithv6$4jn$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... >> <snip> >> > >> > Finally, Pushkin would have found it humorously ironic that if only he >> > had stressed his royal Ethiopian ancestry, he might have removed the >> > stigma of 'morganatic' from the marriages of his daughter and his >> > granddaughter. For after all, his great-grandfather was an Ethiopian >> > prince. >> <snip> >> >> Do we have any details of this descent? And how this prince tied into the >> Solomonic line? Is the descent documentable from Amharic sources? > >AFAIK, there is no evidence for Hannibal's royal descent except the words of >Hannibal himself. If there is some grain of truth in his story, he could be >a son of some local tribal chief near Red Sea coast. But I doubt even that. > The story I read was that Turkey was fighting the Ethiopians and after a victory demanded hostages and Hannibal was given. So he must have had some importance. He was taken to Constantinople where, on request of Peter the Great, he was kidnapped. In the meantime a brother of Hannibal had come over hoping to pay a ransome and take him home again. The brother went first to Constantinople and then to Russia but Peter the Great refused. In those days for an Ethiopian to make such a journey and with a sizeable amount of money, surely he must have belonged to 'some' better class? Sure, it is no 'proof'. Best wishes Leo van de Pas ===== from: http://x27.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=485083094&search=thread&CONTEXT=92 8631145.1469644925&HIT_CONTEXT=928631145.1469644925&HIT_NUM=6&hitnum=7 >>Community: >>Forum: soc.genealogy.medieval >>Thread: "Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe." >>Message 8 of 8 Subject:Re: "Blood line of the Messiah into the tightly intermarried royal gene pool of Europe."Date:1999/06/03 Author:Andrew S. Kalinkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Leo van de Pas wrote: > > At 05:50 AM 6/1/99 +0400, you wrote: > >AFAIK, there is no evidence for Hannibal's royal descent except the words of > >Hannibal himself. If there is some grain of truth in his story, he could be > >a son of some local tribal chief near Red Sea coast. But I doubt even that. > > > The story I read was that Turkey was fighting > the Ethiopians and after a victory demanded > hostages and Hannibal was given. So he must > have had some importance. He was taken to > Constantinople where, on request of Peter the Great, he was kidnapped. In > the meantime a brother of Hannibal had come over hoping to > pay a ransome and take him home again. The brother went first to > Constantinople and then > to Russia but Peter the Great refused. In those > days for an Ethiopian to make such a journey > and with a sizeable amount of money, surely he must have belonged to 'some' > better class? > Sure, it is no 'proof'. > Best wishes > Leo van de Pas An interesting story, biu how much it is reliable? Again I suspect that all these stories ultimately derive from Hannibal himself. And as 18th century russians knew exactly nothing about Ethiopia, he could tell anything. If we look on real situation in Ethiopia using contemporary Ethiopian sources, they give quite different picture. There never was any major war between Turkey and Ethiopia and any important Turkish victory. Turkey had at that time a garrison at the island Massawa, which had some importance as a center of trade. Since Ethiopia also profitted from this trade, Ethiopian emperors tolerated Turkish presence there. But this garrison (less than a hundred soldiers) hardly could make any threat for the Ethiopian kingdom. There is an interesting story about a minor conflict between emperor Iyasu I and Turkish governor of Massawa, happened in 1693, several years before supposed date of Hannibal's birth. The governor arrested a Egyptian merchant, who went through Massawa as emperor's trade agent, and seized the goods he bring for the emperor, because the merchant refused to pay taxes. The merchant complained to Iyasu, who immediately blocked all trade with Massawa and then arrived with his army. Turkish governor didn't even try to resist and immediately capitulated. He arrived to emperor's camp, returned all confiscatted goods and begged for mercy. Another point is that Ethiopians always were very concerned about dynastic troubles. To prevent it they employed a very radical measure. For centuries after the death of emperor all his children (except the new emperor, of course) were arrested and imprisoned in some isolated mountain fortress. There they spent the rest of their lives, unless some turn of fortune will allow such prince to ascend the throne. So it is hard to belive that emperor would agree to sent some prince to foreign court, but even more unbelievable that he would allow another prince leave the country with a sizeable amount of money to ransom the first. After all, this prince always could find another use for this money: hire a band of soldiers and make his own bid for the throne. So, although an idea of a scion of Solomonid dynasty becoming a russian nobleman is very tempting, it is unfortunately very unlikely. Most probably Hannibal was just a common boy, brough to Europe by slave traders and sold on slave market in Istanbul. But he was a man of great abilites and was clever enough to invent a story about his royal descent, which certainly didn't harm his career. Andrew S. Kalinkin Moscow, Russia ----- Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. 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