Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > > So we need to decide what we want. I think there probably is consensus > > about: > > > > - We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > > > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes > > > free hardware so much better. > > > > > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware > > > > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > So we need to decide what we want. I think there probably is consensus about: > > - We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want to. > - We want people with non-free firmware installed to get updates for

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:13:52AM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes > > free hardware so much better. > > > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 04:56:25PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths. > Good point. Then you get to do it the correct way. Deal? That's not how these things work though. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 04:22:23PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths. Good point. Then you get to do it the correct way. Deal? Cheers, --Toni++

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 12:16:01PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware > > > > There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates > > for its software. > > "Whatever". My main point is imho to both make it

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:13:52AM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware > > There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates > for its

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 10:26:03AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: I fscking do know what the docs say. They're ambiguous and it didn't work in either interpretation way I could come up with when I was last forced to install Debian on a system in a place where only wireless LAN was available, like a

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes > free hardware so much better. > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Hi, On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it. > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware. > > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g. >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:34:52 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: >The docs say to dump firmware files or packages on a USB stick: > >https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en I fscking do know what the docs say. They're ambiguous and it didn't work in either interpretation

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > Yes, I've never managed to get d-i to find firmware I've put on a USB > myself, and always resorted to this approach. I never got around to > reading the source to figure out where it expects to look (nor to > improve the docs etc.) The

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei wrote: Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. In this way the user don't

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 05:05:58PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote: Personally, as a developer, I will say there is one benefit of being so user-unfriendly that the usable ISO is hidden under the beware-of-leopard sign, which is that it serves as a "you have to be this technically aware to install

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 11:59:08AM +, Sue Spence wrote: > On 2 December 2017 at 11:49, Holger Levsen wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > > URL is https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/ > >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Last time I tried to download the non-free firmware and put it on another USB disk, I ended up in changing to a shell from the installer and unpacking the firmware blobs to the correct place manually because I wasn't able to figure out

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei wrote: >Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get >additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. >In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to >install Debian.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:39:30PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > IMHO you should document yourself > *before* trying something, and I am not even considering firmware at > all. Or, if you prefer, you should not assume that everything works out > of the box (in any field, thus not IT-restricted).

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Hi there, On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 13:17:13 +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > > > the

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On 2 December 2017 at 11:49, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > URL is https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/ > cd-including-firmware/ > > so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > URL is > https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net http-redirect to that URL? :) -- cheers, Holger signature.asc

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > > http://get.debian.org > > > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly > > > spelt out. > > > > besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough, > > it also lacks information about

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to install Debian. But if Policy can allow non-free firmware to go accompany with the ISO it

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:49:32AM +, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > http://get.debian.org > > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly > > spelt out. > > besides that I find that page still too confusing / not

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

El sáb., 2 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 05:17, Andrey Rahmatullin < w...@debian.org> escribió: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > http://get.debian.org > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly > spelt out. besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough, it also lacks information about the non-free images. --

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > > the ISO without non-free firmware? > > > > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

I agree with this mail. It was difficult for me, find the ISO download (especially non-free installer) El vie., 1 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 18:15, Luca Capello escribió: > Hi there, > > On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:39:12 +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > Quoting Paul Wise

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Hi there, On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:39:12 +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Quoting Paul Wise : > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > the ISO without non-free firmware? > >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 07:08:07PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > > > Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs. > > > > > > Why? > > It doesn't contain non-free firmware. > > OK, but that's an exaggeration. More often than not I was > able to install Debian without

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On 1 December 2017 at 14:39, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Quoting Paul Wise : >> >> It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free >> firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download >> the ISO without non-free firmware? > >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin : On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Currently the stable amd64 netinst is linked from the front page (top > right corner). It is, indeed. Never saw it before... It's a relatively recent improvement. Well, I

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

W. Martin Borgert dijo [Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100]: > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it. > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware. > > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g. > https://www.debian.org/download[s]/ >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin : Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs. Why? I suspect that this means that this image is useful to install a guest machine in a virtualized environment.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > Currently the stable amd64 netinst is linked from the front page (top > > right corner). > > It is, indeed. Never saw it before... It's a relatively recent improvement. > > Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin : Currently the stable amd64 netinst is linked from the front page (top right corner). It is, indeed. Never saw it before... Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs. Why?

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > the ISO without non-free firmware? > > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me

ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Quoting Paul Wise : It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download the ISO without non-free firmware? Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it. I didn't even know, that