On 11/09/14 14:36, Ben Hutchings wrote:
On Wed, 2014-09-10 at 21:36 +, Nick Phillips wrote:
[...]
Debian has a good and hard-earned reputation for not messing up
sysadmins' changes; upgrading to systemd - however wonderful it is (and
I confess to having no opinion on that) - without at
On Fri, 2014-09-26 at 13:04 +0200, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
On 11/09/14 14:36, Ben Hutchings wrote:
On Wed, 2014-09-10 at 21:36 +, Nick Phillips wrote:
[...]
Debian has a good and hard-earned reputation for not messing up
sysadmins' changes; upgrading to systemd - however
Svante Signell writes (Re: upgrades must not change the installed init system
[was: Re: Cinnamon environment now available in testing]):
As you can see from that bug report the systemd maintainers overrides
every attempt to change severity of that bug to wishlist and wontfix.
Is it possible
On Thursday, 11 de September de 2014 08:00:57 Marc Haber escribió:
On Thu, 11 Sep 2014 00:04:07 -0300, Martinx - ?
thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote:
Also, during Debian 8 installation, please, provide an altinit option (
http://pyro.eu.org/debian/pool/main/d/debian-altinit/ ?), so,
On Wednesday, 10 de September de 2014 21:26:50 Matthias Urlichs escribió:
Hi,
Steve Langasek:
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 08:28:36PM +0100, Marcin Kulisz wrote:
What about cases when init scripts doesn't come from any package but
are crafted by hand?
It's straightforward to check for
Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com writes:
On 09/09/14 22:34, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
I truly believe that making systemd the default without asking the user
to test it first, is going to cause more breakage and angry users than
doing it the other way.
s/making systemd
On Sat, 13 Sep 2014 05:58:11 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
Marc Haber:
sysvinit init scripts will suffer heavy bitrot in jessie+1.
Possibly. But let's get Jessie out the door first …
So that it'll be completely impossible to roll back?
Not that I seriously believe that we
On Tue, 9 Sep 2014, Mathieu Parent wrote:
4) Upgrade to systemd silently without asking the user AND add a grub
entry to use old init
These are the Linux bootloaders I came up within less than
five minutes of searching the ’net:
• Acronis OS Selector
• AiR-Boot
• AKernelLoader
• AMIBOOT
•
On Tue, 9 Sep 2014, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
We could delay the transition-on-upgrade by one release, but the
migration from sysvinit to systemd on a Jessie - Jessie+1 upgrade will
probably end up less tested (though systemd itself would probably be
more tested by then).
Nobody says jessie+1
On Wed, 10 Sep 2014, Nick Phillips wrote:
Debian has a good and hard-earned reputation for not messing up
sysadmins' changes
Agreed. This is about the only thing I can currently use to
argue for use of Debian over *buntu in some places.
So, is it actually feasible to provide such a prompt?
On Fri, 12 Sep 2014 16:27:58 +0200, Thorsten Glaser
t.gla...@tarent.de wrote:
Nobody says jessie+1 will not permit running sysvinit any more,
and the CTTE rulings explicitly did not touch that topic which
implies some amount of scepsis.
sysvinit init scripts will suffer heavy bitrot in jessie+1.
Hi,
Marc Haber:
sysvinit init scripts will suffer heavy bitrot in jessie+1.
Possibly. But let's get Jessie out the door first …
--
-- Matthias Urlichs
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
On Thu, 11 Sep 2014 00:04:07 -0300, Martinx - ?
thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote:
Also, during Debian 8 installation, please, provide an altinit option (
http://pyro.eu.org/debian/pool/main/d/debian-altinit/ ?), so, people can
choose between systemd / sysvinit (before 1st boot). I know that it
Marcin Kulisz wrote:
On 2014-09-09 18:23:58, Josh Triplett wrote:
Michael Biebl wrote:
Together with the /lib/sysvinit/init fallback binary in sysvinit and
(and optionally my patch getting merged for grub [1]), this should
provide for a hopefully seamless upgrade experience.
On Wed, 2014-09-10 at 21:36 +, Nick Phillips wrote:
[...]
Debian has a good and hard-earned reputation for not messing up
sysadmins' changes; upgrading to systemd - however wonderful it is (and
I confess to having no opinion on that) - without at least a debconf
prompt of a reasonable
Daniel Dickinson dan...@daniel.thecshore.com writes:
I will add that for a distribution that claims to be about it's users,
the systemd attitude of We're *going* to use systemd so 'suck it up
Buttercup' really stinks at a social level.
Debians' decision to support systemd already violates
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014, at 04:12, Ben Hutchings wrote:
On Tue, 2014-09-09 at 21:24 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 de September de 2014 21:18:55 Tollef Fog Heen escribió:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote locations
On Wednesday, 10 de September de 2014 03:12:16 Ben Hutchings escribió:
On Tue, 2014-09-09 at 21:24 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 de September de 2014 21:18:55 Tollef Fog Heen escribió:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote
On Wed, 2014-09-10 at 17:44 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Wednesday, 10 de September de 2014 03:12:16 Ben Hutchings escribió:
On Tue, 2014-09-09 at 21:24 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 de September de 2014 21:18:55 Tollef Fog Heen escribió:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
On 2014-09-09 18:23:58, Josh Triplett wrote:
Michael Biebl wrote:
Together with the /lib/sysvinit/init fallback binary in sysvinit and
(and optionally my patch getting merged for grub [1]), this should
provide for a hopefully seamless upgrade experience.
Agreed, this seems like the best
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 08:28:36PM +0100, Marcin Kulisz wrote:
What about cases when init scripts doesn't come from any package but are
crafted by hand?
Those can not be easily detected and compared for changes, as they are not
coming from any package and they may (and in some cases are)
Hi,
Steve Langasek:
On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 08:28:36PM +0100, Marcin Kulisz wrote:
What about cases when init scripts doesn't come from any package but are
crafted by hand?
It's straightforward to check for init scripts that are not owned by any
packages.
… and besides, systemd should
On Wed, 2014-09-10 at 18:37 +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
On Wed, 2014-09-10 at 17:44 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Wednesday, 10 de September de 2014 03:12:16 Ben Hutchings escribió:
On Tue, 2014-09-09 at 21:24 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 de September de 2014 21:18:55 Tollef
Hi!
Yes, please... I vote +1 for *not silently replace* sysvinit by systemd,
when upgrading from Debian 7, to 8.
Also, during Debian 8 installation, please, provide an altinit option (
http://pyro.eu.org/debian/pool/main/d/debian-altinit/ ?), so, people can
choose between systemd / sysvinit
I will add that for a distribution that claims to be about it's users,
the systemd attitude of We're *going* to use systemd so 'suck it up
Buttercup' really stinks at a social level.
Not to mention, as many have pointed out, transition to systemd is *not*
going to be painless and without
For the heck of it, I will add that if in my job I pushed out crap like
Network Manager and Pulseaudio at the time of introduction as 'the
saviour of the Linux desktop' as a production release I would have fired
long ago.
Regards,
Daniel
On 11/09/14 12:10 AM, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
I will
On 11/09/14 12:10 AM, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
I will add that for a distribution that claims to be about it's users,
the systemd attitude of We're *going* to use systemd so 'suck it up
Buttercup' really stinks at a social level.
Especially since 'Free' is supposed to be 'as in Freedom not
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried to
implement auto-migration of the old default mailer's configuration to the
new one. Also, we didn't switch to a different default mailer because the
new one offered a heap of features and infrastructure which the other
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 11:47:38 +0200, a écrit :
And you are saying that you can do all those tweaks, but you cannot
pin systemd-sysv to not install?
No, I'm saying that if I hadn't noticed systemd among the upgrades, I
would have gotten all these changes all of a sudden without asking
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 11:47:38 +0200, a écrit :
switch the default init to systemd as Debian
maintainers who would like to keep their sanity would do.
I have lost my sanity about system boot shutdown since when I have
switched to systemd. Really.
Samuel
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 09:11, Samuel Thibault wrote:
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried to
implement auto-migration of the old default mailer's configuration to the
new one. Also, we didn't switch to a different default mailer because the
new one offered
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 11:54, Samuel Thibault wrote:
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 11:47:38 +0200, a écrit :
And you are saying that you can do all those tweaks, but you cannot
pin systemd-sysv to not install?
No, I'm saying that if I hadn't noticed systemd among the upgrades, I
would
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 13:10:48 +0200, a écrit :
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 11:54, Samuel Thibault wrote:
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 11:47:38 +0200, a écrit :
And you are saying that you can do all those tweaks, but you cannot
pin systemd-sysv to not install?
No, I'm
Samuel Thibault, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 13:19:31 +0200, a écrit :
I believe most our users prefer to stay with sysvinit when upgrading from
wheezy
And I believe that most our users don't care.
I believe most of our users care about an upgrade to Jessie that doesn't
bring regressions.
On 09/09/14 13:10, Ondřej Surý wrote:
I believe most our users prefer to stay with sysvinit when upgrading from
wheezy
And I believe that most our users don't care. But I as a maintainer
and operator of several daemons I really do care to have as most
unified environment for debugging the
Hi,
Samuel Thibault:
So please fill a bug for every breakage you will encounter, so it
can be either fixed or documented.
There will be dozens of them then. Will they really be fixed in time for
Jessie?
We don't know yet. Would you rather have bugs which are not even reported,
and
On 09/09/2014 13:10, Ondřej Surý wrote:
And I'm saying that all we have is anecdotal evidence and we all
know what we step into when we run our systems on jessie or sid.
So please fill a bug for every breakage you will encounter, so it
can be either fixed or documented.
Did you look at the
On 09/09/2014 13:46, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to systemd after asking the user.
3) Upgrade to systemd silently without asking the user.
[...]
I
Matthias Urlichs, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 13:49:54 +0200, a écrit :
Samuel Thibault:
So please fill a bug for every breakage you will encounter, so it
can be either fixed or documented.
There will be dozens of them then. Will they really be fixed in time for
Jessie?
We don't know yet.
Samuel Thibault, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 14:11:28 +0200, a écrit :
I have made a quick poll among various people here and there, there is
no real consensus, either on switching to systemd by default or keeping
with sysvinit by default. So it seems to me a question during upgrade is
needed.
(more
Ondřej Surý, le Tue 09 Sep 2014 13:10:48 +0200, a écrit :
And I'm saying that I don't think this is an isolated case,
And I'm saying that all we have is anecdotal evidence
Our uni lab has switched to systemd, 20% of the machines do not boot.
The admin is currently looking at what the
2014-09-09 13:46 GMT+02:00 Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com:
[...]
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to systemd after asking the user.
3) Upgrade to systemd silently without asking the
2014-09-09 15:14 GMT+02:00 Mathieu Parent math.par...@gmail.com:
2014-09-09 13:46 GMT+02:00 Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com:
[...]
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to systemd after
On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, at 15:14, Mathieu Parent wrote:
4) Upgrade to systemd silently without asking the user AND add a grub
entry to use old init
I like this approach very much since it's least intrusive to the upgrade
process, but provides a emergency fallback in default installation.
O.
--
Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org writes:
When I got upgraded to systemd on july, my system was completely
misbehaving for several reasons related to my configuration:
- I had an ISO mount in my fstab, whose file didn't exist any more,
sysvinit never complained about it, systemd just
Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com writes:
Most of our users don't care as long as their machines continue to work
as expected after an upgrade.
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to
Vincent Danjean vdanjean...@free.fr writes:
I agree with your analysis. However, how do you think we can ask the
user ? We can have a debconf question. However, whatever the answer is,
we must not return an error (i.e. aborting the upgrade). It is really a
pain to recover when this occurs.
On 09/09/2014 16:59, Russ Allbery wrote:
Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com writes:
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to systemd after asking the user.
3) Upgrade to systemd silently
On 09/09/2014 17:01, Russ Allbery wrote:
Vincent Danjean vdanjean...@free.fr writes:
I agree with your analysis. However, how do you think we can ask the
user ? We can have a debconf question. However, whatever the answer is,
we must not return an error (i.e. aborting the upgrade). It is
Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org writes:
On 09/09/2014 17:01, Russ Allbery wrote:
The original plan was to have the question owned by some package that
could then switch the init symlink from one implementation to another.
That way, no abort is required. I'm not sure if that survived
Am 09.09.2014 17:15, schrieb Ansgar Burchardt:
Having only some systems switch to a different init system on upgrade
seems potentially confusing to me.
Agreed. We definitely should switch the machines on upgrades. There is a
good reason why we also did it when switching to dependency based
On 09/09/14 15:14, Mathieu Parent wrote:
2014-09-09 13:46 GMT+02:00 Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com:
[...]
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to systemd after asking the user.
3)
* Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org [140909 11:16]:
On 09/09/2014 16:59, Russ Allbery wrote:
I don't believe we should switch init systems on upgrade without at least
a prompt,
I think there are good arguments for both switching to the new default
and not:
Perhaps, but not without
* Mathieu Parent math.par...@gmail.com [140909 09:15]:
2014-09-09 13:46 GMT+02:00 Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez clo...@igalia.com:
[...]
So, when upgrading from Wheezy to Jessie, we have three options:
1) Keep the user init system (sysvinit most probably)
2) Upgrade to systemd after asking
* Michael Biebl bi...@debian.org [140909 11:43]:
Am 09.09.2014 17:15, schrieb Ansgar Burchardt:
Having only some systems switch to a different init system on upgrade
seems potentially confusing to me.
Agreed. We definitely should switch the machines on upgrades. There is a
good reason why
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote locations
that are only accessible via ssh) and the machine don't boots properly
you can find yourself in trouble.
Then surely you test the upgrade before making it live, using kvm
-snapshot or similar
On Tuesday, 9 de September de 2014 21:18:55 Tollef Fog Heen escribió:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote locations
that are only accessible via ssh) and the machine don't boots properly
you can find yourself in trouble.
Then surely
On 09/09/14 22:18, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote locations
that are only accessible via ssh) and the machine don't boots properly
you can find yourself in trouble.
Then surely you test the upgrade before
On 09/09/14 22:34, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
I truly believe that making systemd the default without asking the user
to test it first, is going to cause more breakage and angry users than
doing it the other way.
s/making systemd the default/replacing the user init system with systemd
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
On 09/09/14 22:18, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote locations
that are only accessible via ssh) and the machine don't boots properly
you can find yourself in trouble.
On 09/09/14 23:17, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
That way of testing is completely unreliable when we are talking about
low level stuff (kernel/udev/systemd).
No, it's not. It is able to emulate most of the concerns people are
talking about in this thread. Nobody has so far showed up and been
Michael Biebl wrote:
Am 09.09.2014 17:15, schrieb Ansgar Burchardt:
Having only some systems switch to a different init system on upgrade
seems potentially confusing to me.
Agreed. We definitely should switch the machines on upgrades. There is a
good reason why we also did it when
On Tue, 2014-09-09 at 21:24 +0100, Noel Torres wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 de September de 2014 21:18:55 Tollef Fog Heen escribió:
]] Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
But if you don't (Is not uncommon to have servers on remote locations
that are only accessible via ssh) and the machine don't boots
On 08/09/2014 15:27, Noel Torres wrote:
On Sunday, 7 de September de 2014 23:45:12 David Weinehall escribió:
On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:37:12PM -0700, Cameron Norman wrote:
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 1:57 AM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
Noel Torres wrote:
So we are clearly failing to
Hi,
Vincent Danjean:
If I recall correctly, when Debian switched the default MTA, upgrades
did not change the already installed.
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried to
implement auto-migration of the old default mailer's configuration to the
new one. Also, we
On 08/09/2014 18:07, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Hi,
Vincent Danjean:
If I recall correctly, when Debian switched the default MTA, upgrades
did not change the already installed.
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried to
implement auto-migration of the old
On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 18:07:18 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
Vincent Danjean:
If I recall correctly, when Debian switched the default MTA, upgrades
did not change the already installed.
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried to
implement
Quoting Vincent Danjean (2014-09-08 21:37:14)
On 08/09/2014 18:07, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Vincent Danjean:
If I recall correctly, when Debian switched the default MTA,
upgrades did not change the already installed.
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried
to
El lun, 8 de sep 2014 a las 9:07 , Matthias Urlichs
matth...@urlichs.de escribió:
Hi,
Vincent Danjean:
If I recall correctly, when Debian switched the default MTA,
upgrades
did not change the already installed.
You cannot have an MTA without configuring it, and nobody even tried
to
Hi Jonas,
On Montag, 8. September 2014, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I did not file a bugreport about that - where could I?
upgrade-reports seems to be the pseudo package you want. See
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=upgrade-reports :-)
cheers,
Holger
signature.asc
70 matches
Mail list logo
