]] Martin Steigerwald
> Regarding Systemd/SysVInit/OpenRC this approach comes with a considerable
> cost
> tough as it is such a core part of the system. One cost is that a lot of
> packages link against Systemd library which is part of the reason why Devuan
> exists. Or that GNOME and to
is a way toward healing wounds.
>
> Ian Jackson - 28.12.17, 11:20:
> > Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by
>
> Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
> > > Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however.
> >
to relive the past.
Given current human experience it is also not possible to change it. But maybe
there is a way toward healing wounds.
Ian Jackson - 28.12.17, 11:20:
> Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by
Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee&qu
Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement:
Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
> Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however.
> Any workable solution lies beyond "I am right and you are wrong".
Traditionally Debian ha
Hello Norbert.
Norbert Preining - 26.12.17, 15:28:
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2017, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > *This* is where I see the true source of the *ongoing* division in the
> > community. It's not over the technical decision. It's not even over the
> > decision-making process. It's that some
On Mon, 06 Nov 2017, Russ Allbery wrote:
> *This* is where I see the true source of the *ongoing* division in the
> community. It's not over the technical decision. It's not even over the
> decision-making process. It's that some people, most (but not all) of
> whom seem to be opponents of
Marty writes:
> I agree technically but I wonder whether strategic, ethical or social
> contract issues were given sufficient weight, or if the constitution
> even allows for such considerations. I don't know but this obviously
> would include some regard for the wider
On 11/03/2017 07:21 PM, Steve Langasek wrote:
On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 03:24:21PM -0400, Marty wrote:
The debate was fierce even within Debian, and the final vote was very
close. The 1% that decide for the rest, couldn't decide.
So you're saying that you're a strong proponent of upstart?
Le samedi, 4 novembre 2017, 01.39:31 h CET Scott Kitterman a écrit :
> On November 3, 2017 9:09:31 PM EDT, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > I think that Debian does need a decision making body of last resort.
> > I personally think these communication skills are critical for such a
> >
> The last time I was involved with an issue brought to the TC, it had
> been brought after zero discussion between the person filing the bug
> and the relevant team. Complaining to the TC about a bug that's been
> dormant for years only a few days after resurrecting discussion about
> it (AIUI)
> Steve> Better skills for handling interpersonal conflict can
> never
> Steve> be a bad thing. However, the Technical Committee exists
> as a
> Steve> decision-making body of last resort, when consensus is not
> Steve> possible (because two parties have incompatible goals, or
>
On November 3, 2017 9:09:31 PM EDT, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes:
>
>Steve> Hi Diane,
>Steve> On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote:
>>> I only just subscribed and only have read some of the
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes:
Steve> Hi Diane,
Steve> On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote:
>> I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion
>> so this may be a bit off topic or already discussed.
>> But
Hi Diane,
On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote:
> I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion so
> this may be a bit off topic or already discussed.
> But I was wondering if the project has thought about explicitly
> encouraging mentoring in techniques
On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 03:24:21PM -0400, Marty wrote:
> I recall the user debate being shut down before it had even started,
> complete with censored posts and deleted threads, because the Maintainers
> Have Spoken. Because they "did the work." Your user opinion is "noise."
> I recall the
On 10/31/2017 01:36 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Russ Allbery
There are two primary reasons why we're continuing to discuss this. One
is that the decision went a direction that a lot of people didn't, and
don't, like, and they're still unhappy about it. There's really nothing
that can be
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Thanks for your mail. I have trimmed vigorously the parts I
Ian> agreed with :-).
Thanks again for your mail.
I also trim parts where I think we understand each other and seem to be
in general agreement.
I want to
Hi,
I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion so
this may be a bit off topic or already discussed.
But I was wondering if the project has thought about explicitly
encouraging mentoring in techniques for handling interpersonal conflict
and helping members develop
Thanks for your mail. I have trimmed vigorously the parts I agreed
with :-).
Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement:
Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
> That said, I actually think in some cases we need to spend more energy
> rather than l
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by
Ian> Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
>> I am discussing how we handle conflict because I hope we can do a
>> better job of
]] Russ Allbery
> There are two primary reasons why we're continuing to discuss this. One
> is that the decision went a direction that a lot of people didn't, and
> don't, like, and they're still unhappy about it. There's really nothing
> that can be done about this; any other decision would
Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement:
Concerns about the Technical Committee"):
> I am discussing how we handle conflict because I hope we can do a better
> job of helping people feel valued even when we do not agree with their
> technical
+1
On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
>
> Russ> Martin Steigerwald writes:
> >> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
>
> >>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that
> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
Russ> Martin Steigerwald writes:
>> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
>>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
>> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.
>> If everyone has
Martin Steigerwald writes:
> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.
> If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if everything has
> been covered, then why are we
Dear Russ, dear Sam, dear people involved with Debian,
Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
> Martin Steigerwald writes:
> > I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init
> > system discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself
> > was
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> During posting in those endless mailing list threads back then and
> then being moderated by listmasters… asking myself "why me? … and not
> everyone else as well?"
For the record, listmaster@ did not moderate you. I'm sorry if you felt
that you
Gunnar Wolf writes:
> It's easy to reach a technically sound decision, but it's hard to uphold
> it without someone somehow getting sore about it. I don't know how
> inevitable this is, but I recognize it happens in many different
> areas. And a few sore people "hurt" more than
Martin Steigerwald writes:
> I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init
> system discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself
> was not purely technical, although back then I had the a feeling that
> almost no one agreed with me
Sam Hartman dijo [Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 08:18:48PM -0400]:
>
> As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed
> as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us.
> Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm
> to the members of our
Hello Sam.
Sam Hartman - 27.10.17, 20:18:
> As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed
> as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us.
> Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm
> to the members of our community in the
As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed
as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us.
Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm
to the members of our community in the process, and I would like to
explore whether we can do
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