Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-12-28 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
]] Martin Steigerwald > Regarding Systemd/SysVInit/OpenRC this approach comes with a considerable > cost > tough as it is such a core part of the system. One cost is that a lot of > packages link against Systemd library which is part of the reason why Devuan > exists. Or that GNOME and to

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-12-28 Thread Martin Steigerwald
is a way toward healing wounds. > > Ian Jackson - 28.12.17, 11:20: > > Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by > > Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"): > > > Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however. > >

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-12-28 Thread Martin Steigerwald
to relive the past. Given current human experience it is also not possible to change it. But maybe there is a way toward healing wounds. Ian Jackson - 28.12.17, 11:20: > Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee&qu

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-12-28 Thread Ian Jackson
Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"): > Any workable solution lies beyond blame, however. > Any workable solution lies beyond "I am right and you are wrong". Traditionally Debian ha

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-12-26 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Hello Norbert. Norbert Preining - 26.12.17, 15:28: > On Mon, 06 Nov 2017, Russ Allbery wrote: > > *This* is where I see the true source of the *ongoing* division in the > > community. It's not over the technical decision. It's not even over the > > decision-making process. It's that some

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-12-26 Thread Norbert Preining
On Mon, 06 Nov 2017, Russ Allbery wrote: > *This* is where I see the true source of the *ongoing* division in the > community. It's not over the technical decision. It's not even over the > decision-making process. It's that some people, most (but not all) of > whom seem to be opponents of

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-06 Thread Russ Allbery
Marty writes: > I agree technically but I wonder whether strategic, ethical or social > contract issues were given sufficient weight, or if the constitution > even allows for such considerations. I don't know but this obviously > would include some regard for the wider

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-06 Thread Marty
On 11/03/2017 07:21 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 03:24:21PM -0400, Marty wrote: The debate was fierce even within Debian, and the final vote was very close. The 1% that decide for the rest, couldn't decide. So you're saying that you're a strong proponent of upstart?

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-05 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le samedi, 4 novembre 2017, 01.39:31 h CET Scott Kitterman a écrit : > On November 3, 2017 9:09:31 PM EDT, Sam Hartman wrote: > > I think that Debian does need a decision making body of last resort. > > I personally think these communication skills are critical for such a > >

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Diane Trout
> The last time I was involved with an issue brought to the TC, it had > been brought after zero discussion between the person filing the bug > and the relevant team. Complaining to the TC about a bug that's been > dormant for years only a few days after resurrecting discussion about > it (AIUI)

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Diane Trout
> Steve> Better skills for handling interpersonal conflict can > never > Steve> be a bad thing. However, the Technical Committee exists > as a > Steve> decision-making body of last resort, when consensus is not > Steve> possible (because two parties have incompatible goals, or >

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Scott Kitterman
On November 3, 2017 9:09:31 PM EDT, Sam Hartman wrote: >> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes: > >Steve> Hi Diane, >Steve> On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote: >>> I only just subscribed and only have read some of the

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes: Steve> Hi Diane, Steve> On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote: >> I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion >> so this may be a bit off topic or already discussed. >> But

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Steve Langasek
Hi Diane, On Thu, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48:05AM -0700, Diane Trout wrote: > I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion so > this may be a bit off topic or already discussed. > But I was wondering if the project has thought about explicitly > encouraging mentoring in techniques

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Steve Langasek
On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 03:24:21PM -0400, Marty wrote: > I recall the user debate being shut down before it had even started, > complete with censored posts and deleted threads, because the Maintainers > Have Spoken. Because they "did the work." Your user opinion is "noise." > I recall the

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Marty
On 10/31/2017 01:36 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Russ Allbery There are two primary reasons why we're continuing to discuss this. One is that the decision went a direction that a lot of people didn't, and don't, like, and they're still unhappy about it. There's really nothing that can be

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-03 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes: Ian> Thanks for your mail. I have trimmed vigorously the parts I Ian> agreed with :-). Thanks again for your mail. I also trim parts where I think we understand each other and seem to be in general agreement. I want to

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-02 Thread Diane Trout
Hi, I only just subscribed and only have read some of the discussion so this may be a bit off topic or already discussed. But I was wondering if the project has thought about explicitly encouraging mentoring in techniques for handling interpersonal conflict and helping members develop

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-02 Thread Ian Jackson
Thanks for your mail. I have trimmed vigorously the parts I agreed with :-). Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"): > That said, I actually think in some cases we need to spend more energy > rather than l

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-11-02 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes: Ian> Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Ian> Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"): >> I am discussing how we handle conflict because I hope we can do a >> better job of

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-31 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
]] Russ Allbery > There are two primary reasons why we're continuing to discuss this. One > is that the decision went a direction that a lot of people didn't, and > don't, like, and they're still unhappy about it. There's really nothing > that can be done about this; any other decision would

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-31 Thread Ian Jackson
Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee"): > I am discussing how we handle conflict because I hope we can do a better > job of helping people feel valued even when we do not agree with their > technical

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-31 Thread Luk Claes
+1 On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: > > "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes: > > Russ> Martin Steigerwald writes: > >> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13: > > >>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-31 Thread Sam Hartman
> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes: Russ> Martin Steigerwald writes: >> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13: >>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion. >> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement. >> If everyone has

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-31 Thread Russ Allbery
Martin Steigerwald writes: > Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13: >> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion. > In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement. > If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if everything has > been covered, then why are we

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-31 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Dear Russ, dear Sam, dear people involved with Debian, Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13: > Martin Steigerwald writes: > > I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init > > system discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself > > was

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-28 Thread Don Armstrong
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > During posting in those endless mailing list threads back then and > then being moderated by listmasters… asking myself "why me? … and not > everyone else as well?" For the record, listmaster@ did not moderate you. I'm sorry if you felt that you

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-28 Thread Russ Allbery
Gunnar Wolf writes: > It's easy to reach a technically sound decision, but it's hard to uphold > it without someone somehow getting sore about it. I don't know how > inevitable this is, but I recognize it happens in many different > areas. And a few sore people "hurt" more than

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-28 Thread Russ Allbery
Martin Steigerwald writes: > I always found that just focusing on the technical aspects of the Init > system discussion left out… everything else. Even the issue in itself > was not purely technical, although back then I had the a feeling that > almost no one agreed with me

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-28 Thread Gunnar Wolf
Sam Hartman dijo [Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 08:18:48PM -0400]: > > As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed > as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us. > Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm > to the members of our

Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-28 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Hello Sam. Sam Hartman - 27.10.17, 20:18: > As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed > as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us. > Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm > to the members of our community in the

Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee

2017-10-27 Thread Sam Hartman
As a member of the technical committee, I've grown increasingly alarmed as I think about the impact of the issues that come to us. Yes, we're giving answers. However, I think we are doing a lot of harm to the members of our community in the process, and I would like to explore whether we can do