Mark Shuttleworth :
> That doesn't mean we should be cavalier, but I'm not going to shy away from
> an opportunity to do something much better now just because Microsoft did
> something a particular way 20 years ago.
It is something more than Microsoft whim. In the West culture we are
reading fr
@Mark You honestly feel that this change of windows button to the left
is best for Ubuntu? And the best time to make such change is in an LTS?
Personally I am less concerned about the windows way or the apple way
but rather that whatever usability decision the design team make should
have usability
** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)
Assignee: (unassigned) => Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl)
** Changed in: light-themes (Ubuntu)
Assignee: Mark Shuttleworth (sabdfl) => (unassigned)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
ht
Off-Topic... who cares now!
@ Mark:
Lucid Lynx is frightening good and nice-looking. Microsoft will spend
you another travel to the space for free; better said to the moon,
because they wish you out of the planet earth after the release surely!
Hold the course ... Bug [1]. :D
--
[light-theme] p
** Description changed:
Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right
side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
Workaround
To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
$ gco
I personally have found the change from left to right strange but easier
for me to use...but that may be the way my brain works
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug noti
On 18/03/10 14:31, Pablo Quirós wrote:
> I've read someone who, regarding this matter, said that he is tired of
> designers telling him how he should use his computer. And he is right. I
> think you are wrong in one thing: you say this is not a democracy, but,
> in the end, it is. Design is a democ
On 18/03/10 14:07, dayo wrote:
> ... are not just in it for the buck, like Shuttleworth, who
> basically bastardized the true Ubuntu spirit for corporate gain
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28philosophy%29).
>
Time will tell. I feel quite good about the contribution I'm making, but
you
On 18/03/10 14:01, dariocaruso wrote:
> We have for example ubuntu brainstorm, forum, and other ways to comment
> your work, but please, you have to say at all community exactly what we can
> say about the project and what we can do for canonical EXACTLY.
>
Brainstorm is great, and lots of go
This thread would be shorter, better and more serious for the design
team if we 'switch of' "emotions" finally.
# 194 is a back to topic and has interesting points. The design team
needs good points and facts for take good decisions. Stay by topic is
the most helpful thing that we can do.
One sol
Initially I didn't like the design change either. But looking at other
design improvements, I decided to forget (forgive may be a strong word)
about the decision. previously I used Sidux and that came only with KDE.
Since I like gnome I had to install gnome.
I guess its just 3 clicks to change the
@dayo read the second paragraph
https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/188
All the 3 reasons I quoted were mentioned multiple times everywhere.
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[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https:
@Pablo Quiros, I wish YOU were the Community Manager. Excellent post.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Desktop Bugs,
The fact that requests for valid reasons for this drastic change is
perpetually met with such childish defensiveness, just goes to show that
there wasn't any "design team" who came up with this. Order from above.
In true dictator fashion.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window con
I believe everyone has the right to comment on the issues at hand but if you
cant think up a reason against it other than
A. "Im not used to it"
B. "Its not like how windows does it"
C. Misquoting fitts law
then you shouldnt comment at all. Trolling and repeating the same reasons isnt
at all help
"We all make Ubuntu, but we do not all make all of it. In other words, we
delegate well. We have a kernel team, and they make kernel decisions.
You don't get to make kernel decisions unless you're in that kernel
team. You can file bugs and comment, and engage, but you don't get to
second-guess thei
Can we please focus this bug on the actual problems? There are at least two
that have been reported:
- The theme preview in the GNOME appearance panel shows the buttons on the
right for these themes.
- Switching to the theme moves the buttons to the left, but switching away from
the theme does n
"Are the poll results as biased as your "feelings", man? Comic stuff,
that there. At least the community ran a poll. How about canonical?"
I didnt say it wasnt based on feelings I said it was useless because not
everyone feels strongly enough to choose right or left because they
simply dont care.
@dariocaruso
You can contribute anywhere you can so if you can write a good bug report join
the testing team.
If you can develop start contributing code and apply to be a contributing
developer.
You can become a MOTU.
Just go to the irc channel of the team you want to join and ask where to st
"I have the feeling that 99.9% of users dont feel strongly about this
issue either way."
"Oh and just a note, quoting polls is completely useless because unless
its taken from a controlled group the results are always biased."
Are the poll results as biased as your "feelings", man? Comic stuff,
t
forget to say that Launchpad is a good way to integrate our support in
development of application
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a mem
@ Mark Shuttleworth
I'm happy to see how launchpad and canonical is open to personal
contribute, but it i don't understand what we can promote and what no.
We have for example ubuntu brainstorm, forum, and other ways to comment
your work, but please, you have to say at all community exactly wha
This is a very simple matter of people who feel strongly against a
change always seem to shout the loudest. I have the feeling that 99.9%
of users dont feel strongly about this issue either way. That the .1% of
people are just against change. Ive been using the buttons on the left
side since the up
Maybe Shuttleworth should let his Communitizer handle this, if he can't
keep his cool among the very community he claims this purple OS is
about? Very unbecoming to lose your temper like that. Even for a
dictator.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:mini
Mark Shuttleworth:
> However, it does line things up nicely for work I would like us to do in
> future. And the major argument against it appears solely to be "we're used to
> it here", which is important, but not overriding.
There are many places in applications, like tabs and panels, where clo
Yes, Mark: flamewars aside, please ensure buttons on the left are not
turning into a nightmare when GNOME Shell is used. I can confirm that
reaching e.g. the icon button in the left corner of a maximized window
is very likely to lead you to hit the hot corner, especially on
touchpads - and even for
Mark, I want to ask you: What is you vision about GnomeShell? It fit's
with what you are planing? Can we see blueprints of you plans?
At first I disliked the change, now I don't care. But I must say that I
hate half baked solutions... like the new GDM (you must admit it, the
default theme is horri
Hi Mark. I didn't take anything out of context, those were your words,
I just put quotes around them to emphasize how ridiculous they were. If
that's a problem maybe you shouldn't have said them.
As for personally attacking me, well I guess when you cannot win an
argument on merit, go for the ju
I'd like to add just a simple thing:
it's not easy to make every user happy...
... yes but it seems that nobody's happy.. :-D
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notif
I suggest one simple thing.
Move to another distribution if you don't like Mark/Canonnical's philosophy
GNU/Linux world is big enough to find the distribution that fit your needs.
Personally i don't find polite the way someone treated Mark (and at the same
time Mark treated the community) but i do
On 17/03/10 22:34, fewt wrote:
> "you don't get to second-guess their decisions"
> "You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team."
> "being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in
> everything."
> "There aren't any good reasons for that"
> "we a
@aysiu
The problem with your Forums post is that it says "this is what really
happened" and is, in fact, quite incorrect.
Some members of the design team asked that the window controls be
grouped on the left, and presented the visualisation. So it wasn't that
I "prefer it that way". I didn't like
XDD I'm really impressed how this decision has made so many noise,
they're are just buttons!! and can be changed!! so, where's the problem?
that everybody is used to the buttons to the right?, well, everybody is
used to other OS too
1. I agree in putting buttons to left, they're better when you're
Dear Mr. Shuttleworth & Ubuntu design team:
Now that you've reminded us, the end users, of our proper place in the
pecking order, I would respectfully request that you consider adding an
easy way of changing the min/max/close buttons from the left back to the
right. Perhaps by providing a simple r
I have been reading 100s of e-mails and shaking my head.
This "left, right buttons" issue is turning into a war over trifles.
The Ubuntu Developers have a right to develop Ubuntu anyway they like
(within reason).
YOU (plural) develop new themes and offer them to the users.
The users can make ch
People wouldn't have to second-guess your decisions if you would simply
explain the reasons for your decisions. A benevolent dictatorship goes
so much better when you're transparent about the process and give
rational explanations for decisions instead of just making arbitrary
decisions that appear
I highly prefer keeping the old layout but if you insist on putting
those buttons on the left side, at least use the same order as OSX does
(close, minimize, maximize). Creating inconsistency is bad, mmkay?
It would also be nice if the graphics would not break no matter which
order is used, but I
To quote Mark: "it means (a) we should have the best people making any
given decision" ... "the best person [...] should have that competence
recognised and rewarded with the freedom to make hard decisions and not
get second-guessed all the time."
You say yourself that you "should", not that you n
Does this even really help?
If I'm on the left side of the screen and really don't want to go all
the way to the right, I can just click top-left, which gives me all of
the options -- minimize, maximize, and close are there, as are a few not
available on the right.
But why wouldn't I just go all
@fewt you're doing really play the surprised? McDonalds... you can let
suggestions, feedbacks, reclamations. You go there to enjoy your
hamburger, but you can't enter in the kitchen and fry your own
hamburgers. You are not a kitchen-employee of that company. The same
Canonical's product Ubuntu. The
I don't think many people thought this was a vote. We're not voting, we're
complaining, in the only manner open to us as members of the community - in
a bug report. The problem is that no-one appears to be listening, despite
the excellent arguments against this decision.
And no-one has yet tried
I would like to add a feedback about the buttons on the left.
Everytime I look for close button on right and I have to force myself to
find it in left position I feel an anti-instinctive feeling that make me
sad. Really! When I revert it on right if feel better.
Just like that times I tryied to d
"you don't get to second-guess their decisions"
"You don't get to see a lot of what they see unless you're on that team."
"being an open community is not the same as saying everybody has a say in
everything."
"There aren't any good reasons for that"
"we are not voting on design decisions."
So, it
On 15/03/10 23:42, Pablo Quirós wrote:
> It'd have been nice if this comment had been made some time ago,
> together with a deep reasoning on the concrete changes that are in mind.
>
> We are supposed to be a community, we all use Ubuntu and contribute to
> it, and we deserve some respect regarding
Hey guys,
Well this is just another , friendly . complaint about the buttons on the left
of the window title bar!!
I would like to preface this with the statement made by mark shuttleworth:
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely"
Mr. Shuttleworth...with all due r
Nick, if you like them on the, you should change them to the left. But
/by default/ these buttons should be on the right for the many, many
reasons already discussed on Brainstorm, Planet Ubuntu, Ubuntuforums and
this very bug report.
Ubuntu. Linux for human beings. I hope that remains the case
Well, now I've switched to AwesomeWM and I no longer have any buttons.
Are you really intending to make Ubuntu an OS for geeks like me?;)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received thi
I can't believe people are getting so uptight about this. I switched my
9.10 box to use the latest themes that will go into Lucid and then
switched the buttons to the left. Must have taken me all of about ten
minutes to get used to them, and I have been using Gnome for nearly a
decade. I really lik
I believe that more is less and less is more.
If we clutter the Right and Left with unnecessary buttons... we are
doomed. Most of Ubuntu changes doesn't comply with the Gnome HIG. If
Canonical want's to in roads with the UI and "human" interfaces it going
to be vital to adhere to the Gnome HIG or,
Having the buttons on the left is not just aesthetic it is a functional
flaw... I attempt to click on File or Edit and accidentally close a
window I am working in. Ubuntu is for humans not geeks... correct? Why
would a functional change such as this be kicked down? Why would it be
automatic. Will t
# 158: I thought only loud; but my opinion is without analytic base and
yes, for many peoples it's relevant, probably, and I have to respect it.
Sorry for speaking loud my emotions and thinkings at that moment.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimiz
"I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options there"
it's been 1 day using the left design buttons order, and it have been
terrible (and i'm not a newbie). it would be easier to get use to it if
the pain of making this change would give me something in exchange.
i mean, if i
What really sad is, is the fact that peoples won't changes. For example in my
country (Germany) there are many peoples they don't like changes in customs...
they don't like new versions of programs or new versions of an OS. For that
reason still are many peoples who still uses Windows XP and Int
I think this bug report outlived its usefulness. It seems (sadly) that
no more information will be given from the developer side and the state
can be considered "won't fix" (for better or for worse).
Furthermore, new people arriving here will (understandably) have no
patience to read the entire th
Hello.
With the buttons to the left I see 2 main problems:
1 .- You can close / minimize / maximize when you really wanted click into the
menu.
2 .- The window has too much "weight" of objects in his left, and nothing on
your right. I do not see the window compensated.
As Mark says, if you fores
Well the situation is obvious. The community has in these bugreports
responded with a lot of valid arguments with pros and cons on an
unannounced and appearently irreversible issue. Canonical until now
stated vary vague that it has to do with some experiments due for Ubuntu
10.10. So on this day M
#150:
Ubuntu is Ubuntu. It isn't a Mac-OS and it isn't a Windows-OS. It hasn't
to be similiar with any Operating Systems like Android, Win, Mac, BeOs,
... The most Peoples comes from Windows and if it isn't the same they
will return to Windows is a bad and old argument. If I install another
OS I k
>
> Ubuntu is supposed to have one application per task and, more
> importantly, sane defaults. Yes, customizability is part of the appeal
> of a Linux distro, but the sane defaults should also be a selling point.
> So, yeah, put the controls back on the right as they were and then have
> a simple
"I don't think anyone's purposes are served by approaching this as an
'or' question and dwelling on personal and pseudo-logical reasons for
supporting one form or another. Some people like the previous Windows-
style setup; others are fond of the left, OSX-like orientation."
Well, as I explained b
I don't think anyone's purposes are served by approaching this as an
"or" question and dwelling on personal and pseudo-logical reasons for
supporting one form or another. Some people like the previous Windows-
style setup; others are fond of the left, OSX-like orientation.
As we've seen from the
Hi,
I strongly disagree with this change in ubuntu 10.04.
Most of the time i use windows at work.
It will be very confusing to see the three controls on the left, and the
next day on the right and so on.
The more ubuntu looks like windows, the more (new) people will give it
a try.
In my opinio
"Why should it be wrong to place the buttons on the left side like on
Mac OS X."
It isn't on the left side like Mac OS X. It's on the left side unlike
Mac OS X.
Here are some key differences:
* On Mac OS X, the close button is still the outside button, even though
the controls are on the left.
I wanted to throw my voice out there as one saying "not in an LTS".
This was an unexpected change which I promptly reverted.
To reply to #146, the issue is not being like Mac or Windows (though if
I had to pick, I'd pick Windows because it makes evangelism easier--much
larger base of Windows user
Now this revelation I've found to be intriguing. I spoke of muscle
memory before in my previous comment having using operating systems with
the controls always on the right Min > Max > Close.
I have been using Lucid with the metacity changes for almost two weeks.
Now, while at work using Windows b
Emmanuel Touzery wrote 7 hours ago:
"1. i'm left handed and driving the mouse with the right hand, i think lots of
left-handed people do that
2. this will make wine applications look even more out of place, also
chrome has the problem. for wine i think it's more or less unfixable.
but i understa
This "bug" desn't affect me at all. Actually, this "bug" makes me very
happy.
I use Mac OS X a lot, so I'm used to having these buttons on the left
side. I also use Ubuntu and I always change the layout so the buttons
are on the left side in my Ubuntu-installs. I only use Mac OS X and
Ubuntu (with
I am agree with that decision what Canonical took. I noticed I am faster
with the left-option (mouseway) and it's really nice looking. Why I
didn't noticed it before? But true, it's really better. Now we know too
that it was made for a special reason... so I am ignoring all words
against and hope t
Mark mentions data collection - is there somewhere central where this is
happening? There is data already spread all over various forums, blogs
etc
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You re
As far as I understand this was all under wraps right up to the freeze -
zero user consultation.
What happened to consistency? Perhaps one should focus on getting the
desktop experience nice and solid instead of changing the desktop search
engine, messaging client, window buttons, photo manager, m
I agree that this is a great communicational challenge though. :)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Desktop Bugs, whic
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely,
and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options
there."
— Mark Shuttleworth
Is the plan to move windows' menus and then most menubars away from right under
the close button? Even then, in my opinion this
theres no need to change the buttons to the left until 10.10. For God's
sake - it's an LTS release, not an experimental joke.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notifi
(ok it seems wine can use standard window titlebar nowadays so i take
that back...)
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
two things:
1. i'm left handed and driving the mouse with the right hand, i think
lots of left-handed people do that
2. this will make wine applications look even more out of place, also
chrome has the problem. for wine i think it's more or less unfixable.
but i understand that wine is not really
The buttons definitely need to stay on the right, or at least have an
option to switch between instead of just changing your theme. I have to
use Windows at work and have to use it for a lot of games and such.
Switching between where my window controls are in each OS will suck.
PLEASE keep the con
Hm, I am left-handed but I cannot use the window controls on the left side - it
is just weird and extremely awkward even for a left-handed guy..
Cheers, Eddie
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back to
"menu:minimize,maximize,close"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/5
I'm getting the feeling that most on this bug report did not read Marks full
comments.
He states in comment 110
" The default position of the window controls will remain the left,
throughout beta1."
He and other Ubuntu devs had said this is the way its going to be and no
changes are considered a
"The default position of the window controls will remain the left,
throughout beta1. We're interested in data which could influence the
ultimate decision. There are good reasons both for the change, and
against them, and ultimately the position will be decided based on what
we want to achieve over
I was thinking the same as Diff Handy: What will be of Gnome Shell? All
this works would be on vain because Gnome 3.0 it's at the corner. For my
part I really love the standard Gnome 2.28, and I've used Windows, KDE2,
KDE3 and Gnome 1. I must say the Gnome "classical" interface is the best
there is
Mark your answer makes no sense at all. IF you decide to add something
new on the right side in 10.10, then switch the buttons in 10.10, and
people will get use to that much quicker, 'cause they will see WHY you
did that. If the change is in 10.04, it will just look like a nonsense
decision, but it
This change does not really affect me, the only thing I find wrong with this
decision is that ubuntu users where not told about any of the changes which
would happen, and had to find it out themselves from the alpha release :(
On 16 March 2010 09:52, meborc wrote:
> Mark - how about you moving t
2c
I decided to stick with the buttons on the left after the change, to see
how it worked out for me. I'm still getting used to it but having the
maximise to far left, I find useful, it's the easiest to locate and the
button I use most. I've noticed that I don't (or haven't so far) closed
any wind
Mark, I appreciate you commenting on this issue. Might I suggest that if
you do want to relocate the controls to the left hand side consider at
least leaving the close button on the right for this LTS release - for
consistency (pretty much all tabs, multiple document interfaces etc.
have the close
Mark - how about you moving the exiting new stuff you are going to
implement to the left side, and leaving buttons to the right? :) or is
the menu going to be the obstacle then?
Why is the right upper corner so important? I guess it has something to
do with the indication pop-ups. But LOWER right
Something will be implemented on the right side of the windows in the
future.
Let's suppose that it will happen during 10.10 development.
I think that there are two possibilities.
1 - Both RC and final releases of Lucid will have the buttons on the
right. This alpha3-beta1-beta2 phase is used to
I have nothing against buttons on the left side. What I find really odd
is their order: the most frequently used ones should be in the more
accessible positions, so I'm quite sure that the close button should be
in the corner.
--
[light-theme] please revert the order of the window controls back t
Regarding Shuttleworth's hints of new features using the right corner
coming in 10.10...
I've generally supported all the choices to use incomplete features and
software in the past, as I've seen the need for things to be given time
to bed in before the next LTS (empathy and software centre being
Whatever Mark has got up his sleeve, I think it's a very bad decision to
partially implement it in an LTS release. A lot of the user-base (read:
non-geek users) will be using this release until the next LTS in 2012.
Where is the logic in leaving them stuck with a partially implemented
feature for
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely"
Well... but my mouse pointer default position, when "idle", is on the
right... I think that's the same for almost every right handed people I
observe!
Is this only valid for right handed side of the population? Not sure:
Most
The biggest issue with this left/right positioniong is consistency.
Other applications have already be mentioned. But there is also Ubuntu
Netbook Remix. When one maximizes a window, the close button is on the
right hand side again. That's very confusing.
So, if the controls are to remain on the l
Non-troll comment for sabdfl or the canonical design team. As a Lucid
tester, how will you get "data" on me as a single user changing back to
the more sane (imo) right side default? Seriously, is there a button
that says, "Send button position gconf data to canonical"? I'll click it
if there is one
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely,
and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options
there. It's much easier to do that if we make this change now."
It'd have been nice if this comment had been made some time ago,
together with a deep reasonin
** Description changed:
Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also
re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right
side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close).
Workaround
To revert to old layout, enter in terminal:
$ gco
It's nice to get some comeback on this, but we still don't understand
the reasoning behind the decision. If there is stuff coming in 10.10
that might necessitate moving the buttons, and you can't tell what they
are - fair enough, but why not make the change in 10.10!
The usability _is_ impaired wi
Unlike many here, I don't have a huge issue with moving the window
controls to the left side -- like many, I was relieved that the change
is planned only for the light themes, although all other themes are
currently broken.
However, even given that, the control order is odd. Again, unlike many
her
> Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely, and
>I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options
> there.
Then the best solution would be to introduce the right/left change when
you have implemented that technology. That way, the user can weigh the
be
So in the *ahem* "light" of this declaration, should we file bugs for
applications that do not consistently follow the "close goes on the
left" style within closable UI elements like tabs - for instance,
Nautilus (both in the sidebar and the file manager tabs) and Firefox?
Shouldn't these apps be p
Mark, as much as I appreciate the response, it would be interesting (and
would allow more constructive discussions) if it was a little less
vague. Do sketches (even very rough ones) of new ideas for the right
side already exist? Or possibilities for the right side will be thought
only *after* the r
@Mark
I think this is a very sensitive decision to take in a LTS release, considering
how many users are unable/unwilling to learn how to change it. It will create
that kind of frustration that is not critical but enough to create "hatred" to
the brand. There are already several shortcomings/pap
Thank you Mark! In a school environment, we tend to adopt the LTS
release and keep it until a few months (read: summer break) after the
next LTS is released. So, for now, any computers with the new LTS
distribution here will feature buttons on the right for the sake of
consistency.
However, that
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