Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-12-21 Thread Neal H. Walfield
Hi Simo, On Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:28:01 +0200, Simo Sorce wrote: > At this time, as far as I know, there is no OpenPGP work of any kind on > supporting PQC algorithms. Furthermore the way we use signatures in RPM > really has no resemblance to the scenarios OpenPGP was built for. > > So we should

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-12-04 Thread Jonathan Dieter
On Thu, 2022-12-01 at 00:41 +, Daniel Alley wrote: > > * zchunk and deltarpm both reimplement / "bundle" multiple different > hashing algorithms zchunk does have bundled versions of various hashing algorithms, but, if it's compiled against OpenSSL (as it is in Fedora), it uses the OpenSSL

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-12-01 Thread Simo Sorce
On Thu, 2022-12-01 at 00:41 +, Daniel Alley wrote: > I'm quite not sure how one would go about empirically measuring > something like that - at least in the general case. It might be an > interesting research topic. So no, unfortunately I don't really have > hard evidence for this. We did

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Daniel Alley
I'm quite not sure how one would go about empirically measuring something like that - at least in the general case. It might be an interesting research topic. So no, unfortunately I don't really have hard evidence for this. I just know that of all the C libraries I've looked at, in my personal

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, Daniel Alley said: > 100 C packages with 100 separate copies of sha256.c sitting in their source > trees (which seems like an entirely realistic comparison) You keep saying this - do you have any evidence that this is the case? -- Chris Adams

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Daniel Alley
> I think almost all of these qualify as "Core system libraries that > pretty much everything depends on.". > Building their C dependencies from vendored copies (if that is even > supported) and statically linking them seems like a pretty bad idea in > almost all cases here, especially for things

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Simo Sorce
On Wed, 2022-11-30 at 18:26 +, Simon Farnsworth via devel wrote: > On Wednesday, 30 November 2022 17:47:16 GMT Fabio Valentini wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:21 PM Daniel Alley wrote: > > > I feel like there is insufficient recognition of the extent to which C > > > libraries do

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Simon Farnsworth via devel
On Wednesday, 30 November 2022 17:47:16 GMT Fabio Valentini wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:21 PM Daniel Alley wrote: > > I feel like there is insufficient recognition of the extent to which C > > libraries do "bundling". Not "bundling" in the sense of vendoring a > > whole library, but in

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 6:21 PM Daniel Alley wrote: > > > Do I really need to explain this point? I think linking against system > > OpenSSL is *way better* than statically linking to a random vendored > > copy of it. > > There are maybe about 100-120 libraries for which this is obviously the

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Daniel Alley
> Do I really need to explain this point? I think linking against system > OpenSSL is *way better* than statically linking to a random vendored > copy of it. There are maybe about 100-120 libraries for which this is obviously the case. openssl, glibc, glib2, zlib, libxml2, libcurl, kde

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Stephen Smoogen
On Wed, 30 Nov 2022 at 07:54, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:54:10AM +, Peter Robinson wrote: > > Hi Fabio, > > > > Been meaning to reply to this, but it got lost in the mail pile. > > > > > > > But running `cargo fetch` with a clean cache pulls down *390* > crates.

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Neal Gompa
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 8:16 AM Fabio Valentini wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM Peter Robinson wrote: > > > > > This is true, and probably also not "fixable". We need to make some > > > amount of non-upstreamable patches to some crates (most notably, > > > removing Windows- or mac

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM Peter Robinson wrote: > > > This is true, and probably also not "fixable". We need to make some > > amount of non-upstreamable patches to some crates (most notably, > > removing Windows- or mac OS-specific dependencies, because we don't > > want to package those),

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 11:54:10AM +, Peter Robinson wrote: > Hi Fabio, > > Been meaning to reply to this, but it got lost in the mail pile. > > > > But running `cargo fetch` with a clean cache pulls down *390* crates. Of > > > these, it looks like 199 (!) are already packaged as

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-30 Thread Peter Robinson
Hi Fabio, Been meaning to reply to this, but it got lost in the mail pile. > > I _very much_ appreciate all the work you and the other Rust SIG folks > > (Igor and Zbyszek in particular but I'm sure others as well!) have put into > > packaging rust apps and crates and all of the systems around

Re: [Rust] Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-04 Thread Matthew Miller
On Tue, Nov 01, 2022 at 01:30:01PM -0500, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote: > I've finally gotten round to doing some polishing and getting it > packaged: > - updates for Fedora 36, 37, and Rawhide: > https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/?search=rust-update-set-0.0.1=python-rust-update-set > -

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-11-04 Thread Neal H. Walfield
Hi Simo, On Fri, 14 Oct 2022 22:36:09 +0200, Neal H. Walfield wrote: > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:28:01 +0200, > Simo Sorce wrote: > > At this time, as far as I know, there is no OpenPGP work of any kind on > > supporting PQC algorithms. > > The German BSI contracted MTG AG to design and implement

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-01 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Matthew Miller wrote: > Rust tends to be more fine-grained. I don't think this is necessarily > rust-specific _really_ — I think it's a trend as people get more used to > this way of doing things. And this is inherently a PITA to package, unfortunately. It is indeed not Rust-specific, other new

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-01 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 7:07 PM Demi Marie Obenour wrote: > > On 11/1/22 10:40, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:04:39PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > >> For intra-project dependencies (i.e. bevy components depending on > >> exact versions of bevy components), this is kind of

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-01 Thread Michel Alexandre Salim
Hi all, Just a note that over the summer, our intern did a project to try and address some of these issues (namely, that while it's trivial to convert a single crate to an RPM, trying to automate packaging all the dependencies and making sure that you don't break anything else while doing so is

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-01 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Tue, Nov 1, 2022 at 3:40 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:04:39PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > I'll respond inline. > > Me too -- and apologies for the delay. > > > > > I fundamentally disagree with Kevin on a deep level about "entirely > > > useless", but ... find

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-01 Thread Demi Marie Obenour
On 11/1/22 10:40, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:04:39PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: >> I'll respond inline. > > Me too -- and apologies for the delay. > > >>> I fundamentally disagree with Kevin on a deep level about "entirely >>> useless", but ... find myself kind of

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-11-01 Thread Matthew Miller
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:04:39PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > I'll respond inline. Me too -- and apologies for the delay. > > I fundamentally disagree with Kevin on a deep level about "entirely > > useless", but ... find myself kind of agreeing about the "unpackagable" > > part. I mean:

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-25 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/24/22 23:23, Petr Menšík wrote: Hi, maybe it was already answered. Not long ago Thunderbird switched from using installed GPG to its own implementation inside. I think I have found the library part and it seems to be in C++, which should be much more easier to integrate than rust

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-24 Thread Petr Menšík
Hi, maybe it was already answered. Not long ago Thunderbird switched from using installed GPG to its own implementation inside. I think I have found the library part and it seems to be in C++, which should be much more easier to integrate than rust libraries. I think the project link is:

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-24 Thread Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:04:39PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM Matthew Miller > wrote: > > > > I _very much_ appreciate all the work you and the other Rust SIG folks > > (Igor and Zbyszek in particular but I'm sure others as well!) have put into [… and Fabio

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-22 Thread Demi Marie Obenour
On 10/20/22 10:01, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 9:39 AM Kevin Kofler via devel > wrote: >> Rust needs to adapt to become relevant in GNU/Linux distributions. >> > > There is nobody pushing for Rust to improve anymore. When Igor and I > were building out Fedora Rust, we did some

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-21 Thread Blaise Pabon
To Neal's point, I had the audacity to suggest some improvements along the lines of docutils and the response was underwhelming. https://users.rust-lang.org/t/rust-analog-to-the-python-compilers-docutils/82813?u=blaisep On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 10:02 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Miro Hrončok
On 20. 10. 22 14:26, Panu Matilainen wrote: Which of the following will happen: 1) rpm will gain ExclusiveArch: %{rust_arches} 2) we will stop requiring the above in Rust packages, as Rust is 100% available 3) rpm will %ifarch %{rust_arches} this change 4) something else (what?) IMHO if we do

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Miro Hrončok
On 20. 10. 22 12:11, Fabio Valentini wrote: Which of the following will happen: 1) rpm will gain ExclusiveArch: %{rust_arches} 2) we will stop requiring the above in Rust packages, as Rust is 100% available 3) rpm will %ifarch %{rust_arches} this change 4) something else (what?) IMHO if we do

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-20 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 9:39 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Matthew Miller wrote: > > I fundamentally disagree with Kevin on a deep level about "entirely > > useless", but ... find myself kind of agreeing about the "unpackagable" > > part. I mean: clearly we've found a way, but I'm really

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-20 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Matthew Miller wrote: > I fundamentally disagree with Kevin on a deep level about "entirely > useless", but ... find myself kind of agreeing about the "unpackagable" > part. I mean: clearly we've found a way, but I'm really not sure we're > providing a lot of _value_ in this approach, and I'm also

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Peter Robinson wrote: > Why are they insecure? This is public open data, not banking data, > where the data being downloaded is verifiable by the rpm signatures > and signing keys. The metadata is not, at least not currently. Kevin Kofler ___

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/20/22 12:03, Miro Hrončok wrote: On 10. 10. 22 16:32, Ben Cotton wrote: For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous for its limitations and flaws, and especially in recent years has proven a

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-20 Thread Blaise Pabon
Lots of good wisdom here, thank you. IMHO Rust will benefit from whatever "adult supervision" Fedora can provide. -Blaise (currently undergoing treatment for injuries sustained supporting npm in production) On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 7:05 AM Fabio Valentini wrote: > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:25

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:03 AM Miro Hrončok wrote: > > On 10. 10. 22 16:32, Ben Cotton wrote: > > For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser > > for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous > > for its limitations and flaws, and especially in

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Miro Hrončok
On 10. 10. 22 16:32, Ben Cotton wrote: For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous for its limitations and flaws, and especially in recent years has proven a significant burden to RPM development. In

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-20 Thread Jelle van der Waa
On 19/10/2022 13:56, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: On 19/10/2022 10:31, Neal Gompa wrote: HTTPS does not help with that. It's just a transport protocol. It will. All requests will be encrypted. ISP will only see server's IP-address and its hostname (only if SNI is enabled). HTTPS does

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Sandro
On 19-10-2022 14:51, Stephen Smoogen wrote: On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 at 05:09, Sandro wrote: On 19-10-2022 10:31, Neal Gompa wrote: On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 4:01 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel We don't have a "main mirror" for that to work. dl.fedoraproject.org would be what this would aim at

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Peter Robinson
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 1:47 PM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 19/10/2022 14:14, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > > IOW, the impact of AES on server peformance will vary depending > > on CPU models, NIC models / network switches and whether other > > workloads are competing for CPU time.

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Peter Robinson
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 9:33 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 4:01 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel > wrote: > > > > On 19/10/2022 09:48, Peter Robinson wrote: > > > Sure but as mentioned it's public data, and the modification, and I > > > covered that in my reply, would be picked up

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Stephen Smoogen
On Wed, 19 Oct 2022 at 05:09, Sandro wrote: > On 19-10-2022 10:31, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 4:01 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel > > > We don't have a "main mirror" for that to work. > > dl.fedoraproject.org would be what this would aim at but we would probably have to change

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Chris Adams
Once upon a time, Vitaly Zaitsev said: > On 19/10/2022 09:33, Peter Robinson wrote: > >Why are they insecure? This is public open data, not banking data, > >where the data being downloaded is verifiable by the rpm signatures > >and signing keys. > > ISPs or anyone on the the same network can

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 19/10/2022 14:14, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: IOW, the impact of AES on server peformance will vary depending on CPU models, NIC models / network switches and whether other workloads are competing for CPU time. Admins need to decide what tradeoffs are important to them. In future, modern web

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 01:56:47PM +0200, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 19/10/2022 10:31, Neal Gompa wrote: > > HTTPS does not help with that. It's just a transport protocol. > > It will. All requests will be encrypted. ISP will only see server's > IP-address and its hostname (only if SNI

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 19/10/2022 10:31, Neal Gompa wrote: HTTPS does not help with that. It's just a transport protocol. It will. All requests will be encrypted. ISP will only see server's IP-address and its hostname (only if SNI is enabled). Not in any meaningful way, and in most cases HTTPS makes mirrors

Re: musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-19 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:25 AM Matthew Miller wrote: > > I _very much_ appreciate all the work you and the other Rust SIG folks > (Igor and Zbyszek in particular but I'm sure others as well!) have put into > packaging rust apps and crates and all of the systems around that. I'll respond

Amazon mirrors [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-19 Thread Matthew Miller
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 10:50:19AM +0200, Sandro wrote: > >We don't have a "main mirror" for that to work. > > So, this has been looked into already? It definitely sounds like it > could help in sparsely served parts of the world at a reasonable > cost. Yes. I think this is basically just a

musings on rust packaging [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-19 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 03:46:49PM +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > The dependency on LLVM is not even the worst issue in my eyes. LLVM is also > > used by other core projects, e.g., mesa, these days. > > > > The worst issue I see with Rust is the way libraries are "packaged", which > > just

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Sandro
On 19-10-2022 10:31, Neal Gompa wrote: On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 4:01 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: On 19/10/2022 09:48, Peter Robinson wrote: Sure but as mentioned it's public data, and the modification, and I covered that in my reply, would be picked up by the other mechanisms. They

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Neal Gompa
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 4:01 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 19/10/2022 09:48, Peter Robinson wrote: > > Sure but as mentioned it's public data, and the modification, and I > > covered that in my reply, would be picked up by the other mechanisms. > > They can collect a lot of sensitive

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 19/10/2022 09:48, Peter Robinson wrote: Sure but as mentioned it's public data, and the modification, and I covered that in my reply, would be picked up by the other mechanisms. They can collect a lot of sensitive information: your IP, Fedora version, packages version, etc. This can help

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Peter Robinson
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 8:40 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 19/10/2022 09:33, Peter Robinson wrote: > > Why are they insecure? This is public open data, not banking data, > > where the data being downloaded is verifiable by the rpm signatures > > and signing keys. > > ISPs or anyone on

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 19/10/2022 09:33, Peter Robinson wrote: Why are they insecure? This is public open data, not banking data, where the data being downloaded is verifiable by the rpm signatures and signing keys. ISPs or anyone on the the same network can view, intercept or even modify HTTP/rsync traffic.

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Peter Robinson
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 8:17 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 13/10/2022 15:46, Neal Gompa wrote: > > Also, a ton of Fedora mirrors still don't use HTTPS for various reasons. > > I think such insecure mirrors should be removed from metalink. Why are they insecure? This is public open

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-19 Thread Vitaly Zaitsev via devel
On 13/10/2022 15:46, Neal Gompa wrote: Also, a ton of Fedora mirrors still don't use HTTPS for various reasons. I think such insecure mirrors should be removed from metalink. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing

http[s] mirrors [was Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)]

2022-10-19 Thread Matthew Miller
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 03:57:41PM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Also, a ton of Fedora mirrors still don't use HTTPS for various reasons. > I would say that those mirrors ought to be kicked out of the mirror list > immediately. There are also a lot of rsync mirrors. I don't think any

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-14 Thread Neal H. Walfield
On Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:28:01 +0200, Simo Sorce wrote: > At this time, as far as I know, there is no OpenPGP work of any kind on > supporting PQC algorithms. The German BSI contracted MTG AG to design and implement PQC for OpenPGP. They presented their work at IETF 113, and at the OpenPGP email

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-14 Thread Simo Sorce
On Fri, 2022-10-14 at 10:14 +0300, Panu Matilainen wrote: > On 10/13/22 15:14, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 4:24 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: > > > > > > On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-14 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/13/22 15:14, Neal Gompa wrote: On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 4:24 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-14 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/13/22 17:31, Neal Gompa wrote: On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 9:58 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: Neal Gompa wrote: No, because when you do things like mirror repositories (especially for private mirrors), that signature is the only way to verify the integrity. HTTPS is only transport

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-14 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/13/22 19:35, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: On 10/13/22 04:23, Panu Matilainen wrote: On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread PGNet Dev
Let's Encrypt also supports the dns-01 challenge[1] that doesn't require any publicly available IPs. Using dns verification is required to obtain a Let's Encrypt wildcard certificate. While I tend to prefer using the dns-01 challenge approach when possible, not all DNS providers have made it

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Gary Buhrmaster
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 4:57 PM Maxwell G via devel wrote: > Let's Encrypt also supports the dns-01 challenge[1] that doesn't require > any publicly available IPs. Using dns verification is required to obtain a > Let's Encrypt wildcard certificate. While I tend to prefer using the dns-01

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Kevin P. Fleming
On 10/13/22 11:28, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: systemd (yes, systemd) is considering using Rust, though it has not yet started including it, and there is already Rust code in Mesa IIRC. Don't forget the Python 'cryptography' package... also a Rust user. It's here to stay, at least for the

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Maxwell G via devel
On Thu Oct 13, 2022 at 17:12 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > And using Let's Encrypt for private mirrors is sufficiently painful that I > > wouldn't recommend it. > > Set up a subdomain like vpn.example.com, point it to the public IP, then > configure the VPN's internal DNS to resolve

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Demi Marie Obenour
On 10/13/22 04:23, Panu Matilainen wrote: > On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: >>> >>> On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser > for dealing with

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Demi Marie Obenour
On 10/13/22 11:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Fabio Valentini wrote: >> Do you have suggestions for improving this situation? I think we're >> pretty close to doing the best we can with packaging Rust projects, >> given the current limitations of the language (i.e. the support for >> building

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 11:38 AM Demi Marie Obenour wrote: > > On 10/13/22 08:14, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 4:24 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: > >> > >> On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: > >>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen > >>> wrote: > > On

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Demi Marie Obenour
On 10/13/22 08:14, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 4:24 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: >> >> On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: >>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: >> For the last 20 years or so, RPM

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Gary Buhrmaster
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:13 PM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Neal Gompa wrote: > > I'm not going to get into this too much, but suffice to say, it's not > > universally accessible as a CA. > > I would very much be interested in those details though. As I recall, the current LE root

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Fabio Valentini wrote: > Do you have suggestions for improving this situation? I think we're > pretty close to doing the best we can with packaging Rust projects, > given the current limitations of the language (i.e. the support for > building "true shared Rust libraries" is still very limited and

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Neal Gompa wrote: > I'm not going to get into this too much, but suffice to say, it's not > universally accessible as a CA. I would very much be interested in those details though. I do not see anybody being excluded from Let's Encrypt, not even countries under US embargo (e.g., over 30

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 9:58 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Neal Gompa wrote: > > No, because when you do things like mirror repositories (especially > > for private mirrors), that signature is the only way to verify the > > integrity. HTTPS is only transport encryption from a particular >

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Neal Gompa wrote: > No, because when you do things like mirror repositories (especially > for private mirrors), that signature is the only way to verify the > integrity. HTTPS is only transport encryption from a particular > connection. HTTPS protects against a MITM on the connection introducing

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Fabio Valentini
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:31 PM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > The dependency on LLVM is not even the worst issue in my eyes. LLVM is also > used by other core projects, e.g., mesa, these days. > > The worst issue I see with Rust is the way libraries are "packaged", which > just implies

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 9:31 AM Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > > Neal Gompa wrote: > > This is also the underlying reason why Red Hat has resisted > > implementing signed repository metadata and enforcing it by default. > > Of course this is a bit of a catch-22 as well, as there's no > >

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
Neal Gompa wrote: > This is also the underlying reason why Red Hat has resisted > implementing signed repository metadata and enforcing it by default. > Of course this is a bit of a catch-22 as well, as there's no > motivation to find a solution because neither Fedora nor RHEL offer > signed

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 4:24 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: > > On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: > >> > >> On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser >

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/13/22 10:53, Neal Gompa wrote: On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous for its

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Neal Gompa
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:29 AM Panu Matilainen wrote: > > On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > >> For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser > >> for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous > >> for its limitations and flaws, and

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-13 Thread Panu Matilainen
On 10/13/22 07:18, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous for its limitations and flaws, and especially in recent years has proven a significant burden to RPM

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-12 Thread Kevin Kofler via devel
> For the last 20 years or so, RPM has used a home-grown OpenPGP parser > for dealing with keys and signatures. That parser is rather infamous > for its limitations and flaws, and especially in recent years has > proven a significant burden to RPM development. In order to improve > security and

Re: F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-10 Thread Clemens Lang
Hi Ben, Ben Cotton wrote: Within Fedora package set, this has no impact as everything is already using sufficiently strong crypto. Third party repositories / packages could be signed with insecure crypto, and those may require working around with --nosignature. However this incidentally

F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-10 Thread Ben Cotton
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RpmSequoia This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.

F38 proposal: RPM Sequoia (System-Wide Change proposal)

2022-10-10 Thread Ben Cotton
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/RpmSequoia This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.