jwm license change

[Ali Erdinc Koroglu]

jwm-2.4.2 in Fedora-rawhide changed its license from GPLv2 to MIT

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Re: jwm

[mastaiza]

many thanks
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Re: jwm

[mastaiza]

I understand you take the package
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Re: jwm

[Jon Ciesla]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:45 PM, Jon Ciesla <limburg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Igor Gnatenko <ignate...@redhat.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Become a maintainer!
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 7:23 PM, mastaiza <mastaiza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Lord no one has the desire to take jwm
>> > --
>> > devel mailing list
>> > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> >
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Igor Gnatenko
>> --
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>>
>
> I've picked it up and will update it. Co-maintainers welcome.
>
> --
> http://cecinestpasunefromage.wordpress.com/
> 
> in your fear, seek only peace
> in your fear, seek only love
>
> -d. bowie
>

It requires a re-review. . .
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1349118

I'll take one in return if you'd like.

-j

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Re: jwm

[Jon Ciesla]

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Igor Gnatenko <ignate...@redhat.com>
wrote:

> Become a maintainer!
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers
>
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 7:23 PM, mastaiza <mastaiza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Lord no one has the desire to take jwm
> > --
> > devel mailing list
> > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>
>
>
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I've picked it up and will update it. Co-maintainers welcome.

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Re: jwm

[Igor Gnatenko]

Become a maintainer!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join_the_package_collection_maintainers

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 7:23 PM, mastaiza <mastaiza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lord no one has the desire to take jwm
> --
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> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org



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jwm

[mastaiza]

Lord no one has the desire to take jwm
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Re: jwm

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 5:41 PM, Przemek Klosowski
 wrote:
> On 06/01/2016 05:34 PM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:
>
> On 06/01/2016 06:21 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
>
> So the answer to your question is that the papers say they work 40 hours
> per week, but in reality they work more. The employment law doesn't
> prescribe the actual number of hours worked by this class of employees,
> and the employer can set the work product expectations as they see fit.
>
>
>
> So employers who pay extra hours to exempt workers do so without any legal
> obligations?
>
> I never heard of such situation. Normally, exempt workers might get a bonus
> payout at the end of the year, or receive some award. In some industries
> (e.g. banking, or sales) the bonus might be much bigger than the salary, but
> that's probably not very common in engineering/technology fields.

It's quite rare. I've been in the field more than 25 years, and if you
count off-hours research and work related research, 60 hours is not
that unusual. For free software and open source workers, there's also
a lot of time on work projects that goes to our hobbies and interests,
such as free software projects, that work is paying us for but we
provide for the community as a whole, not just for our local
workplace.
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Re: jwm

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 06/01/2016 05:34 PM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 06/01/2016 06:21 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:

So the answer to your question is that the papers say they work 40 hours
per week, but in reality they work more. The employment law doesn't
prescribe the actual number of hours worked by this class of employees,
and the employer can set the work product expectations as they see fit.




So employers who pay extra hours to exempt workers do so without any 
legal obligations? 
I never heard of such situation. Normally, exempt workers might get a 
bonus payout at the end of the year, or receive some award. In some 
industries (e.g. banking, or sales) the bonus might be much bigger than 
the salary, but that's probably not very common in 
engineering/technology fields.
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Re: jwm

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

On 06/01/2016 06:21 PM, Przemek Klosowski wrote:

So the answer to your question is that the papers say they work 40 hours
per week, but in reality they work more. The employment law doesn't
prescribe the actual number of hours worked by this class of employees,
and the employer can set the work product expectations as they see fit.




So employers who pay extra hours to exempt workers do so without any 
legal obligations?

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Re: jwm

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 05/31/2016 01:31 PM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:


I see you write from an @redhat.com address. Are you saying that all 
US-based RedHat developers get 45 hour work weeks or less? I'm talking 
about what the papers say, not the actual amount of work. 
I am not a labor lawyer so this is just my opinion on the legal status, 
but basically US has two categories of workers: exempt and non-exempt. 
The 'exemption' is from the labor rules that require paying overtime 
wages (1.5x the regular rate) for hours above 40hr/week. This is done to 
protect low-wage, mostly blue-collar workers who are 'non-exempt', i.e. 
must be paid overtime. Recently there was a policy change that moved the 
boundary between the categories (from $455/week to $913/week)


Most tech workers are in the 'exempt', or salaried category. I think the 
legal theory is that they are required to turn in a professional work 
product, which is supposed to take 40 hr/week, but if it takes more then 
that's them breaks.


So the answer to your question is that the papers say they work 40 hours 
per week, but in reality they work more. The employment law doesn't 
prescribe the actual number of hours worked by this class of employees, 
and the employer can set the work product expectations as they see fit.
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Re: jwm

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 31 May 2016 at 12:39, Michael Catanzaro  wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>> They usually have a 60 hour a week job
>
> I hope this isn't accurate...?


I don't know. I was using an old data point where people in the US
software industry once you accounted for all 'unpaid' time: commute,
lunch, after hour hacking on a problem, extra hours during crunch time
and then averaging the hours. That came out for 70 hours a week with
commuting and 60 hours a week if you dropped that for Microsoft and
similar industry giants. Startups were up to 2x that. [They aren't
paid for more than 40 hours a week. Everything else is made up with
possible future stock sales and bonuses.] The social impacts and
differences between US capitalism and everywhere else are outside the
scope of this list/conversation.

In the end, does it matter if it was true or hyperbole? Even if
everyone at  Red Hat only worked 40 hours a week.. other than the N
people directly working on it.. every one else would still be
volunteering their time on Fedora outside of those work hours just as
much as people who are working at a University or IBM or Microsoft.
And whether it is that they worked 40 hours a week or 60 hours.. those
extra hours are just as precious to them as they are for the
University/IBM or Microsoft person


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Re: jwm

[Rich Megginson]

On 05/31/2016 11:56 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote:

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:31:04 PM CDT Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 05/31/2016 01:59 PM, Rich Megginson wrote:

On 05/31/2016 10:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 05/31/2016 01:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

They usually have a 60 hour a week job

I hope this isn't accurate...?

I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH
programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time
means 40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being
called full time in some job postings.

It depends primarily on what country you live in.  In the US, for
salaried (as opposed to hourly) programmers, the pay is based off of a
45 hour work week e.g. 8am - 5pm Monday through Friday, lunch included
(i.e. you are paid to eat lunch).  Of course, this is strictly for
accounting purposes - hardly any salaried programmers work these hours,
and most programmers would say "well, I'm more or less working all the
time - I get great ideas for solving problems while I'm sleeping and
dreaming, in the shower, driving to work, on the bus, etc.", and those
hours aren't strictly accounted for.

  From experience, in Brazil it would either be 40 (the same you wrote,
but lunch is not paid for) or 44 (+ 4 hours in Saturday mornings).

I've worked on hourly rates, and unless you get a "change the background
color to black and text to red" task you are also going to do a
substantial amount of work when you are not "working", and these hours
are also not paid for.

I think that Michael and I were wondering whether RH programmers were
getting 60 paid hours, not thinking about work at least 60 hours per
week. This would mean an average of 12 "office" hours (supposing they do
not work on weekends) per day. Which seems pretty aggressive to most
professionals I've come across if they are going to sit through that in
an supervised office.

I see you write from an @redhat.com address. Are you saying that all
US-based RedHat developers get 45 hour work weeks or less? I'm talking
about what the papers say, not the actual amount of work.
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in the US it is 40 hours, you are not paid for your lunch hour.


Dennis is correct, I stand corrected.



Dennis


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Re: jwm

[Dennis Gilmore]

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:31:04 PM CDT Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:
> On 05/31/2016 01:59 PM, Rich Megginson wrote:
> > On 05/31/2016 10:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:
> >> On 05/31/2016 01:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
>  They usually have a 60 hour a week job
> >>> 
> >>> I hope this isn't accurate...?
> >> 
> >> I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH
> >> programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time
> >> means 40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being
> >> called full time in some job postings.
> > 
> > It depends primarily on what country you live in.  In the US, for
> > salaried (as opposed to hourly) programmers, the pay is based off of a
> > 45 hour work week e.g. 8am - 5pm Monday through Friday, lunch included
> > (i.e. you are paid to eat lunch).  Of course, this is strictly for
> > accounting purposes - hardly any salaried programmers work these hours,
> > and most programmers would say "well, I'm more or less working all the
> > time - I get great ideas for solving problems while I'm sleeping and
> > dreaming, in the shower, driving to work, on the bus, etc.", and those
> > hours aren't strictly accounted for.
> 
>  From experience, in Brazil it would either be 40 (the same you wrote,
> but lunch is not paid for) or 44 (+ 4 hours in Saturday mornings).
> 
> I've worked on hourly rates, and unless you get a "change the background
> color to black and text to red" task you are also going to do a
> substantial amount of work when you are not "working", and these hours
> are also not paid for.
> 
> I think that Michael and I were wondering whether RH programmers were
> getting 60 paid hours, not thinking about work at least 60 hours per
> week. This would mean an average of 12 "office" hours (supposing they do
> not work on weekends) per day. Which seems pretty aggressive to most
> professionals I've come across if they are going to sit through that in
> an supervised office.
> 
> I see you write from an @redhat.com address. Are you saying that all
> US-based RedHat developers get 45 hour work weeks or less? I'm talking
> about what the papers say, not the actual amount of work.
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in the US it is 40 hours, you are not paid for your lunch hour.

Dennis

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Re: jwm

[Rich Megginson]

On 05/31/2016 11:31 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 05/31/2016 01:59 PM, Rich Megginson wrote:

On 05/31/2016 10:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 05/31/2016 01:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

They usually have a 60 hour a week job


I hope this isn't accurate...?



I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH
programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time
means 40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being
called full time in some job postings.


It depends primarily on what country you live in.  In the US, for
salaried (as opposed to hourly) programmers, the pay is based off of a
45 hour work week e.g. 8am - 5pm Monday through Friday, lunch included
(i.e. you are paid to eat lunch).  Of course, this is strictly for
accounting purposes - hardly any salaried programmers work these hours,
and most programmers would say "well, I'm more or less working all the
time - I get great ideas for solving problems while I'm sleeping and
dreaming, in the shower, driving to work, on the bus, etc.", and those
hours aren't strictly accounted for.



From experience, in Brazil it would either be 40 (the same you wrote, 
but lunch is not paid for) or 44 (+ 4 hours in Saturday mornings).


I've worked on hourly rates, and unless you get a "change the 
background color to black and text to red" task you are also going to 
do a substantial amount of work when you are not "working", and these 
hours are also not paid for.


I think that Michael and I were wondering whether RH programmers were 
getting 60 paid hours, not thinking about work at least 60 hours per week.



This would mean an average of 12 "office" hours (supposing they do not 
work on weekends) per day. Which seems pretty aggressive to most 
professionals I've come across if they are going to sit through that 
in an supervised office.


I see you write from an @redhat.com address. Are you saying that all 
US-based RedHat developers get 45 hour work weeks or less?I'm talking 
about what the papers say, not the actual amount of work.


AFAIK the accounting system accounts for salaried developers working 45 
hours per week.



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Re: jwm

[James Hogarth]

On 31 May 2016 18:02, "Major Hayden"  wrote:
>
> On 05/31/2016 11:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:
> > I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH
programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time means
40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being called full
time in some job postings.
>
> I can't speak for folks at Red Hat, but at many businesses there's often
a difference between the "expected" and "actual" hours worked per week,
depending on what projects are being worked and their priority. :)
>

And don't forget to account for commuting time... although my work hours
are ~40 hours a week there's a little over an hour each way as well.
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Re: jwm

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

On 05/31/2016 01:59 PM, Rich Megginson wrote:

On 05/31/2016 10:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 05/31/2016 01:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

They usually have a 60 hour a week job


I hope this isn't accurate...?



I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH
programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time
means 40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being
called full time in some job postings.


It depends primarily on what country you live in.  In the US, for
salaried (as opposed to hourly) programmers, the pay is based off of a
45 hour work week e.g. 8am - 5pm Monday through Friday, lunch included
(i.e. you are paid to eat lunch).  Of course, this is strictly for
accounting purposes - hardly any salaried programmers work these hours,
and most programmers would say "well, I'm more or less working all the
time - I get great ideas for solving problems while I'm sleeping and
dreaming, in the shower, driving to work, on the bus, etc.", and those
hours aren't strictly accounted for.



From experience, in Brazil it would either be 40 (the same you wrote, 
but lunch is not paid for) or 44 (+ 4 hours in Saturday mornings).


I've worked on hourly rates, and unless you get a "change the background 
color to black and text to red" task you are also going to do a 
substantial amount of work when you are not "working", and these hours 
are also not paid for.


I think that Michael and I were wondering whether RH programmers were 
getting 60 paid hours, not thinking about work at least 60 hours per 
week. This would mean an average of 12 "office" hours (supposing they do 
not work on weekends) per day. Which seems pretty aggressive to most 
professionals I've come across if they are going to sit through that in 
an supervised office.


I see you write from an @redhat.com address. Are you saying that all 
US-based RedHat developers get 45 hour work weeks or less? I'm talking 
about what the papers say, not the actual amount of work.

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Re: jwm

[Major Hayden]

On 05/31/2016 11:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:
> I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH 
> programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time means 40 
> to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being called full time 
> in some job postings.

I can't speak for folks at Red Hat, but at many businesses there's often a 
difference between the "expected" and "actual" hours worked per week, depending 
on what projects are being worked and their priority. :)

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Re: jwm

[Rich Megginson]

On 05/31/2016 10:42 AM, Bernardo Sulzbach wrote:

On 05/31/2016 01:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

They usually have a 60 hour a week job


I hope this isn't accurate...?



I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH 
programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time 
means 40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being 
called full time in some job postings.


It depends primarily on what country you live in.  In the US, for 
salaried (as opposed to hourly) programmers, the pay is based off of a 
45 hour work week e.g. 8am - 5pm Monday through Friday, lunch included 
(i.e. you are paid to eat lunch).  Of course, this is strictly for 
accounting purposes - hardly any salaried programmers work these hours, 
and most programmers would say "well, I'm more or less working all the 
time - I get great ideas for solving problems while I'm sleeping and 
dreaming, in the shower, driving to work, on the bus, etc.", and those 
hours aren't strictly accounted for.



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Re: jwm

[Bernardo Sulzbach]

On 05/31/2016 01:39 PM, Michael Catanzaro wrote:

On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:

They usually have a 60 hour a week job


I hope this isn't accurate...?



I didn't write about it myself, but was left wondering anyways. Do RH 
programmers usually work 60 hours per week? "On average", full time 
means 40 to 44 hours around the world. I've even seen 30 hours being 
called full time in some job postings.

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Re: jwm

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Sun, 2016-05-29 at 17:17 -0400, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> They usually have a 60 hour a week job

I hope this isn't accurate...?
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Re: jwm

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 29 May 2016 at 17:05, mastaiza  wrote:
> and I think that at least half of the works on redhat
>

Just because someone is paid by Red Hat does not mean they are paid to
work on Fedora. They usually have a 60 hour a week job doing some
other thing on some other product. Only around 20 people are paid to
work on Fedora directly. Everyone else is volunteering when they have
time with the energy they have. Red Hat also sees no direct revenue
from Fedora so this is mainly Research and Development work.

> faster to find a new distro

That is always an option. Ubuntu may be more aimed at the type of
usecase you are looking for. SuSE may be a better community fit. Arch
may be the OS which moves at the speed you want.

That is the beauty of many distributions... if you are not happy, it
is very easy to find the distribution which meets your needs better.
So please go find the distribution and community that meets your needs
better.


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Re: jwm

[mastaiza]

and I think that at least half of the works on redhat

faster to find a new distro
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Re: jwm

[James Hogarth]

On 29 May 2016 21:02, "mastaiza"  wrote:
>
>
> but what about the people who used this window Manager . I think its not
respectful to the users
> --

All packagers in Fedora ultimately are volunteers and we don't get too tell
people they have maintain any given package.

Your options are find an existing packager willing to maintain this, follow
the process to become a packager yourself and maintain this, do builds
yourself in COPR or for your personal use.
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Re: jwm

[mastaiza]

but what about the people who used this window Manager . I think its not 
respectful to the users
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Re: jwm

[Alexander Ploumistos]

I'm guessing you are subscribed to this mailing list. Every now and
then you get messages with subject lines like "Orphaned packages in
rawhide". You could have seen it quite some time ago.

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/219062
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Re: jwm

[mastaiza]

it is necessary in advance to warn about the deletion . or do I have to guess 
about this myself
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Re: jwm

[gil]

Il 29/05/2016 19:18, mastaiza ha scritto:

Hi . Started to update one of the computers on which stands jwm and surprise 
he's not in the fedora repository 24 .

Hi,
It was retired 2016/05/19, because it was orphaned for
more than six weeks.
Regards
.g

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Re: jwm

[mastaiza]

your I should follow packet . I just want to enjoy and not to think what else 
is there to remove in the new issue
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Re: jwm

[Alexander Ploumistos]

It was orphaned in late February.
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/package/rpms/jwm/
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jwm

[mastaiza]

Hi . Started to update one of the computers on which stands jwm and surprise 
he's not in the fedora repository 24 .
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