The Question of Revisiting or Revising the Fluctuon Model I thank Drs. Kirby and Brenner for re-introducing Conrad’s Fluctuon model. Although I’ve never directly incorporated Conrad’s ideas into my own research involving natural and artificial intelligences, I believe they collectively continue to offer a framework useful for probing and elaborating details of information at all levels of description. That said, I wonder if it isn’t now appropriate to revise rather than simply revisit the Fluctuon model? Obviously one must first appraise the current strengths of any model before revising it, but I echo Dr. Brenner’s hope that FISers will attempt to disentangle the Fluctuon model’s merits/failings during this discussion session with the goal of improving the model. The current discussion centered on distinguishing the it/bit aspects of the model are germane to my position on the role of physics and information in biology. I find, perhaps in my ignorance, that the core of Conrad’s concepts (cf. 1) simultaneously extends David Bohm’s earlier popular works (e.g., 2) as well as parallels, in some content and timing of publication, the key developments in extradimensional physics over the past 40-or-so years. Modern Kaluza-Klein-type theories, for example, may be applied to mesoscopic fluids in such a way to evoke Conrad’s insights on the influence of unmanifest particles on manifest ones. As other scientists have done, I’ve given considerable thought to the topic of microphysical influences on semiclassical biology over the past 20 years, so that it now plays a dominant role in my research on cellular and organism decision making and additional cognitive(-like) processes (cf. 3). Kaluza-Klein-type theories locally embed or unify different combinations of the known physical forces of gravitation, electromagnetism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces in a world manifold greater than four dimensions, thus creating symmetric relationships between the different forces and their properties. Some modern Kaluza-Klein-type theories, such as Induced Matter (IM) and 5-Brane theories, improve the concept of earlier Kaluza-Klein theories by setting 5D field equations in terms of a flat Ricci tensor that neither restricts the topology of the fifth dimension nor treats fields separately from their 4D source matter. In this rich framework of Riemannian geometry, nonradiation-like matter or energy density can manifest itself in the fifth dimension as uncharged or charged rest mass of differing coordinates, with a timelike fifth force possibly revealed as time variations in 5D-dependent 4D mass (4). Notably, the fifth force, not found in Einstein relativity, emerges from the canonical metric as a choice of coordinate or gauge and is related to motion in the fifth dimension as well as charge/mass ratio, where 4D charge becomes 5D momentum (4). By applying canonical IM theory, one can then mathematically project the 4D spacetime structure of biocurrents (e.g., fire-diffuse-fire calcium biocurrents that mediate primitive intelligent behaviors in microbes), macromolecules (e.g. transmembrane receptor proteins, nucleotide sequences, etc.), or other biosubstrate onto a 5D coordinate system. This sort of transform (also valid for high-energy particle and cosmological physics) equates physicochemical computations that covary with intelligent behaviors and other biological processes with the action of mass and its energy equivalents. Canonical IM theory, in particular, offers tremendous scale invariant explanatory power since Goedel-type causal anomalies, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, and additional paradoxes often employed to describe the emergent properties of nervous tissue and other excitable biological or nonbiological media either become vanishing artifacts of coordinate selection or deterministic laws in 5D physics (cf. 4). Computational complexities, like those described by Conrad, might be accounted for in terms of the 5D motion of mesoscopic particle mass and its relationship to 4D time-energy uncertainty, 4D spacetime curvature, and further lower dimension effects. Using IM theory also provides an exceptional starting point for later considerations on physical relationships between the emergent properties of various excitable media, nonsymmetric Riemannian spaces, torsion spaces, and other higher energy manifolds beyond five dimensions. Thus, IM theory is consistent with the Machian, relativistic, and quantum nature of the Fluctuon model, while also providing an intermediary energy framework to either explore lower dimensional Holographic or higher dimensional Supersymmetical physical and informational descriptions of biology not explicitly addressed by the Fluctuon model. In view of these advantages of IM theory, how would FISers remodel the Fluctuon model to embrace trends in modern physics? And, if the Fluctuon model is more informational than materialistic in principle, as Dr. Salthe and others suggest, then shouldn’t the gap between information and material worlds be closed to produce a more flexible, universal model akin to IM theory capable of making testable predictions at both reduced informational and extended thermodynamic degrees of freedom? It seems to me that the greatest advances in our understanding of information will come from models that can effectively handle concepts from purely informational (or mathematically idealistic) and physical perspectives – a goal that Conrad seems to have aspired to realize with his incomplete efforts. Kevin B. Clark REFERENCES 1. Conrad, M. (1996). Percolation and Collapse of Quantum Parallelism: A Model of Qualia and Choice. In S.R. Hameroff, A.W. Kaszniak & A.C. Scott (Eds.), Toward a Science of Consciousness. Cambridge: The MIT Press. 2. Bohm, D. (1980). Wholeness and the Implicate Order. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul. 3. Primitive Microbial Intelligences Expressed as Extended Computational Objects in Modern Kaluza-Klein Metric. K.B. Clark (Principal Investigator) & S.E. Krahl (Principal Investigator of Record). White Paper submitted to Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA-BAA 07-68, Math Challenge 5), Fall 2008. 4. Wesson, P.S. (1999). Space-Time-Matter. Singapore: World Scientific.
________________________________ From: "fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es" <fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es> To: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Sat, September 25, 2010 3:28:22 AM Subject: fis Digest, Vol 541, Issue 13 Send fis mailing list submissions to fis@listas.unizar.es To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es You can reach the person managing the list at fis-ow...@listas.unizar.es When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of fis digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Revisiting the Fluctuon Model (Loet Leydesdorff) 2. Re: Revisiting the Fluctuon Model (Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:57:32 +0200 From: "Loet Leydesdorff" <l...@leydesdorff.net> Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model To: "'Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic'" <gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se>, "'Joseph Brenner'" <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>, "'Stanley N Salthe'" <ssal...@binghamton.edu>, <fis@listas.unizar.es> Message-ID: <004e01cb5c98$15020770$3f0616...@leydesdorff.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an informational structure. The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a system of reference. In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type information measures only variation/uncertainty. Best wishes, Loet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://webmail.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20100925/7b25285d/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:28:09 +0200 From: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se> Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model To: "raf...@capurro.de" <raf...@capurro.de> Cc: "fis@listas.unizar.es" <fis@listas.unizar.es> Message-ID: <5663f8a6694a73468c89a06aae92b2b603e3050b1...@mbxcluster.mdh.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dear Rafael, Ø Otherwise bits turns into digital metaphysics Not necessarily if we take that dual nature seriously. They are both waves and particles. I have also written in that sense several times, among others in http://mdh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:120541/FULLTEXT01 Dear Loet, Ø The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a system of reference. In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type information measures only variation/uncertainty. I agree with you. And complementary part "bit" comes from its dynamics. Best, Gordana Best wishes, Gordana From: Rafael Capurro [mailto:raf...@capurro.de] Sent: den 25 september 2010 11:55 To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic Cc: Loet Leydesdorff; 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model dear Gordana just because the bit-view of reality one possible view is. Otherwise bits turns into digital metaphysics. Floridi: he is contradictory. He says/said that the infosphere is not the cybetspace, then yes, then no... Then he says that forms are on a "higher level of abstraction" that bit-forms... which is what Plato would say and said (but much better than Floridi), the digital infosphere being only one possibility of forms, then he says... best Rafael Dear all, Regarding the very interesting discussion of "it" from "bit" and vice versa. Usually each level of information processing (semantic, algorithmic, implementational) presupposes some "it" in which "bit" is implemented. In computing, recursions must have a bottom. Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, "it" and "bit" cannot be distinguished at all? They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an informational structure. Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual wave-particle nature. Why cannot they be "it-bit" as well? Best, Gordana From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es> [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff Sent: den 25 september 2010 10:48 To: 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe'; fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model Dear Joe, Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", that is, energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is anti-realist, this is certainly not what I would consider Conrad's theory to be. Stan comes to the same conclusion, that fluctuons are its, but this suggests to him a non-materialist conception of information. This is a first place where something like another logic is needed that can incorporate the material-energetic and non-material aspects of information. Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept of information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, the Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality. One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with the biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference which makes a difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a system which can provide meaning to the information. I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The specification in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as different from res extensa). All of physics also has this epistemological status. All other science, too, but sometimes positivism is ideologically prevailing. Best wishes, Loet ________________________________ Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 l...@leydesdorff.net <mailto:l...@leydesdorff.net> ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org) Director, Steinbeis-Transfer-Institute Information Ethics (STI-IE), Karlsruhe, Germany (http://sti-ie.de) Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of Information Studies, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA President, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (http://icie.zkm.de) Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (http://www.i-r-i-e.net) Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de<mailto:raf...@capurro.de> Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21) Homepage: www.capurro.de<http://www.capurro.de> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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