Re: Wiki Landing Page

[John Ralls]

> On May 27, 2017, at 9:49 PM, John Ralls  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 27, 2017, at 9:25 PM, Adrien Monteleone  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks, I’ll have to try installing again. Maybe something is amiss with the 
>> bundle I downloaded. I’m still getting no response from those menu entries. 
>> And I don’t see any help buttons in any window anywhere. Not sure where 
>> those ‘Context help buttons’ are supposed to be.
> 
> Seems pretty unlikely that a download error could lose the documentation and 
> still have a valid signature. More likely your default browser is rejecting 
> the page load signal for some reason. Eh, what locale do you use? It occurs 
> to me that I might have messed up so that it works only

Oops, got distracted and hit send before I was finished. I might have messed up 
so that it works only if your locale matches one of the existing translations, 
English, German, Italian, and Japanese. I see that I forgot to add the new 
Portuguese docs to the bundle.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: Wiki Landing Page

[Adrien Monteleone]

I see some buttons now in the business features. But that’s all. Those don’t 
work either.

> On May 27, 2017, at 11:25 PM, Adrien Monteleone  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, I’ll have to try installing again. Maybe something is amiss with the 
> bundle I downloaded. I’m still getting no response from those menu entries. 
> And I don’t see any help buttons in any window anywhere. Not sure where those 
> ‘Context help buttons’ are supposed to be.
> 
> 
>> On May 27, 2017, at 11:12 PM, John Ralls  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 27, 2017, at 9:02 PM, Adrien Monteleone 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> FYI, I don’t believe the help or the guide comes with the Mac bundle 
>>> either. I tried the links in the help menu for both and nothing happened. I 
>>> should think if they aren’t installed, they should at least point to the 
>>> appropriate locations on the web. (I think there is already a bug for this)
>>> 
>> 
>> Nope, they're included in the bundle and open in your default browser. 
>> Context help buttons even open the right page of Help.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
> 

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Re: Wiki Landing Page

[John Ralls]

> On May 27, 2017, at 9:02 PM, Adrien Monteleone  
> wrote:
> 
> FYI, I don’t believe the help or the guide comes with the Mac bundle either. 
> I tried the links in the help menu for both and nothing happened. I should 
> think if they aren’t installed, they should at least point to the appropriate 
> locations on the web. (I think there is already a bug for this)
> 

Nope, they're included in the bundle and open in your default browser. Context 
help buttons even open the right page of Help.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: Wiki Landing Page

[David T. via gnucash-devel]

Don, 
Perhaps it is not clear, but my proposed section 1 would include all the 
different types of documentation. For example,  1.3 would link to the FAQ. 
People here would get directly to each of these areas from this page. 
David

 
 
  On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 5:03, doncram wrote:   Thanks for 
your reply to me.  Right, I have to agree that what is on the main page needs 
to be simple, and can't link to multiple versions of the Help manual or of the 
Tutorial and Concepts Guide.  A different page about documentation in the Wiki 
should list all the separate versions, however, to inform any of us trying to 
develop them, or trying to understand why one user says they do see or don't 
see something odd.  Your point that "for ​Linux users, the docs are not 
included in the base package, but must be installed separately" should be 
stated, for example.
However, I still think the main page should not basically say "for other 
documentation, see this documentation page at the website" when that target 
only lists the Help manual and the Tutorial and Concepts Guide and gives no 
other documentation, and then goes off into non-documentation like email lists 
and IRC.  And I do think the FAQ on the Wiki, at least, if not any searchable 
interface to the email archives, should be considered part of documentation and 
mentioned in the main page.

Again, I think if you and I could edit a "sandbox" version of the mainpage, we 
could sort all this out, and anyone could review to see that it all works, and 
then an administrator could easily copy it over to the mainpage.  I meant to 
ask anyone to please create such a sandbox page so we could do that, by my 
previous email reply (which i think went to just you, until i just forwarded a 
new copy to gnucash-dev.
Could someone please open a page at 
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox  for me and David T. to edit at.  
:)  I am not allowed to create a new page.  Or I can wait a few more days and 
see whether I automatically get rights to create new wiki pages, which I was 
told may happen after being emailconfirmed for a week.
Cheers, --Don

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 10:22 PM, David T.  wrote:



On May 27, 2017, at 12:41 AM, doncram  wrote:
I think the suggested proposed page is good.  I do have a few changes to the 
proposed version to suggest, including about clarifying what documentation is 
available, and I'd like for you and me and anyone else to be able to edit, in 
the Wiki, a proposed new version of the main Wiki page.
It's not clear which exact links you mean where you have written "{link}" in a 
few places.  I'd like to be more clear about those, and their labelling.  
Specifically, I would not recommend linking to the "Documentation" page at the 
website, which mixes topic of documentation with support, and which omits some 
documentation.  I have no idea how to change the website, but let's try to make 
the main Wiki page comprehensive and accurate about the Documentation 
available. 

Don,
The Help link and the Tutorial link would go directly to those docs (e.g. 
http://www.gnucash.org/ viewdoc.phtml?doc=help & http: 
//www.gnucash.org/viewdoc. phtml?doc=guide), since they are the officially 
released materials. The last line of that section would link to 
http://www.gnucash.org/ docs.phtml.
My intention in the Documentation section here is not to include every 
Documentation permutation of every possibility that might exist; my goal is to 
provide the best means of getting good information about GnuCash. Linking to 
the official, current release documentation serves that purpose. I feel that 
the tendency to be exhaustive results in so much information that the new user 
is overwhelmed—as, for example your own experience with the Documentation 
Update Instructions page. Having four entries each for the Help and the Guide 
IMO is overkill. I would rather have a shorter list that addresses most 
immediate needs, but points to the other options that are available, for those 
who need that as well. Section 1.1 in my example does exactly that.
I’m not sure what you mean about the Documentation page on the GnuCash website 
omitting things. As I understand it, there are exactly two official pieces of 
documentation: the Help Manual, and the Tutorial and Concepts Guide. Both of 
these are available at the Documentation page on the main website. What is 
missing?
Specific comments on your edits:1)​​ For Linux users, I believe, the docs are 
not included in the base package, but must be installed separately. Perhaps 
different wording could be found.2) Development copies of the docs are 
available from www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml 3) Adding the Guide glossary to my 
mind is duplicative; we already referred the user to the Guide; they can see 
the Glossary there. Moreover, the Wiki glossary refers to the Guide glossary at 
the beginning of the page.4) We could quibble over whether the mailing lists 

Re: Wiki Landing Page

[doncram]

Thanks for your reply to me.  Right, I have to agree that what is on the
main page needs to be simple, and can't link to multiple versions of the
Help manual or of the Tutorial and Concepts Guide.  A different page about
documentation in the Wiki should list all the separate versions, however,
to inform any of us trying to develop them, or trying to understand why one
user says they do see or don't see something odd.  Your point that "for
​
Linux users, the docs are not included in the base package, but must be
installed separately" should be stated, for example.

However, I still think the main page should not basically say "for other
documentation, see this documentation page at the website" when that target
only lists the Help manual and the Tutorial and Concepts Guide and gives no
other documentation, and then goes off into non-documentation like email
lists and IRC.  And I do think the FAQ on the Wiki, at least, if not any
searchable interface to the email archives, should be considered part of
documentation and mentioned in the main page.

Again, I think if you and I could edit a "sandbox" version of the mainpage,
we could sort all this out, and anyone could review to see that it all
works, and then an administrator could easily copy it over to the
mainpage.  I meant to ask anyone to please create such a sandbox page so we
could do that, by my previous email reply (which i think went to just you,
until i just forwarded a new copy to gnucash-dev.

Could someone please open a page at
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox  for me and David T. to edit
at.  :)  I am not allowed to create a new page.  Or I can wait a few more
days and see whether I automatically get rights to create new wiki pages,
which I was told may happen after being emailconfirmed for a week.

Cheers, --Don


On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 10:22 PM, David T.  wrote:

>
> On May 27, 2017, at 12:41 AM, doncram  wrote:
>
> I think the suggested proposed page is good.  I do have a few changes to
> the proposed version to suggest, including about clarifying what
> documentation is available, and I'd like for you and me and anyone else to
> be able to edit, in the Wiki, a proposed new version of the main Wiki page.
>
> It's not clear which exact links you mean where you have written "{link}"
> in a few places.  I'd like to be more clear about those, and their
> labelling.  Specifically, I would not recommend linking to the
> "Documentation" page at the website, which mixes topic of documentation
> with support, and which omits some documentation.  I have no idea how to
> change the website, but let's try to make the main Wiki page comprehensive
> and accurate about the Documentation available.
>
>
> Don,
>
> The Help link and the Tutorial link would go directly to those docs (e.g.
> http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?doc=help & http:
> //www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?doc=guide), since they are the officially
> released materials. The last line of that section would link to
> http://www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml.
>
> My intention in the Documentation section here is not to include every
> Documentation permutation of every possibility that might exist; my goal is
> to provide the best means of getting good information about GnuCash.
> Linking to the official, current release documentation serves that purpose.
> I feel that the tendency to be exhaustive results in so much information
> that the new user is overwhelmed—as, for example your own experience with
> the Documentation Update Instructions page. Having four entries each for
> the Help and the Guide IMO is overkill. I would rather have a shorter list
> that addresses most immediate needs, but points to the other options that
> are available, for those who need that as well. Section 1.1 in my example
> does exactly that.
>
> I’m not sure what you mean about the Documentation page on the GnuCash
> website omitting things. As I understand it, there are exactly two official
> pieces of documentation: the Help Manual, and the Tutorial and Concepts
> Guide. Both of these are available at the Documentation page on the main
> website. What is missing?
>
> Specific comments on your edits:
> 1)
> ​​
> For Linux users, I believe, the docs are not included in the base package,
> but must be installed separately. Perhaps different wording could be found.
> 2) Development copies of the docs are available from
> www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml
> 3) Adding the Guide glossary to my mind is duplicative; we already
> referred the user to the Guide; they can see the Glossary there. Moreover,
> the Wiki glossary refers to the Guide glossary at the beginning of the page.
> 4) We could quibble over whether the mailing lists constitute
> documentation or not. I felt the lists were more support-oriented than
> documentation oriented, although I conceded that many questions on the list
> are answered by suggesting the user search the list achives.
> 5) There is no GnuCash-user 

Fwd: Wiki Landing Page

[doncram]

I think i did hit "reply-to-all", but I think this still didn't go to
anyone besides David T, so here is my reply again:
--Don
-- Forwarded message --
From: doncram 
Date: Fri, May 26, 2017 at 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Wiki Landing Page
To: "David T." 
Cc: "David T. via gnucash-devel" 


I think the suggested proposed page is good.  I do have a few changes to
the proposed version to suggest, including about clarifying what
documentation is available, and I'd like for you and me and anyone else to
be able to edit, in the Wiki, a proposed new version of the main Wiki page.

It's not clear which exact links you mean where you have written "{link}"
in a few places.  I'd like to be more clear about those, and their
labelling.  Specifically, I would not recommend linking to the
"Documentation" page at the website, which mixes topic of documentation
with support, and which omits some documentation.  I have no idea how to
change the website, but let's try to make the main Wiki page comprehensive
and accurate about the Documentation available.

Note that Documentation available includes:
   Help manual (available within your downloaded GnuCash software, in
whatever version that is)
   Help manual ( http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?doc=help  , with
version not identified )
   Help manual version 2.6 (specifically available somewhere within the
website )
   Help manual version latest version in progress (available within
GnuCash, if you download the working, non-stable version of GnuCash?  Not
available online? Or available somewhere within
http://code.gnucash.org/docs/ ?)
   Tutorial and Concepts Guide (available within your downloaded GnuCash
software, in whatever version that is)
   Tutorial and Concepts Guide ( http://www.gnucash.org/
viewdoc.phtml?doc=guide , with version not identified )
   Tutorial and Concepts Guide version 2.6 (specifically available within
the website, somewhere)
   Tutorial and Concepts Guide latest version in progress (available within
GnuCash, if you download the working, non-stable version of GnuCash?  Not
available online?  Or available somewhere within
http://code.gnucash.org/docs/ ?)
   Glossary, within the Tutorial and Concepts Guide
   Glossary at the Wiki, which states that it may have more (
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Glossary )
   FAQ at the Wiki
   Gnucash-user email list archive by month from July 2000 (
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/ )
   Gnucash-user search interface (available where?)
Note "Support" available is different, and includes the email lists and IRC
chat.

Could someone please create a Wiki subpage at Talk:GnuCash/sandbox (i.e.
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Talk:GnuCash/sandbox) where David T. and I and
anyone else could edit the proposal?  I suggest calling it "sandbox" in
parallel to how, in Wikipedia, development of revisions to protected
templates is done.  When we have a complete version there, fully functional
with all links and so on, and have reached some consensus about it being
ready (via discussion at Talk:GnuCash and/or here in gnucash-devel), then
it will be easy for an administrator to copy it over to the main page.

Developing a proposed new version within the Wiki is consistent with the
plan envisaged at the Talk page of the main page, which states:
Please add your suggested changes here and we will commit them as soon as
possible (usually in less than a few hours).--Cstim
 04:53, 27 January 2006 (EST)

But I think it is helpful to have a complete new version in a Wiki page,
ready to be copied over, rather than requesting changes piecemeal on the
Talk page or on the gnucash-devel email list.  It is too cumbersome to
request them that way, and requested change might not work, because it
hasn't been demonstrated in a sandbox.  I would develop the sandbox if
someone would please create a sandbox page. :)

cheers, Don

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 2:30 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote:

> I would like to propose substantial changes to the Wiki landing page (
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash  /GnuCash>), a page I can’t edit. I apologize in advance for the length
> and complexity of this email, but that’s the price to pay for control.
>
> For ease of analysis, I have put
>
> {Begin}--- and
> {END}---
>
> around the proposed wiki text. I should also note that there are many
> minor edits in my texts, beyond the higher-level reorganization. Finally, I
> include comments about changes in a section immediately after that section.
>
> Now, on to the edits!
>
> First off, the complexity of the page recommends an opening table of
> contents with the following (linked) top level headings:
>
> 1) Available Documentation
> 1.x) Wiki Translation
> 2) Installation
> 3) Support Options
> 4) Developing for GnuCash
>
> This table of