Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 10/02/2019 19:46, Alex Aycinena wrote: It is possible that Wm is noting a problem in gnucash that I'm trying to address with my 'Book Currency' enhancement (unfortunately, a bit delayed). I'm not antagonistic to your idea, Alex, just not sure I understand it. For most users who deal in a home currency most of the time and occasionally buy a foreign currency, say on a trip, and spend it on expenses, this deficiency won't show itself. Agree, we've a person in devel yelling about just that. But for people who deal in multiple currencies often, with complicated transactions, it may. Consider the following scenario: 1. A user is based in Europe and considers their home currency to be Euros following 2. The user uses Euros to buy multiple lots of GBPs at different times. The transactions each have different implicit exchange rates in the individual splits, but gnucash doesn't do any automatic lot tracking. I think I have to intervene and say Trading Accounts is your fairy godmother. If you aren't using them you are a silly boy, Alex. Some of the GBPs are used for expenses expressed in EURs. The splits associated with these expenses also have implicit exchange rates, but they don't have any relationship to the purchased GBP's costs unless the user makes carefull off-line calculations and enters the right amounts. I think that is a broken example. Small transactions are allowed to be discarded and joined into "we went out, bought a meal, had some some drinks with lovely people in a pub", I'm not a social media person (think it is all silly really) but don't have a problem with reality. I think Alex is wanting to track lots when he shouldn't. Alex: significant lots? sure; small amounts of spending? nope. trading accounts do this for free anyway. 3. The user then uses left-over GBPs to buy USDs. The split entered into gnucash has an implicit exchange rate of USDs to GBPs but nothing expressed in Euros. You and I my be agreeing on a problem that I have noticed in the TB regarding presumed valuations. If you want to run a report representing these transactions in Euros there is no way to do so unless you use an externally supplied exchange rate (e.g., from the price db) because the splits themselves don't have all the required information. Yes! I think you are a man so we will hug rather than kiss :) All: I think I may have insulted Alex by not reading everything he said before. It gets confusing sometimes. Alex: you are allowed to say I am an idiot or fool. If you want to run a report 'at cost', you also can't do this because item 3, above, doesn't contain the right information (so you have to 'fudge it' with an amount from the price db). This is wrong, the cost is yours or mine, an actual cost not a price.db cost for a remote commodity. I agree with Alex. This can be overcome procedurally in gnucash by using the trick of entering the #3 transaction in a register of an account denominated in Euros even if that account isn't involved in the transaction. Why would you do that? I am asking because I can't see the point. One split will sell the GBPs in EURs, the other will buy USDs in EURs and as soon as you hit the enter key, the transaction will 'disappear' from the register it was entered in (since neither of the splits were for that account). I wrote some stuff below and now I am asking, how do you get gnc to disappear splits? I am in favour of gnc keeping them. The transaction, however, will show up in the registers for the accounts involved and they will contain the implicit exchange rates that were missing above (but not necessarily with any lot tracking and still requiring a lot of off-line calculations to figure out the right numbers to enter into the splits). Alex: you said something important there. I'm sure I'm not fighting with you. Thinking: there is something significant in Alex's para above, I think I need to read it again. I may not reach the same conclusion but it would be stupid if I didn't understand. Now a report 'at cost' could be run, but only if the trick was used procedurally for every transaction not involving the home currency. Of course, this can't be assumed to be the case. I'm not convinced, if the report shows holdings in each commodity and currency and it works every time <-- it has to, there are some times pretending to be clever doesn't work, I think we are getting to that point with Alex's proposal. The 'book currency' feature is intended to deal with this by, if the 'book currency' feature is selected, forcing every non-book-currency split to be denominated in book-currency No! No! No! Don't be aggressive towards good accounting! (i.e., like the trick, above, but without having to use a third account register) you don't need to and enforcing lot tracking for each of these transactions (to get rid of all the off-line calculations), also superfluous (there are reasons to use
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 11/02/2019 17:30, Adrien Monteleone wrote: Please tell me the intent is to *add* the book currency value, not replace the actual currency value. Our USA friends are still thinking about what a TB is for. I would hope that the actual currency transaction data would still be available. > The actual transaction values should be prime in a TB. If you have to reconcile against statements or receipts (or suffer an audit) with foreign amounts sans their ‘book currency’ equivalents, such original data would be critical. Agreed, you know how much the tx was for, your audit should agree. A trial balance should never be speculative (unless you voted for Trump in which case buying shares in jewish orientated russian biased golf clubs that own wall building companies would seem a good idea). Please check if your financial adviser is qualified before taking their advice and it is with regret that I mention Judaism, Trump's son in law is a nasty person regardless of religion. If so, this is how I originally conceived GC was operating till I learned otherwise. Shrug, where do we learn more about "book currency". ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Please tell me the intent is to *add* the book currency value, not replace the actual currency value. I would hope that the actual currency transaction data would still be available. If you have to reconcile against statements or receipts (or suffer an audit) with foreign amounts sans their ‘book currency’ equivalents, such original data would be critical. If so, this is how I originally conceived GC was operating till I learned otherwise. Regards, Adrien > On Feb 10, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Alex Aycinena wrote: > > > The 'book currency' feature is intended to deal with this by, if the 'book > currency' feature is selected, forcing every non-book-currency split to be > denominated in book-currency (i.e., like the trick, above, but without > having to use a third account register) and enforcing lot tracking for each > of these transactions (to get rid of all the off-line calculations), thus > providing a basis for tracking cost and eliminating the need for an > external price reference (unless you want to see an estimate of current > value). > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 11/02/2019 04:03, David Carlson wrote: Wm, before you run off at the mouth with all your innuendos, look at facts. I'm hoping you get a message from Liz If you don't there is something rotten in this list's administration. Did you try running a test on one of your backups from around June 2016 using Gnucash 2.6.12 or earlier? No. Why? Because I own a transaction stream. Watermelon. My transaction stream is the same regardless of how it is interpreted. Golf ball. I think that if you do you will find that the Trial Balance Report is correct if you scrupulously check the settings to use the Average Price valuation method and check your price database to be sure that the transaction generated prices are present. you may be a person of high IQ in your local community. you don't understand a trial balance. John Ralls alluded to that earlier today. JohnR isn't saying the same thing to me and you, Trump voter. In fact, I bet yay, how much are you prepared to bet, you piece of shit? My estimate is that you will bet fuck all because you are wrong. You are just a noisy person. > you could try re-running the Trial Balance Report in release 3.4 on a current data file using the Average Balance method of valuation. There is no point, the valuation approach is wrong. There was a period when GnuCash was not entering transaction generated prices into the price database as Alex noted, but that was corrected some time ago and recent prices from recent transactions are all entered in the price database. The price db has FUCK ALL to do with the TB > Granted, it will be difficult to find many of those old missing transaction generated prices that involve the base currency but maybe they might get added back by using the trading accounts feature. I have not tried that, but it might be worth a try. You don't appear to have a clue what the issue is. As Alex suggested, transactions that do not involve the base currency would need to be dealt with some other way. David Carlson Do *not* invoke other people without their permission in future, David Carlson I *know* I get Liz angry but you have broken all the rules regarding good manners by being an actual liar. That is not easily forgiven. -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 09/02/2019 13:03, D via gnucash-devel wrote: That sounds to me like it's using a different exchange rate from one day to another, and I'd agree with your assessment in that case. I would have thought that the exchange rate in the transaction would be used. You are correct. I have an amount of something (shares, foreign currency, whatever) worth (nominally) what I paid for it. Mind you, I can't wrap my head around the subtleties that seem to apply on this report. There should not be any subtleties in a TB, it is an internal document not a public facing one, the tax people don't ask for your trial balance in any place I know unless they think you are bad person in the first place. If I don't buy or sell some of whatever it is, I just have what I have for TB purposes. If I want to place a value on whatever I put a price in the price database on a date and use a Balance Sheet report. The TB is about *actual* tx not values at some putative point in time later. -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 10/02/2019 22:52, David Carlson wrote: Wm, Where does unrealized income fall into tb if there is no price in the database on the closing date for one or more security or currency accounts because it was not sold? Essentially it doesn't occur, it is just a number of something if you aren't using Trading Accounts. The TB isn't about the *value* of stuff, it is about what you paid for it at a time and how much of it you have at a point in time or over a point in time. The Balance Sheet is about the value of stuff at a point in time. The Income Statement is about how you got to a value over a specific period of time. The TB is worthless or pointless if it "double dips" into either of those major reports remits. === Consider this tx 2010-01-01 Assets:Cash -100 Assets:XYZa +100 Cash is real money in your home currency XYZa is an unlisted investment What your TB should show wrt XYZa is that you have 100 home currency units (usually called money) worth of it. That never changes unless something else happens. Consider this tx 2010-01-01 Assets:Cash -100 Assets:XYZa +4 shares @ 25 each Unless someone else is buying and selling those XYZa shares they are only worth what you paid for them at best, your TB should reflect that you have 4 XYZa shares not guess what their value is. Am I explaining this well or not? The Balance Sheet allows you to put a value on stuff The Income Statement says how you got there The Trial Balance should say what you actually have and what actually happened rather than what you think you have and would like to have happened. Why? Because it is good accounting. -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 10/02/2019 12:40, David Carlson wrote: Lets all step back a second and consider what the report is supposed to show before deciding whether it is always correct. I think the report is conceptually broken. The report is supposed to cover all of the assets and liabilities that were selected when configured only over time interval which was also selected during the configuration. It doesn't do that as far as I can tell. It is supposed to use a method of valuation for accounts not in the base currency which is also selected during the report configuration. It doesn't do that, actually. My reading of the code (and I am an acknowledged fool when it comes to scheme) is that it uses a balance sheet type approach rather than a p+l type approach to time. If I am right then the report is wrong to begin with, because a trial balance can be for either, a P+L type report (i.e. tx from begin date to end date) OR for a Balance Sheet type report (i.e. start at the beginning up to a point, what have we got?) Over the last several years there have been a number of discussions about whether the various valuation methods work correctly, with respect to report dates vs dates available in the data file and even whether the values should be displayed or calculated with exact i.e. fractional numbers or in floating point. All of that is in the infrastructure, not in the actual report code. That is incorrect. A trial balance is a report, it shouldn't be doing valuations at all *except* right at the end, maybe. If it is going to do valuations they should be presented separately from the account balances. Remember flox, at trial balance (and it can be from any date to any date) you have something like 100 in your own currency 1 in your fantasy currency 10 shares (or similar) in investment A 11 units (or similar) in investment B etc *that* is what a trial balance should report, the *money* value of investment A, Investment B and the fantasy currency is what the Balance Sheet, etc is for, the TB is a different animal. I believe there were some code changes implemented over the life of the 2.6 code series, and there were more changes in the transition to 3.x. I don't think we're getting anywhere (I have read the bug thread) I think the bottom line is that yes, different code releases will give different results with some data even if the report configurations are scrupulously checked to be identical. That's scary. Now, where do we want to go from here? I think we need a new TB. The problem is it can't be implemented however good it is because we're stuck with Scheme reports. -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 10/02/2019 16:54, John Ralls wrote: The "Average Cost" price source creates a price based on the actual transaction prices and is designed for the TB report, see the thread beginning with https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-devel/2008-July/023297.html. I broke it for 2.6.13-2.6.21, see https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=775368. The "Average Cost" and note that even 2.6.21 didn't fully fix it; that didn't happen until 3.2. Average cost is the *only* price source that works for the Trial Balance Report. In particular the "Nearest in Time" and "Most Recent" sources will take prices from the price database that are unlikely to reflect the actual prices for the transactions and will vary depending on the date of the report. I agree with Adrien that we should consider removing the price source option from that report and hard-wire it to average cost. > Why average cost? A TB should use actual numbers. We are meant to be checking what happened rather than the value of what happened. There are separate reports for that, we call them the Balance Sheet, Equity Statement, Income Statement and similar. The TB is internal. At the risk of pushing too much burden onto you, JohnR, for which I apologise, I'm not at all sure gnc's TB should be there as it stands *unless* one rarely uses commodities of any sort. If you're a home currency only person that thinks stock markets are the devil's own work it will probably be good enough. Otherwise I think it is time we said, not fit for purpose. The logical problem for me is that the SQL is so simple and the Scheme involved in a new report when it is being deprecated is largely pointless. -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 10/02/2019 09:14, Geert Janssens wrote: Op zondag 10 februari 2019 09:56:51 CET schreef Adrien Monteleone: I’m in agreement on that note. I understand why someone who doesn’t close books would like a report that shows a current position. But the Trial Balance report is really only useful for the close books crowd. It should only reflect actual transactions in the various registers. In the case of assets then, it shouldn’t be estimating based on any user choice of average, nearest date or such, it should be taking actual purchase price just like you would if you did it on paper. In Belgium you have the choice (or at least used to have - I haven't checked lately): We can/could report the balance using purchase values or using current values, with current values meaning current at the report date. that would be for a balance sheet, p+l or similar public facing document, not a trial balance a trial balance is an internal document or work sheet to help figure out (usually) human type accounting errors like something being put on the balance sheet side rather than the p+l side or similar (e.g. an expense as a liability or some such, these are quite easy mistakes to make if you don't have formal accounting knowledge or even if you do, happen to be busy and think "I'll just post it and sort it out later") some people actually stop formal accounting training at trial balance stage in the UK, I am not joking. if you can bring a set of accounts to trial balance you will probably find work. the balance sheet and p+l are the easy parts if someone else has done the work :) if the value of a tx changed because of a share price rising or falling or an exchange rate changing it doesn't affect the trial balance at all, it is the numbers that we are seeking to balance, not their values in english language accounting we call it the trial balance because it is for testing the stuff we produce later (p+l, bs, etc) -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
> > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: John Ralls > To: Adrien Monteleone > Cc: "gnucash-de...@lists.gnucash.org" > Bcc: > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 08:54:03 -0800 > Subject: Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I > think it is gnc not me > The "Average Cost" price source creates a price based on the actual > transaction prices and is designed for the TB report, see the thread > beginning with > https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-devel/2008-July/023297.html. > I broke it for 2.6.13-2.6.21, see > https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=775368. The "Average Cost" and > note that even 2.6.21 didn't fully fix it; that didn't happen until 3.2. > > Average cost is the *only* price source that works for the Trial Balance > Report. In particular the "Nearest in Time" and "Most Recent" sources will > take prices from the price database that are unlikely to reflect the actual > prices for the transactions and will vary depending on the date of the > report. I agree with Adrien that we should consider removing the price > source option from that report and hard-wire it to average cost. > > Regards, > John Ralls > > It is possible that Wm is noting a problem in gnucash that I'm trying to address with my 'Book Currency' enhancement (unfortunately, a bit delayed). For most users who deal in a home currency most of the time and occasionally buy a foreign currency, say on a trip, and spend it on expenses, this deficiency won't show itself. But for people who deal in multiple currencies often, with complicated transactions, it may. Consider the following scenario: 1. A user is based in Europe and considers their home currency to be Euros 2. The user uses Euros to buy multiple lots of GBPs at different times. The transactions each have different implicit exchange rates in the individual splits, but gnucash doesn't do any automatic lot tracking. Some of the GBPs are used for expenses expressed in EURs. The splits associated with these expenses also have implicit exchange rates, but they don't have any relationship to the purchased GBP's costs unless the user makes carefull off-line calculations and enters the right amounts. 3. The user then uses left-over GBPs to buy USDs. The split entered into gnucash has an implicit exchange rate of USDs to GBPs but nothing expressed in Euros. If you want to run a report representing these transactions in Euros there is no way to do so unless you use an externally supplied exchange rate (e.g., from the price db) because the splits themselves don't have all the required information. If you want to run a report 'at cost', you also can't do this because item 3, above, doesn't contain the right information (so you have to 'fudge it' with an amount from the price db). This can be overcome procedurally in gnucash by using the trick of entering the #3 transaction in a register of an account denominated in Euros even if that account isn't involved in the transaction. One split will sell the GBPs in EURs, the other will buy USDs in EURs and as soon as you hit the enter key, the transaction will 'disappear' from the register it was entered in (since neither of the splits were for that account). The transaction, however, will show up in the registers for the accounts involved and they will contain the implicit exchange rates that were missing above (but not necessarily with any lot tracking and still requiring a lot of off-line calculations to figure out the right numbers to enter into the splits). Now a report 'at cost' could be run, but only if the trick was used procedurally for every transaction not involving the home currency. Of course, this can't be assumed to be the case. The 'book currency' feature is intended to deal with this by, if the 'book currency' feature is selected, forcing every non-book-currency split to be denominated in book-currency (i.e., like the trick, above, but without having to use a third account register) and enforcing lot tracking for each of these transactions (to get rid of all the off-line calculations), thus providing a basis for tracking cost and eliminating the need for an external price reference (unless you want to see an estimate of current value). I don't know if this is related to the problem Wm is seeing, but it might be. Alex ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Lets all step back a second and consider what the report is supposed to show before deciding whether it is always correct. The report is supposed to cover all of the assets and liabilities that were selected when configured only over time interval which was also selected during the configuration. It is supposed to use a method of valuation for accounts not in the base currency which is also selected during the report configuration. Over the last several years there have been a number of discussions about whether the various valuation methods work correctly, with respect to report dates vs dates available in the data file and even whether the values should be displayed or calculated with exact i.e. fractional numbers or in floating point. All of that is in the infrastructure, not in the actual report code. I believe there were some code changes implemented over the life of the 2.6 code series, and there were more changes in the transition to 3.x. I think the bottom line is that yes, different code releases will give different results with some data even if the report configurations are scrupulously checked to be identical. Now, where do we want to go from here? David Carlson On Sun, Feb 10, 2019, 3:17 AM Geert Janssens Op zondag 10 februari 2019 09:56:51 CET schreef Adrien Monteleone: > > I’m in agreement on that note. I understand why someone who doesn’t close > > books would like a report that shows a current position. But the Trial > > Balance report is really only useful for the close books crowd. It should > > only reflect actual transactions in the various registers. In the case of > > assets then, it shouldn’t be estimating based on any user choice of > > average, nearest date or such, it should be taking actual purchase price > > just like you would if you did it on paper. > > In Belgium you have the choice (or at least used to have - I haven't > checked > lately): > We can/could report the balance using purchase values or using current > values, > with current values meaning current at the report date. > > Regards, > > Geert > > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Op zondag 10 februari 2019 09:56:51 CET schreef Adrien Monteleone: > I’m in agreement on that note. I understand why someone who doesn’t close > books would like a report that shows a current position. But the Trial > Balance report is really only useful for the close books crowd. It should > only reflect actual transactions in the various registers. In the case of > assets then, it shouldn’t be estimating based on any user choice of > average, nearest date or such, it should be taking actual purchase price > just like you would if you did it on paper. In Belgium you have the choice (or at least used to have - I haven't checked lately): We can/could report the balance using purchase values or using current values, with current values meaning current at the report date. Regards, Geert ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
I’m in agreement on that note. I understand why someone who doesn’t close books would like a report that shows a current position. But the Trial Balance report is really only useful for the close books crowd. It should only reflect actual transactions in the various registers. In the case of assets then, it shouldn’t be estimating based on any user choice of average, nearest date or such, it should be taking actual purchase price just like you would if you did it on paper. Regards, Adrien > On Feb 10, 2019, at 2:47 AM, D via gnucash-devel > wrote: > > Ok. I'll preface my comments with the note that every time I try to > understand how the trial balance report works, someone on the list points out > how misguided my understanding is > > That being said, I don't understand how a trial balance of completed > transactional history could change value based on a change in price history > settings. The euros I bought last week might be worth more this week, but I'd > expect the report to be based on what was real, versus the imaginary value > those euros have gained or lost since then. > > David T. > > On February 10, 2019, at 2:40 AM, David Carlson > wrote: > > Following up on my last email, in version 2.6.17 the Trial Balance report > does default to nearest in time as the default valuation procedure. I don't > know what happens in 3.4. > > > David Carlson > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Ok. I'll preface my comments with the note that every time I try to understand how the trial balance report works, someone on the list points out how misguided my understanding is That being said, I don't understand how a trial balance of completed transactional history could change value based on a change in price history settings. The euros I bought last week might be worth more this week, but I'd expect the report to be based on what was real, versus the imaginary value those euros have gained or lost since then. David T. On February 10, 2019, at 2:40 AM, David Carlson wrote: Following up on my last email, in version 2.6.17 the Trial Balance report does default to nearest in time as the default valuation procedure. I don't know what happens in 3.4. David Carlson On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 9:05 AM David Carlson wrote: Now if there is an exchange rate entry for 12-19 and 12-16 but not for 12-18 or 12-17-2017 and the report is using nearest in time, that could cause what you are seeing. On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 7:04 AM D via gnucash-devel wrote: That sounds to me like it's using a different exchange rate from one day to another, and I'd agree with your assessment in that case. I would have thought that the exchange rate in the transaction would be used. Mind you, I can't wrap my head around the subtleties that seem to apply on this report. David On February 9, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: On 09/02/2019 07:00, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: > Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a > problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all > is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I decided > to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. OK, have a think about this. Having deleted the tx previously mentioned. If I run a TB report to 2017-12-17 it balances. If I run a TB report to 2017-12-18 it is out by .01 Problem? There are no tx on 2017-12-18 The ordinary use of a TB is to help find accounting errors. If the report introduces errors I say it is not fit to be used. https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797097 -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Following up on my last email, in version 2.6.17 the Trial Balance report does default to nearest in time as the default valuation procedure. I don't know what happens in 3.4. David Carlson On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 9:05 AM David Carlson wrote: > Now if there is an exchange rate entry for 12-19 and 12-16 but not for > 12-18 or 12-17-2017 and the report is using nearest in time, that could > cause what you are seeing. > > > > On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 7:04 AM D via gnucash-devel < > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote: > >> That sounds to me like it's using a different exchange rate from one day >> to another, and I'd agree with your assessment in that case. I would have >> thought that the exchange rate in the transaction would be used. >> >> Mind you, I can't wrap my head around the subtleties that seem to apply >> on this report. >> >> David >> >> On February 9, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel < >> gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote: >> >> On 09/02/2019 07:00, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: >> > Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a >> > problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all >> > is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I >> decided >> > to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. >> >> OK, have a think about this. >> >> Having deleted the tx previously mentioned. >> >> If I run a TB report to 2017-12-17 it balances. >> >> If I run a TB report to 2017-12-18 it is out by .01 >> >> Problem? There are no tx on 2017-12-18 >> >> The ordinary use of a TB is to help find accounting errors. If the >> report introduces errors I say it is not fit to be used. >> >> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797097 >> >> -- >> Wm >> >> ___ >> gnucash-devel mailing list >> gnucash-devel@gnucash.org >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel >> ___ >> gnucash-devel mailing list >> gnucash-devel@gnucash.org >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel >> > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Now if there is an exchange rate entry for 12-19 and 12-16 but not for 12-18 or 12-17-2017 and the report is using nearest in time, that could cause what you are seeing. On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 7:04 AM D via gnucash-devel < gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote: > That sounds to me like it's using a different exchange rate from one day > to another, and I'd agree with your assessment in that case. I would have > thought that the exchange rate in the transaction would be used. > > Mind you, I can't wrap my head around the subtleties that seem to apply on > this report. > > David > > On February 9, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel < > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote: > > On 09/02/2019 07:00, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: > > Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a > > problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all > > is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I decided > > to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. > > OK, have a think about this. > > Having deleted the tx previously mentioned. > > If I run a TB report to 2017-12-17 it balances. > > If I run a TB report to 2017-12-18 it is out by .01 > > Problem? There are no tx on 2017-12-18 > > The ordinary use of a TB is to help find accounting errors. If the > report introduces errors I say it is not fit to be used. > > https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797097 > > -- > Wm > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
That sounds to me like it's using a different exchange rate from one day to another, and I'd agree with your assessment in that case. I would have thought that the exchange rate in the transaction would be used. Mind you, I can't wrap my head around the subtleties that seem to apply on this report. David On February 9, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: On 09/02/2019 07:00, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: > Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a > problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all > is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I decided > to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. OK, have a think about this. Having deleted the tx previously mentioned. If I run a TB report to 2017-12-17 it balances. If I run a TB report to 2017-12-18 it is out by .01 Problem? There are no tx on 2017-12-18 The ordinary use of a TB is to help find accounting errors. If the report introduces errors I say it is not fit to be used. https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797097 -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 09/02/2019 07:00, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I decided to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. OK, have a think about this. Having deleted the tx previously mentioned. If I run a TB report to 2017-12-17 it balances. If I run a TB report to 2017-12-18 it is out by .01 Problem? There are no tx on 2017-12-18 The ordinary use of a TB is to help find accounting errors. If the report introduces errors I say it is not fit to be used. https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797097 -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
On 09/02/2019 07:00, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I decided to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. OK now it is getting weird, this tx involves no fx or trading accounts but throws the TB report out by a penny. === Exp:Week:Rec Dr 4.00 Liabilities:Accounts Payable:Y Cr 4.00 === I kid you not, the tx is for 4.00 but the TB goes wrong by .01 -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
[GNC-dev] tb, gnc or me? my trial balance is wrong and I think it is gnc not me
Background: My gnc TB has been wrong for years. This hasn't been a problem for me because I can do my own TB in sql and satisfy myself all is relatively well with my accounts. Over the last week or so I decided to try again and I think the gnc TB report is b0rked. Looking at the bug list, I'm not making a new observation, the gnc TB is not a feature of which to be proud but I think I can help. The problems seem to be centered around two things: 1. using currency other than your home currency 2. related to that, using trading accounts Guess what? If it was that simple it would have been solved by now, right? I have loads of tx in a number of currencies using trading accounts that don't make the gnc TB throw a wobbly but have identified the first that makes it go wrong. So, let's look at a tx that does make it go wrong, maybe someone will help me to think, it is possible I've looked at this for too long and am missing something really obvious. === Liabilities:Loans:T:T ZAR Dr 7,963.46 Liabilities:Loans:T:T USD Cr 771.22 === The numbers are real, I've changed the account names slightly, I've separated this particular tx as the first that makes the gnc TB go wrong and does actually balance by my understanding of accounting and mathematics. The prices look right, the actual exchange rate is real, what is wrong? Things to consider: If the price to be used is the issue, is the gnc TB using the right price? My answer may be "yes, usually it does use the right price, I can't work out why it sometimes doesn't" Does this raise an accounting honesty issue? I think it does. If you need to roll your own to get a TB from a transaction stream something isn't right. Alternatively, please help me to see what is wrong with my tx. have a joke: Trump wants to be the Dutch boy, first he needs a dyke, then he realises his fingers are tiny :) -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
