- Original Message -
From: Francesco
Parrotta
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: [newbie-it] unscribe
intendevo come collegarlo ad un icona del desktop
grazie
mago merlino
Il mer, 27 set 2000, hai scritto:
Guarda bene il "desktop" (scrivania) : ci dev'essere la rappresentazione di
un piccolo monitor
sul pannello di kde.
Clicca li' e sim-sala-bim ecco una console..
ciao
= Original
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
intendevo come collegarlo ad un icona del desktop
grazie
mago merlino
Il mer, 27 set 2000, hai scritto:
Guarda bene il "desktop" (scrivania) : ci dev'essere la rappresentazione di
un piccolo monitor
sul pannello di kde.
Clicca li' e sim-sala-bim
salve, ho dei problemi a compilare il kernel:
nella dir usr/src/linux dò il comando make xconfig, e mi viene risposto:
"no rule to make target 'xconfig'. stop.
premetto che accedo da root e che non funziona neanche con make config
o menuconfig.
saluti Marco
In a message dated 26-Sep-00 21:27:25 Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
So I buy a
Ford.
oh buy an engine that is impossible to work on and dies all the time sounds
like
WINDOWS!!!
ford = windows of the automobile industry
Not sure if this question belongs here or in [expert], so I'll start here
since I've just subscribed to both.
I am a fairly recent Mandrake 7.1 user. After purchasing "GTK+ / Gnome
Applications Development" I needed to install the various support libraries.
I used RPMDrake and installed a bunch
I just installed 7.1, everything seems to be working fine, except when I
tried to log on to gaim I was told that it was "not configured" now what
do I do?
Thanks,
Frank
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote:
Has any one heard?
The Microsoft Antitrust Case is going to a lower court. And if George W.
Bush has his way. Mr. Bill
will be able add - force people to accept what comes with Windows? It's a
sad day.
Just my $0.02
Roman
--
Pardon my French, but who
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
Isnt OSX a MAC versions of Operating System. I thought it's not related to
Linux. Of course there are some Linux distributions for the Mac. But what
I've heard Apple is producing the next generation of O/S entitled OSX.
Rob
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, you wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
I just installed 7.1, everything seems to be working fine, except when I
tried to log on to gaim I was told that it was "not configured" now what
do I do?
Thanks,
Frank
--
Get the latest release. I believe it to be at http://www.marko.net or
something
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
Isnt OSX a MAC versions of Operating System. I thought it's not related to
Linux. Of course there are some Linux distributions for the Mac. But what
I've heard Apple is producing the next generation of O/S entitled OSX.
Mark
Thanks for this.
try reinstalling and this time don't do the HDD optimization. I don't
think with a drive that big and a system as efficient as linux that you're
going to really need to worry about optimizing, and I suspect that there
is a small , but apparently noticable enough hardware
Ken,
Thank you very much. That little recipe got slammed into the .procmailrc
file REAL quick. Awesome!
thanks again,
--
Mark
** =/\= No Penguins were harmed | ICQ#27816299
** _||_ in the making of this |
OpenGL, is the "Mesa" rpms. You will need to make sure you install the Mesa-devel rpm
for the compile to work. They should be on the CD.
-- Original Message --
From: KompuKit [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000
Dear all,
Please help - I am only one step away from configuring Linux (Mandrake 7.1)
and removing Windows from my machine FOREVER :)
At present I can't get Linux to recognise my modem - I am pretty sure that
it is not a Winmodem (there isn't anything anywhere that says it is a
Winmodem #8211;
oh gee that was phreakin helpful thanks for nothing.
I loooked there and already found nothing but kde screenshots.
Any *useful* information now??
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 26-Sep-00 13:44:39 Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sorry
I would look in my /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit file and
check for references to hdparm commands,
when you find these, you can then comment them
out if you like or change them to your liking.
There should be some info on this (the hdparm command
and its parameters) on http://www.mandrakeuser.org
just
Hi, can anybody tell me how i can get colour on the netscape browsers
interface, it's grey and the pic's on the buttons are black...if their's
supposed to be colour that is. Any help would be great, thank's in advance..
Robert.
No kidding thats why Billyboy hates linux, he can't touch it haha!
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Mark Weaver wrote:
Not really...He can't do a thing to the beautiful OS I'm running on my box
that will likely still be running WITHOUT being rebooted once till they
finally get done doodling around in
Robin Regennitter wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
Isnt OSX a MAC versions of Operating System. I thought it's not related to
Linux. Of course there are some Linux distributions for the Mac. But what
I've heard Apple is producing the next generation of O/S entitled OSX.
Rob
Hello,
My first post on the newbie list...
I have been struggling for some time to get SSH to work on my Linux box
(2.2.13-4mdk : Mandrake 6.1).
I believe I finally have it up and running, because I am able to create a
SSH connection from/to the machine itself.
What I can't seem to manage is
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:42:33 -0500, Vic said:
oh gee that was phreakin helpful thanks for nothing.
I loooked there and already found nothing but kde screenshots.
Any *useful* information now??
With an attitude like that you will find that "help' is hard to come by
around here.
If
Pardon my heresy, but I don't think Linux will make it as a viable
alternative desktop for the masses (no offense intended) for the following
reasons:
1) the Linux community is too decentralized.
2) there are no such things as standards, even defacto standards - Cut
Paste is an example -
Thanks to everybody for their responses...
For the record what I had to do was use 7.0 installation CD to setup how I
wanted the drive partitioned then exited the installation after that step
and rebooted with the 7.1 CD and everything worked from there.
I noticed that using auto-allocate on
Hey Y'all,
Before I got into using Linux I used various versions of the MAC O/S and I
always found it to be somewhat unstable, the one thing I did like about it
was the fact that it was not nearly as dumbed down as Windows, it is easy to
use, but you still need to have some kind of understanding
I don't have any screen shots I can forward, but you
could look at 'info grub' which is the manual (I'm still
trying to figure out how to print it out. It's stuffed
into a couple *.bz2 files.) Another excellent resource is -
http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/grub-faq.html
I hope these help.
An intel port of OS-X is never going to happen. The whole Apple vision
depends on a consistent box to go with the OS -- in this case, a box that
only apple makes.
-- jon
From: "F. E. Schaper" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:33:18 -0400
To:
That is not very nice. The guy was just trying to help and you bit off his
head.
Jeff Malka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Registered Linux user 183185
- Original Message -
From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [newbie] any
At 08:11 AM 9/27/00 -0500, you wrote:
Hello,
My first post on the newbie list...
I have been struggling for some time to get SSH to work on my Linux box
(2.2.13-4mdk : Mandrake 6.1).
I believe I finally have it up and running, because I am able to create a
SSH connection from/to the machine
With this beta I've been getting a garbled screen and it would seem like it's
frozen but it's still going and it actually make it to shutdown ...
Starz
"Adam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-
Attachment:
MIME Type: multipart/alternative
Well he flames people can't I flame him too?
BTW thanks for the url
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, David Boles wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:42:33 -0500, Vic said:
oh gee that was phreakin helpful thanks for nothing.
I loooked there and already found nothing but kde screenshots.
Any
I tried that url, is the server down?
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, David Boles wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:42:33 -0500, Vic said:
oh gee that was phreakin helpful thanks for nothing.
I loooked there and already found nothing but kde screenshots.
Any *useful* information now??
Many many many thanks!
Excellent!
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't have any screen shots I can forward, but you
could look at 'info grub' which is the manual (I'm still
trying to figure out how to print it out. It's stuffed
into a couple *.bz2 files.) Another
Ok wait a minute, I got it, must have been a network
glitch down the pipe, its back up.
Thanks
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, David Boles wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:42:33 -0500, Vic said:
oh gee that was phreakin helpful thanks for nothing.
I loooked there and already found nothing but kde
Grub isn't anything fancy to look at (though more than lilo). A basic blue
box w/ a list of the OS's/kernels you can load. As it runs before the OS
screenshots are troublesome to get (not impossible). I think it's a little
nicer since you don't have to type in kernel names and it's easier for
Sorry thought he was yellin at me like he did my room
mate, I know Charley used my computer before
without asking me, and I told him about it,
changed my password and created him an account.
I asked the last flame he did to re direct it
to my room mate but he never did
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000,
"F. E. Schaper" wrote:
I'll leave the Presidential debate open for others to discuss as I think
that is too far off topic for this list, but I will ask you this:
Do you want a President who, up until this point is most famous for
approving the execution of 2 women, and for picking his nose
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
yeah I hope so, Microcrap needs to be wipe out. Open Source Rules!! LOL
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
Isnt OSX a MAC versions of Operating System. I thought it's not related to
Linux. Of course there are some
I think I will just stay in UK, we may Blair, and have no petrol (Got it at the
monent, just waiting for november when they are going to start the blockades
again) but its a nice country.
"F. E. Schaper" wrote:
Hey Y'all,
Before I got into using Linux I used various versions of the MAC O/S
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
the only reason why Mac is different than Intel is the fact they run completely
different processors. Mac is PPC Intel is Pentium.
An intel port of OS-X is never going to happen. The whole Apple vision
depends on a consistent box to go with the OS -- in this
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
I think you'll be surprise.
Pardon my heresy, but I don't think Linux will make it as a viable
alternative desktop for the masses (no offense intended) for the following
reasons:
1) the Linux community is too decentralized.
2) there are no such things
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, you wrote:
Hi, can anybody tell me how i can get colour on the netscape browsers
interface, it's grey and the pic's on the buttons are black...if their's
supposed to be colour that is. Any help would be great, thank's in advance..
Netscape icons do not show colour in
Oh ok, I wonder, is there a way I can create a "rescue" disc
in case I want to replace grub with Lilo in case it does not
co-operate?
I don't think I have grub installed, as it is just some
files in /boot/grub and no install.sh file.
Do I need to install some other software to activate it?
I was just at the site and the links don't work to download the software.
Am I missing something here?
Eric
Subject: Re: [newbie] mail-client software
Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 05:21:11PM +0100
Time to reply!
Quoting Paul ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Mark Weaver
andy...im not sure about that this modem is not a win modem. the probability
of using system resources by this device is very high if it's onboard. on
the other hand you have to be sure about that you have enabled your onboard
modem from bios settings. but the best way to get specific info
Dan,
I took out the source address and I'm still not able to connect.In your
example, I assume you have a genuine
IP address in place of xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx.Do you have a static IP then?
Of course, I'm also starting to wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree
here and maybe I have
You're right (technically)... The main difference, though, is that there
are a million different configurations of intel machines, and only a
handful of apple boxes...
Remember mac clones? They didn't last too long, exactly for that
reason... even now, I can't get my stupid CD-R running on my
- Original Message -
From: "Al Collier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: [newbie] Fw: 7.1 hardware bug
Good luck buddie,
Gee thanks :))
Pete
I need to use tcp wrappers. Do I need to put something in inetd.config to
have it (tcpd) enabled at boot? I can't see any entry for it there.
What is "auth" in inetd.config? What does it do? There is no manual page
for it.
Also when trying "netstat -ta" I get a table entries that show ports
Microspot lead the way, now everybody is trying to do it. -Gary-
In a message dated 9/27/2000 9:20:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
AFAIK, Mac OS-X (and thats "ten", BTW), is the classic, slick Mac GUI sitting
on top of a version of BSD Unix. My little brother just
Okay I have been watching this thread and I just can't resist :-) Let's all
join forces (and I do believe that there is a sufficient number of us) and
everyone vote (write-in ballot) for the Gov of Minnesota -- Jesse "The
Body" Ventura giggle Trust me, no one thought he was going to win the
Hello.
I have been trying to install Linux Mandrake in my old computer and now I
cannot create a Linux partition.
Starting form my 1.2 Gigabyte IDE-HD with Windows NT4 system, I first
deleted the ancient NT partition and
created a new PRI-DOS partition (using fdisk).
When I tried to reformat
[replies below]
Richard Garand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 12190132
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Ronald J. Hall
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT [newbie] Microsoft and George W. Bush
i don't know if this will help, but at the crash try alt-f3, alt-f4 etc
and see if there are indications on the consoles what was going on at
the time
bascule
Shawn Tayler wrote:
Hi Guys,
Just trying out Mandrake 7.1 and I can't get past the Partition setup page during
the install. It
I don't really understand how the US elections work, but if you're talking
about the president, wouldn't Nader be the best of the current candidates?
Richard Garand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 12190132
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Vic wrote:
Oh ok, I wonder, is there a way I can create a "rescue" disc
in case I want to replace grub with Lilo in case it does not
co-operate?
I have the opposite problem: how can I re-install GRUB ?
It came as standard with my Mandrake 7.1 install, but was replaced by
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
It looks like my modem although on COM2 in Windows (ttyS1) is
actually using IRQ 5 instead of IRQ 3 (which is what it should be
according to the documentation that I read). My question has two
parts.
1. How do I check which IRQ my modem is actually
is anyone here using sierra wireless cdpd aircard 210 on linux? I got the
pcmcia-cs-3.1.14-aircard.patch for it but have no idea how to apply that
patch. please email me if you can help.
thanks
Paul
Dunno. I didn't even look before overwriting the included copy of Win ME
(funny name eh?) on the new server with Mandrake. Windows blows
cheese. All that'd happen is someone would rewrite lilo/grub a little to
fix it and then it'd work again. The OS can't really tell the difference.
*^*^*^*
Was
Well it kind of depends. OpenGL is a graphics library and I seriously
doubt that there is an OpenGL rpm on your system. Try rpm -qa | grep
opengl. The missing OpenGL support that the game is refering has to do
with your graphics card drivers. So the question becomes what kind of
graphics card
Steve Dressler wrote:
I have 2 win98 machines, and networked with ADSL going to both computers,
I also have a IBM Server 320 with mandrake 7.1 installed on it. How much
trouble is it to connect it to the network so I can have DSL going to it?
Sorry if this has been topic before.
If
Maybe because you have a Gforce 1 and not a 2 (as the original poster
asked about).
Duh!
Why don't you read some of the faq's I pointed out in the previous
post. It might help you out a bit. I'm also going to assume that your
XF86Config file refers to a 'nv' driver and not the newer
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Pardon my heresy, but I don't think Linux will make it as a viable
alternative desktop for the masses (no offense intended) for the
following
reasons:
1) the Linux community is too decentralized.
This one I can agree on ;-)
One of
CNET posted a review of Mandrake 7.1 this week - favorable but nothing
substantial. It's at linux.cnet.com/linux. The high point (for me, at
least) was the ad for RedHat 6.2. That's ok -- the same ad shows up on
the RedHat 7.0 review. They say the RH 7.0 file is 1 gb -- I think I'll
pass.
-- cmg
Vic wrote:
Oh ok, I wonder, is there a way I can create a "rescue" disc
in case I want to replace grub with Lilo in case it does not
co-operate?
I don't think I have grub installed, as it is just some
files in /boot/grub and no install.sh file.
Do I need to install some other software to
Where does he stand on IP ownership issues etc?
*^*^*^*
Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sungod robes
on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little
pickles at you? -- Real Genius
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Patti Wavinak wrote:
Okay I have been
"F. E. Schaper" wrote:
I'll leave the Presidential debate open for others to discuss as I think
that is too far off topic for this list, but I will ask you this:
Do you want a President who, up until this point is most famous for
approving the execution of 2 women, and for picking his nose
I have a 3d Prophet Geforce 1 DDR, it should detect it automaticlly during
install.
markOpoleO
- Original Message -
From: "James Boeck" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 4:02 PM
Subject: [newbie] 3D Prophet II GTS 32 MB
I just bought a new
Mandrake 7.1 uses the same drivers for Geforce 1 and 2...it is just the same
Nvidea drivers..DUH.
markOpoleO
- Original Message -
From: "Larry Hignight" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [newbie] Geforce 2 driver
Maybe
Hello! estimados amigos de newbie(dear friends)
I'm having some problems installing "acroreader405.tar" and this is the
situation if I go by the book "LM7.0 Getting Started Manual" I'd try :
tar xvf linux -ar-405.tar.gz -the answer is :"tar old option "f "
requires an argument - try :tar --help
The mandrake 2-CD install was 1GB for mebut then i got the iso images
for the full CDs. If you download the ~700-2000 seperate packages you want,
it's probably a bit smaller.
Richard Garand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 12190132
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
I'm dual booting WinME and Mandrake right now. I haven't payed much
attention to this thread. I just saw something about dual booting
Mandrake and WinME. If you have 2 hard drives, it's easy. Put ME on
one, and Mandrake on the other. Set the Linux drive to master, and
you're set. If you
Open up an xterm (or equivlant) and type in the name of the program that is
giving you problems. it'll give you error feedback.
When an X application running under GNOME fails, where do the error
messages go,
and how can I trap for them. I am running Mandrake 7.1 with a GUI
login...
Don't you just love fs support by MS?!
Well, I can't see any reason for not wanting to flash the bios,
especially, if it will add something as convenient as a bootable
cd-rom. Short of that maybe you can get a hold of a partition magic
floppy? If you have another Linux machine maybe you
I thought I answered your question in my first email
Larry Hignight wrote:
Well it kind of depends. OpenGL is a graphics library and I seriously
doubt that there is an OpenGL rpm on your system. Try rpm -qa | grep
opengl. The missing OpenGL support that the game is refering has to do
2000-09-27. Incoming bitstream from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Vic wrote:
Oh ok, I wonder, is there a way I can create a "rescue" disc
in case I want to replace grub with Lilo in case it does not
co-operate?
I have the opposite problem: how can I re-install GRUB ?
It came as
2000-09-27. Incoming bitstream from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I was just at the site and the links don't work to download the software.
Am I missing something here?
Eric
Subject: Re: [newbie] mail-client software
Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 05:21:11PM +0100
Where at Tucows is Mahogony?
I am completely new to Linux, and thoroughly confused, so please forgive my
naivete.
My system:
Video:ATI Rage/RageII PCI (ati_m64)
Sound: VIA PCI Audio Controller (Onboard)
Modem: 5634BTS 56K Video Ready Modem (Hardware) Manuf: Texas Inst.
LAN: Linksys LNEPCI II PCI
possibly try
tar -xzf linux-ar-40.tar.gz
that's how i've always done it
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:22 PM
Subject: [newbie] Console error's?
Hello! estimados amigos de newbie(dear friends)
I'm having
yes macintosh is developing a system based on the linux/unix os, mirosoft
helped a little ofcourse, but the new os looks promissing however stability
of our precious kernel was sacraficed a little infact during the demo that
steve jobs played, cant remember where off hand but one of the
i think your blind next time read it pointed strait to it and only took me a
minute to find it but here is the site
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/demos/Demo/Mandrake7.1/QuickLook/grub.php3
enjoy
In a message dated 27-Sep-00 07:43:53 Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think I've seen some over at http://www.cgi-resources.com
(damn... startin' to feel like an ad for those guys)
-- jon
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, KompuKit wrote:
Can someone tell me where I can get an APP or cgi-script
of some sort..to HOST a WEBRING...on my server?
FREE, of course
Try http://hotscripts.com
KompuKit wrote:
Can someone tell me where I can get an APP or cgi-script
of some sort..to HOST a WEBRING...on my server?
FREE, of course
--
Registered Linux User:167369
=KompuKit=
Kit Goins
heres a thought im running out of space myself and i dont have room on my
laptop to install a 40gb hard drive. any suggestions??
In a message dated 27-Sep-00 12:01:36 Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Buy a second hdd? That's what I do. I see 40Gb'ers selling for $135 these
research by some university shows that statistically linux is the second most
popular os in the world, #1 is still winblows however there are many benifits
in the linux community you have thousands of developers who find a bug post
it and instantly thousands of others begin working on the
welcome to the club!
First Question:
I recently tried to install Linux-Mandrake 6.5 or 6.2 (Whichever the
case
may be, the cover says both) I already have Win 98, Win 2K, and Win
NT on
this computer, so I bought another hard drive for Linux. I used
Partition
commander to create a Linux
Ralph Avery wrote:
[snip]
First Question:
I recently tried to install Linux-Mandrake 6.5 or 6.2 (Whichever the case
may be, the cover says both) I already have Win 98, Win 2K, and Win NT on
this computer, so I bought another hard drive for Linux. I used Partition
commander to create a
Buy a second hdd? That's what I do. I see 40Gb'ers selling for $135 these
days. Move your /home files there and reinstall Mandrake. You can try
resizing but it's usually easier and safer just to add space. Also you
might look to see if you have any non-programs in that partition (mp3's
ec) and
I installed Mandrake as the only OS on my PC with 2GB and used the
standard settings. Now I have a space problem: there is no space left
at all in directory '/' but 87% free in /home. I have lots of strange
errors because of the space problem in '/'. Deleting some application
did not help much,
hi. i log onto a LAN at syracuse university. how do i configure my
connection to work? i have an 3com ethernet card. I found out how to get to
the Network COnfig screen where i can enter my IP, default gateway and
change stuff like that please help...what stuff do i need to know and
how
well if you're using patches from kernel.org it might be that they aren't
liking the mandrake kernel rpms' :P that's the first idea, second ".config"
is after you've configured a kernel, "save and exit" (on make xconfig)
I hope that this gives you some sort of an idea, but I'm sure there are
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