I have zero interest in making your documentation "politically correct"
that is an agenda of evil wrapped in a delusion of not offending and this discussion could not possibly end soon enough.
On 2020-06-08 17:43:19, stse+post...@rootsland.net wrote:
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200,
Thanks you!!
> On Jun 8, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
>
> Please stop complaining or be deleted. I am not seeing any counter
> arguments that haven't already been made in many other project
> contexts.
>
> Wietse
Please stop complaining or be deleted. I am not seeing any counter
arguments that haven't already been made in many other project
contexts.
Wietse
On 6/8/2020 9:54 AM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote:
>
> On 2020/06/08 09:31 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> On 6/8/2020 9:06 AM, John Dale wrote:
>>> Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this
>>> change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who
>>> use the
I'm sorry
I failed to get the last message. Please resend
--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir
On 2020-06-08 09:54, vi...@vheuser.com wrote:
> PS Red-list offends native Americans and Green-list offends
> environmentalists.
And yellow and brown are out. How about mauve and teal?
Or, maybe we get back to this issue after solving world hunger and
homelessness.
--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain
System
On 2020/06/08 09:31 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
On 6/8/2020 9:06 AM, John Dale wrote:
Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this
change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who
use the software would have been served with value, not just platitudes.
Wietse Venema has stated that he would implement (some variant of) the
original request and asked twice for the on-list discussion to stop. At
this stage, I believe it is pointless, and all arguments for or against
have been made several times already. Can we please return to on-topic
matters?
On Monday, 8 June 2020 16.37.08 EEST Ansgar Wiechers wrote:
> On 2020-06-08 John Dale wrote:
> > Why does this agitate people?
>
> Because the whole Political Correctness/Social Justice thing has
> devolved into a religion. Thus all heathens must convert to this faith
> or burn at the stake.
>
On 2020-06-08 John Dale wrote:
> Why does this agitate people?
Because the whole Political Correctness/Social Justice thing has
devolved into a religion. Thus all heathens must convert to this faith
or burn at the stake.
Regards
Ansgar Wiechers
--
"Abstractions save us time working, but they
On 6/8/2020 9:06 AM, John Dale wrote:
> Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this
> change had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who
> use the software would have been served with value, not just platitudes.
Sounds like a lot of pontificating. Can you
Why does this agitate people? Because if the time spend on this change
had been used to fix an actual deficiency, people of color who use the
software would have been served with value, not just platitudes.
On 6/8/20 6:49 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
On 2020-06-07 21:27, Ruben Safir wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the actual master databases and
slave databases? Regardless of what they're called, there is still
subservience represented inherently.
In all seriousness, racial tensions can be manufactured when no racism
actually exists. There is no racism inherent in
On 6/8/2020 8:37 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> The color is widely and somewhat sardonically known as 'bleen' or 'grue'.
See, that's just wrong. We all know what a Grue is...
Regards,
KAM
https://zork.fandom.com/wiki/Grue
On 2020-06-07 21:27, Ruben Safir wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 08:43:08PM -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> On the other, it is difficult to argue that the terms master/slave are
>> *not* problematic. I'm quite certain they were not *chosen* with any
>> malicious intent. Nevertheless...
>
>
On 2020-06-08 04:43, Stephan Seitz wrote:
> On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
>> What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
>> international.
>
> They aren’t. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan.
Well, sort of.
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
>What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
>international.
They arenât. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan.
Stephan
--
|If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it.
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
>What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
>international.
They arenât. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan.
Stephan
--
|If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot it.
On Mo, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:52:34 +0200, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
international.
They aren’t. As far as I know you have a blue light for go in Japan.
Stephan
--
|If your life was a horse, you'd have to shoot
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
m...@junc.eu, please see the screenshot above, you have also sent message
repeatly.
maybe the bug of postfix-users mailing list?
regards
m...@junc.eu wrote:
> On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
>
> you repeatly send the same mail :/
>
ATT1.HTML
Description: Binary data
This message contains attachment 2 of 2.
See message 83 for further information.
JCMCPJGGFKPIGHOM.PNG
Description: Binary data
m...@junc.eu, please see the screenshot above, you have also sent message
repeatly.
maybe the bug of postfix-users mailing list?
regards
m...@junc.eu wrote:
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
On 2020-06-08 07:52, cl...@mobile.oche.de wrote:
you repeatly send the same mail :/
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
> Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
> and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
> black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
> readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
Hi Wietse,
Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
and maybe replacing 'white' as well. As Noel Jones noted, using
black/white for access control may be confusing for non-English
readers.
What about redlist (stop) and greenlist (go)? Traffic lights are pretty
On 6/6/20 10:54 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> Yes. This. Though I do think that having a casual and constant reinforcement
> that black == bad helps people justify their racist beliefs.
No it doesn't and black doesn't equal bad, although dark does... and for
good reason, because darkness hides things
"That is 100% correct technological description"
In Object Oriented Programming nomenclature, Blacklist and Master/Slave
are both "cohesive"!
On 6/7/20 7:27 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
That is 100% correct technological description
"It is a small group of international fanatics"
Somebody's tuned-in. ;)
John
On 6/7/20 7:29 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
It is a small group of international fanatics
On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 09:50:27PM +0200, Fulvio Scapin wrote:
> Hello.
>
> With a prospective of non-native English speaker, I believe that,
> political correctness aside, a name which does not involve a cultural
> reference for the related function to be understood is a welcome
> change since
On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 02:06:14AM +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Ralph and Nicolas - I fully agree with you both.
>
> While I can somehow understand American fixations on political correctness,
It is not American. It is a small group of international fanatics... in
general.
> I find it
On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 08:43:08PM -0400, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> On 2020-06-07 14:46, Laura Smith wrote:
> >> The point here is
> >> that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could
> >> be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more
> >> interested in
On 6/6/20 10:54 PM, @lbutlr wrote:
> Yes. This. Though I do think that having a casual and constant reinforcement
> that black == bad helps people justify their racist beliefs.
No it doesn't and black doesn't equal bad, although dark does... and for
good reason, because darkness hides things
On 2020-06-07 15:23, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
>
> To my European eyes (living in France, born in Austria, Hungarian family) the
> American political correctness movement comes close to what the French call
> "la
> politesse".
>
> Some nasty form of passive-aggressive mud-wrestling.
I agree. I
On 2020-06-07 14:46, Laura Smith wrote:
>> The point here is
>> that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could
>> be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more
>> interested in participating.
>
>
> Give me a break.
>
> Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist
On 2020-06-07 13:26, Noel Jones wrote:
> With postfix, this is mostly a documentation issue, other than a few
> postscreen parameter names.
>
> I'm not opposed to changing postfix documentation and parameter
> names to refer to {allow,permit} and {deny,reject} using whichever
> verb fits best.
May I offer to those who want to continue this off-topic discussion to
do it at https://zoom.us/j/99433754361 ?
up to 100 participants, no time limits, open for the next few days.
It's on my firm. Enjoy. I will be there for the next little while.
No reply to the ML, thanks.
--
Yuval Levy,
Ralph and Nicolas - I fully agree with you both.
While I can somehow understand American fixations on political correctness,
I find it highly inappropriate when Americans want to impose their own
fixations on the whole world.
An assumption that everybody has to view the political/social issues
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome
Pliny probably had slaves.
Ron
On 2020-06-07 2:32 p.m., micah anderson wrote:
Laura Smith writes:
Before jumping on the hobbyhorse of self-righthousness about refusing
to use “whitelist”/“blacklist”, perhaps you would do well to spend a
I am not sure how going to Caucasian-listed vs African-American-listed
is going to help inclusion in the data processing field.
If you or someone you know is "racialialized" and the biggest problem is
how IT describes entities,
Eliminating the word "Black" is not going to address any of
On So, Jun 07, 2020 at 14:32:37 -0400, micah anderson wrote:
the color black has been always associated with the negative, and
As long as the night is dark and black these words are considered
negative. A dark room or a black room are always more negative than
a light room.
Many dangers in
Hello.
With a prospective of non-native English speaker, I believe that,
political correctness aside, a name which does not involve a cultural
reference for the related function to be understood is a welcome
change since it reduces, if marginally, for users the possibility of
misunderstanding
Laura Smith:
> Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks
> feel excluded ?
As maintainer of Postfix, I think that words do matter, just like
the use of he/she/they matters.
Therefore I am looking into replacing 'black' in negative context
and maybe replacing 'white' as
On Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:27:21 -0400
"vi...@vheuser.com" wrote:
> Enough already.
+1
d
--
Affectionate tactile stimulation is a primary need, a need which must
be satisfied if the infant is to develop as a healthy human being.
And what is a healthy human being? One who is able to love, to
On 2020/06/07 14:13 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Jun 7, 2020, at 2:03 PM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote:
Why not take it off this list and contact the developers?
Users can't make small changes.
Enough already.
The intersection of “this is meaningless politics, stop being such a carelord”
and
Le 07/06/2020 à 20:25, Ralph Seichter a écrit :
> Sources, please. A colleague of Kenyan heritage told me that he is, in his
> own words, "sometimes amused but mostly annoyed by the American political
> correctness movement".
To my European eyes (living in France, born in Austria, Hungarian
The practice of systematic erasure of language regresses to human
ideas. Language policing has inertia and a kind of gravity that starts
removing tangential-but-uncontroversial ideas as a byproduct; dangerous
and anti-human! Appropriate usage of the term "Black" is not racist.
Not hiring
> The point here is
> that maybe this is just a small, insignificant, easy change that could
> be done that might make black folks feel less excluded and more
> interested in participating.
Give me a break.
Master/Slave, Blacklist/Whitelist in computing making black folks feel excluded
?
For
Scott Kitterman:
> On Sunday, June 7, 2020 2:03:18 PM EDT vi...@vheuser.com wrote:
> > Why not take it off this list and contact the developers?
> > Users can't make small changes.
> > Enough already.
>
> This list is the appropriate place for users to contact Postfix
> developers. You may not
Laura Smith writes:
> Before jumping on the hobbyhorse of self-righthousness about refusing
> to use “whitelist”/“blacklist”, perhaps you would do well to spend a
> few minutes on your favourite search engine researching the entymology
> of such terms.
>
> The origin of blacklist, for example,
* Norton Allen:
> Someone has suggested that we make a small change
I did not see a suggestion, just a question about how easy it would be
to make changes.
> a change that Black people have said would make them feel better
Sources, please. A colleague of Kenyan heritage told me that he is, in
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 2:03:18 PM EDT vi...@vheuser.com wrote:
> Why not take it off this list and contact the developers?
> Users can't make small changes.
> Enough already.
This list is the appropriate place for users to contact Postfix developers.
You may not have noticed but the creator of
> On Jun 7, 2020, at 2:03 PM, vi...@vheuser.com wrote:
>
> Why not take it off this list and contact the developers?
> Users can't make small changes.
> Enough already.
The intersection of “this is meaningless politics, stop being such a carelord”
and “shield my eyes from further discussion
Noel Jones:
> With postfix, this is mostly a documentation issue, other than a few
> postscreen parameter names.
>
> I'm not opposed to changing postfix documentation and parameter
> names to refer to {allow,permit} and {deny,reject} using whichever
> verb fits best. This might even make
Why not take it off this list and contact the developers?
Users can't make small changes.
Enough already.
On 2020/06/07 12:59 PM, Pau Amma wrote:
On 2020-06-07 18:44, Norton Allen wrote:
[undeserved snippage]
Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black
people
With postfix, this is mostly a documentation issue, other than a few
postscreen parameter names.
I'm not opposed to changing postfix documentation and parameter
names to refer to {allow,permit} and {deny,reject} using whichever
verb fits best. This might even make documentation easier to
On 2020-06-07 18:44, Norton Allen wrote:
[undeserved snippage]
Someone has suggested that we make a small change, a change that Black
people have said would make them feel better, and all we can do is
argue that making that change would be too difficult, unnecessary,
ineffective or
Yes, the request is political. Politics is about how we live and work
together, how we treat each other. Software, particularly open source
software, is not just inanimate objects. It is developed and nurtured
within a community of real people who live in our very real society.
I am going to
I do not wish to become involved in this whole debate, in particular as I think
it is somewhat idiotic to seek to bring the whole Politically Correct debate to
inanimate objects such as computers or software programs.
However, I would like to say just one thing.
Before jumping on the
On 06 Jun 2020, at 14:04, Antonio Leding wrote:
> I respectfully submit that context matters far far more and ignoring that in
> a quest to find a solution to a widespread social ill and\or soothe a shared
> trauma is a very treacherous path. Even the most serious and extreme social
> ills do
On Sat, Jun 06, 2020 at 01:46:14PM -0400, Wietse Venema wrote:
> Wietse Venema:
> > Ian Evans:
> > > Food for thought from the co-author of OAuth and oEmbed. How easy would it
> > > be for Postfix/Postscreen configs/docs to, say, refer to allow/deny lists?
> >
> > Easily, if they can be acessed
On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 19:12:08 +0200
Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> long
> before any racial conflict was taking place.
when was that?
d
--
Affectionate tactile stimulation is a primary need, a need which must
be satisfied if the infant is to develop as a healthy human being.
And what is a healthy
This has become irrelevant to postfix-users, and any technical discussion.
El sáb, 06-06-2020 a las 13:43 -0500, Larry Stone escribió:
> Code changes introduce risk (as I no doubt don’t need to tell Wietse).
> I’m reminded from my days many, many years ago using VAX/VMS systems. In
> looking at the files that made up that operating system, I noticed a file
> name that
Dnia 6.06.2020 o godz. 13:27:43 yuv pisze:
> On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> > Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death),
> > and white with an angel (innocence, etc.)
>
> in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures?
Well, I
On 2020-06-06 16:04, Antonio Leding wrote:
> I respectfully submit that context matters far far more and ignoring that in
> a quest to find a solution to a widespread social ill and\or soothe a shared
> trauma is a very treacherous path. Even the most serious and extreme social
> ills do not
It goes without saying that this kind of a discussion\debate\etc. can easily
turn into something wholly not intended…therefore, all I will offer is this…
Someone said earlier that they refuse to use select words because "words
matter"…I would agree. That said…
I respectfully submit that
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020, 3:09 PM Ralph Seichter, wrote:
> * Ian Evans:
>
> > Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020:
> > I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology
> > for computers. Join me. Words matter.
> >
On 2020-06-06 15:07, Ralph Seichter wrote:
> Corollary: Please don't mistake American sensibilities for something the
> whole world cares about, let alone needs to conform with. Racism is a
> blight on humanity, but there are more important issues to consider than
> the use of colours.
And to
* Ian Evans:
> Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020:
> I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology
> for computers. Join me. Words matter.
> (https://twitter.com/leahculver/status/1269109776983547904?s=03)
Does Leah Culver also refuse to
> On Jun 6, 2020, at 12:47, Wietse Venema wrote:
>
> Changing 'blacklist' into 'blocklist' or 'blackhole' into 'sinkhole'
> seems doable. There is no 'slave' in documentation, program names
> or parameter names. Internal identifiers and comments can be updated
> with no visible consequence.
On 2020-06-06 13:27, yuv wrote:
> On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
>> Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death),
>> and white with an angel (innocence, etc.)
>
> in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures?
Exactly. In Japanese
Wietse Venema:
> Ian Evans:
> > Food for thought from the co-author of OAuth and oEmbed. How easy would it
> > be for Postfix/Postscreen configs/docs to, say, refer to allow/deny lists?
>
> Easily, if they can be acessed via DNSBL/DNSWL qeueries. Any 'new'
> lookup mechanism will have to be added
On Sat, 2020-06-06 at 19:12 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Black color is culturally associated with the devil (and also death),
> and white with an angel (innocence, etc.)
in your culture. have you tried checking other cultures?
> Let's not get crazy.
I agree with you. It applies to all sides
Dnia 6.06.2020 o godz. 08:55:38 Ian Evans pisze:
> Leah Culver (@leahculver) tweeted at 11:32 PM on Fri, Jun 05, 2020:
> I refuse to use “whitelist”/“blacklist” or “master”/“slave” terminology for
> computers. Join me. Words matter.
>
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