--- Start of forwarded message ---
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2024 09:44:58 +0300
Message-Id: <86jzj0djbp@gnu.org>
From: Eli Zaretskii
To: r...@gnu.org
Cc: a...@alphapapa.net, y...@rabkins.net, emacs-de...@gnu.org
In-Reply-To: (message from Richard
Stallman on Fri, 07 Jun 2024
?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
throw hurdles in the way, such as non-free
code,
> captchas, 2FA, or gatekeepers - those are all part of the web culture
This is a very interesting point.
I will show it to someone who might write about it.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https:
t problem alike. But
there are various manners of treatment that we could apply to them
all. This point is important, and we should make that clear to the
reader.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (
dging repos does not imply that
we try to dictate to everyone what they can do.
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erse would want to see. That way we could look at
this question more clearly.
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s, such as encouraging bad practices.
I think the current classification of these two is correct, but we
should talk about the gravity of the B2 failure in a way that clearly
makes this distinction.
And yes, we should say that about each site that fails B2. Perhaps we
should say that
o heed our adcice, they ca do whatever they
like. If they disagree with some critera, they don't need our
explicit permission to disregard those.
However, for those that want to heed our advice, we sh0uld give them
the same advice we give each other.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallma
about this.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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done that.
However, I wouldn't okject to an A+ criterion of "no nonfree JS at all
in the pages" or "no JS at all in the pages."
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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rification can be done with LibreJS.
That avoids the need for various humans to "human-verify" it.
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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gt; do we keep things progressing so they get completed?
For reviews of repo sites, we use the list repo-criteria-discuss@gnu.org.
I don't know of any other way, but it seems to be enough. We're waiting
for people to finish the work of evaluating codeberg.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallm
;
> Is this text still appropriate?
Not enirely. I will look at it.
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the EFF's "best practices" are wise, as far as they go,
for avoiding other kinds of mistreatment.
I will look.
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iles*, or (2) isn't necessary, so that the function works
> properly even if JavaScript is disabled in the browser.
I think this is a good change. Does anyone argue against it?
How about if we copy the current C0.0 into level B?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNU
etween "is free" (verified at the time of review) for level C and
> satisfies-LibreJS for level B
Th enext step is to see what other people have to say about it.
I'm the one who makes the decision but other people's arguments will
affect my conclusions.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (h
go to
> Codeberg docs instead of the choosealicense website. Unfortunately,
> these fixes did not resolve the LibreJS flagging.
Can someone figure out why not?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
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Founder, Free Software Foundation (https:
ter of voting, but that could be a good idea.
"Satisfies LibreJS" could go in level B, leaving "is free" in level C.
> Is there a chance that the simple fix to the licenses URL link will
> address issues with LibreJS?
Try it and see!
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://
ld not "give them
credit for good intentions".
But it is good to give them helpful feedback and encouragement in
getting it right. We should tell them we're eager for them to
properly implement those good intentions.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of
rea, we could simply wait a few
weeks and see if they fix it. There is no super rush about adding any
entry. We want to add more, but no one entry is ever urgent
unless it is negative ;-{.
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder,
ife
> easier to comply are welcome :)
All else being equal, we would like to make it easier -- but not by
eviscerating the checking it is supposed to do.
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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were only one site that needed this, but it is
does not scale to handling thousands of sites.
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specific idea
for what improvement.
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we halp do that? It is much better to do work to make the code
clearly licensed than to do work to avoid saying whether it is clearly
licensed.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org
ear to me. What exactly
are you proposing we do? And why?
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quot;inherited software interface"?
Those words can be parsed in multiple ways.
What is inherited from what?
When we are ready to post the evaluation, it could be useful
for one of us (you?) to show them the draft we will post.
They might decide to fix B2 right away so that they will get a B.
--
;choosing" a license, it is a matter of stating the license
that someone else chose.
It would be bad for a site to refuse to host forks of GPL-2-only packages.
A site could require that people ask permission to make a repo
with GPL-2-only as the license.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stal
correct, but it is not sufficient on its own, because it
is too abstract to give a concrete picture. What are the concrete
requirements for the "canonical source" in a free package manager?
I don't know.
Maybe your full proposal would be good, if suppliemented with a
concrete expla
otally
clear. I think these would be clearer.
Does not impose any authentication requirements for visitors to operate
on projects, other than what the managers of each project have chosen.
WDYT>
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.or
ism rather than a description of a behavior.
What bad thing does an API key do in this situation?
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and download without
authenticating.
(A+0)
should have an exception for private repos -- those that are
explicitly not accessible by the general public.
What do you think of this?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free
per A+ 0?
This is a good point.
I think you are suggesting that we rewrite this criterion (currenty A+
0) to make it more strict. You did not speak of rewriting, but I
think rewriting would be needed, to do this.
Can you suggest new wording?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief
per A+ 0?
This is a good point.
I think you are suggesting that we rewrite this criterion (currenty A+
0) to make it more strict. You did not speak of rewriting, but I
think rewriting would be needed, to do this.
Can you suggest new wording?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief
DF GIT Society.
Thank you. I am glad to see us aking progress.
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that. We simply need people to do the evaluation
and figure out the answers.
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eneral Public License
> > The Apache License
> > The two clause BSD License
> > The three clause BSD License
> > The MIT License
This doesn't particularly recommend any of the permitted licenses
more than any other. So I'd say it does not pass A2.
Do you s
for its having a bug?
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sed in
> the homepage <https://notabug.org> for me.
I wonder what is going on here.
Is the JS code in that page marked as free?
Is it in fact free?
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Thank you for reporting this.
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Chief
, what would be the flaws that prevent it
from advancing to grade A? We would want to mention those in
https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
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Founder, Free Software Foundation
d be glad to replace flags for that. Concretely, what
would we use instead?
What exact URL can I find "the language picker" at?
--
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Int
GitHub account without using github.com and its nonfree JavaScript.
> The situation might change when they actually start requiring
> two-factor authentication, but it seems okay to me for right now.
That's a relief. Thanks for checking.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chi
. According to my memory, it doesn't require nonfree
JS code for usage once the account exists. That's where this change
could make GitHub quantitatively much worse.
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e-line
> > or two-line description of the change.
> Good idea. I've just done that.
> I've also added a link to that page from repo-criteria.html, which
> mentions the proposed list and encourages people to give feedback:
That is good.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman
What do people think of this?
Recommends GPL 3-or-later over others.
Let's clarify this to say
Recommends GPL 3-or-later over other licensing options.
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to people that those two words include this.
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ce. I think it would help people read this to divide the list
of changes into two sublists, one for substantial changes and one for
clarifications of wording.
For the three that are substantive, it would be good to add a one-line
or two-line description of the change.
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Dr Richard Sta
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Thanks.
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of including a license notice
in all nontrivial source files, not just in a few places.
While this is included in "unclear licensing" in B2, I fear it won't
be clear to people that those two words include this.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the G
nges and one for
clarifications of wording.
For the three that are substantive, it would be good to add a one-line
or two-line description of the change.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.o
GPL 3-or-later over other licensing options.
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out
> things that prevent it from moving up to a C to include this.
If this isn't mentioned, it should be.
Would someone like to handle this?
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Interne
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Didn't we update that, and reduce gitlab.com's grade to F?
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Dr Richard Stallman
criteria, and see
repo-criteria.html for our actual, current repo criteria.
Posting this would enable us to get comments more
and work towards making this change.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation
this would enable us to get comments more
and work towards making this change.
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ke the final decisions. I take full
responsibility for these decisions.
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have shown me many URLs, and I don't have time to
figure out which one you mean now.
> So what does that make "we're perfectly happy doing nasty practice X",
> where X is discriminating against people with disabilities?
That makes it a stance that isn't our stance.
--
Dr
o
beyond what the accepted moral standards imply.
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e, but not a moral
goal.
"We will set an example of not doing nasty practice X" starts to adopt
a moral goal.
"We will put an end to the nasty practice X" is a real moral goal.
I explain this in the hope you may understand better what I have said.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://s
consider mine -- but you're
not.
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sue of features not freedom and (2) why software
freedom is properly a higher priority than features, if you were
inclined to have a thoughtful discussion about these questions. But
you're not inclined to do that, so I don't see a point in explaining.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
> requirements would make this already difficult challenge even moreso.
We must stay focused on our purpose, and not give priority to
tangential "nice things to have."
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Founder,
this change.
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priorities. Do you have different priorities? I think
so.
I believe you are sincere about your priorities -- please
recognize that we are sincere about ours.
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announce the change with, so it won't
be wasted effort. But first, it will help us confirm that
these changes are really a good idea.
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Internet Hall
t.
Can users in Iran access GitLab.com via a proxy outside Iran, such as Tor?
If they can, I think that exculpates GitLab itself -- from this.
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I
com say its policy is
towards use by Iranians in Iran? That is important, too.
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resses might be blocked for other reasons, though, it would be
> helpful to see if someone on a normal Iranian residential address has
> the same problem. But I don't think that's strictly necessary.
What exactly are people trying to confirm?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallma
against users in some country?
What does GitLab say about the question?
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com
and to the gitlab software,
There is no doubt about that! We will treat gitlab.com as one thing
and the Gitlab software as another thing.
For now, I believe, we are rating gitlab.com.
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ss all 'B' criteria; but it still has not met B0 and B2 - i
> will add it with an overall 'C' grade initially
Thanks for paying close attention.
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perations do their jobs,
Sometimes there are scripts which do unimportant things,
so that the page is usable even though they are blocked.
We can judge those pages as ok.
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omeone like to turn this into a patch ready to install
in https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html?
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comments related to each item, in their distinct contexts
Posting a summary of the proposed changes sounds like a good idea.
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t; yes, i think so
What do other people think? Does anyone see a valid argument
for not making that change?
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a file repo-criteria-proposed.html
to use for posting those proposals, saying that they are proposed
and not adopted.
Does anyone see a reason not to do that?
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is in them. For me, at least, it would be
more convenient to put them directly into the message body.
Is there a practical benefit in using the attachments?
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
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Thanks. I will install this.
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Chief
issues (all but A1).
> +
> +Therefore, here we address the ethics of the service operators.
This is good as a start. I'll install it in a couple of days if no one
presents a need to change it first.
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org
able future
The question that matters is not "Is It Likely", but "What can we do
to encourage it?" Making this part of our criteria has a chance of
success. Not making it part of our criteria won't improve anything.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU P
notices.
And it does not _remind_ them. To remind them means
to tell them that some files lack notices.
THis is a very important feature that forges should implement.
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g on that project, that is not SaaSS. In this case, _the
project_ is using the forge.
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uires some other work, let's get rid of it.
Requires all works in publicly accessible repos to
be licensed to permit at least sharing of copies
(noncommercial redistribution of exact
copies). (A4-1)
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Proj
tation required?
I say B is the right level. It is the level of "more or less doing
things the right way". The C level is "avoiding things that are
really really bad". The A level is "doing things really right."
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Chief
make it redundant with the proposed B2.1.
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ites do
tend to offer licensing options, I presumed they all would do that.
Should B2 reject sites that say nothing about licensing options?
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I
tification? That
is also an ancillary part of a communication activity.
All communication activity includes parts that are computational.
We should not be too fussy about them when we judge what is SaaSS,
because that would only make trouble for ourselves.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
C
ke it read better and be less informal:
Note that this criterion is based solely on the good faith of
the forge operators. There is no way to verify from outside
that the service does not log connections.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
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of time on defining that term.
It was an abbreviation I used once, nothing more.
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other things mean -- the items are too
terse to tell me.
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utting it at the top of A+ makes sense to me, as it's an important
> criterion and we want to make it prominent.
What do you think of putting it in the A level?
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gt; also uploads its binary artifact to some other server as a
> "nightly" release
Thanks.
CD, as thus defined, is not _in itself_ SaaSS. It is just a matter
of allowing access to download certain files. CI can be SaaSS,
but not CD.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.or
I just don't see the reason to.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
nes, and
> it is fully controllable with the script written by the user, it
> shouldn't be SaaSS.
I think you are right, in regard to CI.
The other case where CI is not SaasSS is when the CI service is
provided by a project you are working on. That is often the case
for GNU.
--
Dr Richard Stallm
ishing between the GPL (2 and 3)-only
> +and the GPL (2 and 3)-or-later.
Use of "(2 and 3)" makes this harder to understand.
Would you please distribute those operations all the way?
It would be longer but it would be clearer.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.o
least as much as any other kind of licensing.
(C5)
> +No other license is more recommended than the GPL
3-or-later.
> +(C5)
The negation makes this harder to understand (for people not
accustomed to set theory and complex grammar), so we should not
make this change.
--
of github.com and gitlab.com. Would someone
like to fix that?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
if the file has a nonsharing license, they would not be
allowed to redistribute copies of it to others after downloading it.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall
A4.
You understand it right.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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