CBA netbank does not use Java. It is just a plain web page with some
JavaScript. To just put a positive spin on things, CBA from March this year
went on to the browser based version. Before this, they had a Win32 client
serving out the application.
Thus, NetBank v2 is a positive step in the right
Hi Guys,
Is there any equivalent of ThinkGeek or Copyleft here in Oz ?
I have looked at EverythingLinux etc.., but not much for the formal worker.
I would dearly love to get up some "M$" supporters PHB's noses by walking
into a meeting with my tux tie and a tux shirt.
-- Aravind
--
SLUG
PHB - Pointy Haired Bosses
from the Dilbert cartoon.
In fact today's has got the person in question
http://www.dilbert.com/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mehmet Ozdemir
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2000 18:12
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED];
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: Jon Biddell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, 7 July 2000 21:57
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] OT: Geek/Linux apparel
At 05:43 PM 7/7/00, Aravind Naidu wrote:
Hi Guys,
Is there any equivalent of ThinkGeek or Copyleft
I was reading Jon's email below, and Tux is a "him" ??
That begs the question. Is Tux gender specific ? Some of our fairer sex
colleagues might take exception to that !!
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Biddell
Sent:
The complete comment is here
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00/07/05/0211257cid=218
and makes very interesting reading.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Anand Kumria
Sent: Thursday, 6 July 2000 09:57
To: James Morris
Cc:
I actually did install ReiserFS with Mandrake 7.1 on a Thinkpad just
recently and I can't tell the difference. Everything is very smooth and good
so far. Deliberately crashed the laptop a few times and it replayed trans,
like what a normal jfs should do and there was very good restart times too.
I'm sick of people saying Red Hat is like Microsoft. Look at the facts.
Good on ya !
I looked at the mails today and could not believe it. Which knucklehead
would compare RedHat with Microsoft? It begs belief.
RedHat have made significant contribution to the overall Linux OS and
packaging
Jade is John Clark's DSSSL Engine (we pronounce DSSSL diesel, so it's
funnier when you read it out loud).
James Clark you mean The father of all XML parsers
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Problem is now that I have to down the damn thing again to add another
drive... DAMN , it's not fair.
That is when you wish Linux had a LVM built in ala AIX. (hoping for in
kernel 2.4)
Then you could have added the disk and all that without rebooting as long as
your h/w supports it.
--
On today's SMH too.
http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/0006/27/A36613-2000Jun27.shtml
They have termed it a massacre.
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of DaZZa
Sent: Wednesday, 28 June 2000 14:15
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:
Hi,
I have done a fresh install of Mandrake 7.1 and I selected the 'developer'
configuration.
Everything is fine, but I can't telnet or ftp to the laptop.
Now, assuming that the 'developer' configuration did not install or has
disabled these services, I went looking at all the usual places.
It is there. I am even trying to telnet from the same box to the same box
with "telnet localhost" and it does not work.
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: Alexander Else [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, 22 June 2000 19:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] inetd
Sent: Thursday, 22 June 2000 20:32
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] inetd problem
Aravind Naidu wrote:
Hi,
I have done a fresh install of Mandrake 7.1 and I selected the
'developer'
configuration.
Everything is fine, but I can't telnet or ftp
At last, it is official and Oz is mentioned.
IBM T20 laptops shipping with Caldera
http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4LAPZ8.html
Probably the first official shipping of brand laptops in Oz with Linux.
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To unsubscribe
To give you a slightly different perspective
To me the distribution versions are important as I do a lot of work with
commercial s/w on Linux. Right from Oracle, DB2 to WebSphere and MQ. Most of
these s/w come out on RedHat first.
At a strech I can make it work on other distributions, yes,
snip
VIA chipset?). But the install went very nicely on my notebook, including
installing with reiserfs.
Is reiserFS faster than ext2 as claimed ? Any issues with reliability ? Is
it production strength ?
-- Aravind
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au
Cool... That is strong enough for me. Having worked on AIX with LVM and JFS,
I sort of missed a journalling file system on Linux and this will nicely fit
into my gap. No more arduous fscking
I was used to min. reboot time on AIX from an abnormal shutdown and I am
looking forward to the same
I do have that link and it was splashed liberally 3-4 days back.
http://www.linuxmall.com/?4,1,249
But, then I need one now
This ann. is so good. If anyone has worked with IBM's LVM, they will know
what I mean. Add disks, move partitions around, move to center of the disk
for performance,
Damm.
Our office server is only on 262 days. That was before some idiot pulled the
power plug off... Otherwise, it would have been easily 400 odd days.
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ian Ward
Sent: Tuesday, 20 June 2000
http://dukeofurl.dhs.org/reviews/misc/mandrake71final/index.html
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It is probably more like that their support infrastructure in Oz has not
been setup to route calls for questions on Linux.
When Linux comes pre-installed, they are obliged to answer some questions if
say something does not work.
It is more like they are dragging their feet getting it up as the
Hi All,
Is there a local mirror for J2SE Linux SDK v 1.3 beta ?
-- Aravind
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We had a similar problem with a sockets application.
It has got to do with the TCP/IP stack of the client (in this MS Win) and
the server.
About 5 years back, I was having this same problem with the Firefox IP stack
on Netware going to HPUX. We never had problems going from Firefox to AIX,
but
Good on you
Did you purchase this with EvilWare and blow it away, or with
Linux (or no
OS ?)
I was about to plonk down a sizable slab of discretionary income for a
Gateway 9300XLS (15.3" screen, 18Gb HD, 256Mb RAM) and had an
argument with
them about the old Windows licencing
Hi,
Can I put RH 6.2 on a ThinkPad iSeries on suspend mode ?
If so, how do I do it ?
Currently it powers off.
It worked fine with the "other" OS.
-- Aravind
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I have sort of started it part time on Linux and mainly on the WML side of
things.
I am experimenting with 2 application servers on Linux, Resin Enhydra.
http://www.enhydra.org
http://www.caucho.com
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL
http://www.linuxgames.com/articles/comparison/
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Sigh!!! These things are getting easier.
Having not installed Linux for a while now, I was given an IBM iSeries
Thinkpad to experiment with. I went to the nearest NewsAgency got a PC World
with the free RH 6.2 disk, and voila, 20 minutes later, I was chugging along
on the LAN, dialing up, X at
snip
I also noticed no telnetd, or inetd running and no
inetd.conf in the /etc directory...is this normal for linux sorry
I'm used to unix
telnetd runs on demand. On my machine with RH6.2, a telnet connection put
this in the process list.
in.telnetd: ipaddress
No
inetd isn't the only option. There's also xinetd and rlinetd. rlinetd
uses a different type of config file(s). Then there's tcpserver from
Dan Bernstein's ucspi-tcp package. You run one invocation of tcpserver
for each service you wish to support.
None of these are available with a fresh
snip
In a fresh Red Hat 6.2 workstation class installation, as opposed to
6.1 and earlier, inetd is not installed. You need to choose a custom
installation or server class installation to get inetd.
Ah!! That explains it. I never do select those options, always do custom.
-- Aravind
--
The client Java implementation available at
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/DAV4J
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 23 May 2000 13:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SLUG] Alternative to
snip
If you do it with a sledge hammer, I might redistribute my parking
place for my kichen knives to under your rib cage {:-).
The fact that Microsoft has tried to sledge hammer html into email,
invites a similar response.
No, not true. Microsoft was using RTF (modified version) and when
Hi all,
A request. If you are replying to posts, please don't do "reply all", as I
end up with 2 messages in my mail box for a message that I have posted.
It would be proper etiquette to just reply back to the slug mailing list
address for any post and the poster can pick up the reply from
Hi,
Was it "kdevelop" ??
Now, I am incredibly curious to know what it is .
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rick Welykochy
Sent: Monday, 22 May 2000 13:22
To: George Vieira
Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE:
snip
on top off this if we had a different mail protocol for formatting
of email (to make it pretty) we had no troubles at all
You mean an formatter, not a protocol...
What is wrong with HTML for prettying up your mail ? It is the universal
standard and any half decent browser
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Terry
Collins
Sent: Monday, 22 May 2000 15:28
To: slug
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] Pcmcia Troubles
Aravind Naidu wrote:
snip
on top off this if we had a different mail protocol for formatting
of email (to make it pretty) we
snip
The one that I've seen most often is through wu-ftpd. You can prevent
it by installing the updated version on the web site just mentioned.
You could always ask Adam Todd.
{snarfle}
He's an expert you know.
A has-been drip under pressure? We all know that.
Can anyone post
My combination is a Digital VP 745 with a Xircom card.
Have installed Mandrake and RedHat. Works like a charm. Currently with
Mandrake.
The crystal sound device is recognised, display is at 1024x768 with NeoMagic
and the Xircom 56 CEM card works straight out of the box.
In fact the Mandrake
It is all official folks and this news has had extensive coverage in the
mainstream press abroad.
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-05-17-010-04-NW-HE-SV
I have talked to some mainframe folks here who are very excited in bring new
life to their old hardware.
-- Aravind
--
SLUG
or
www.optushome.com.au
thanks,
George Vieira
Network Administrator
Citadel Computer Systems P/L
http://www.citadelcomputer.com.au
-Original Message-
From: Aravind Naidu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, 15 May 2000 1:53 PM
To: slug
Subject: RE: [SLUG] Optus using Linux now
Weird...
www.optus.com is not available at my DNS (ozemail).
Netcraft says that www.optus.com.au is using Netscape on Solaris, thought
that could be their firewall server on Solaris.
http://www.netcraft.com/whats/?host=www.optus.com.au
Tracing to this IP leads to Telstra ??
Tracing route to
http://www.netcraft.com/survey/
--
Does anyone know the link to the marketshare of OSes for Web Servers ?
There was a public link to it on the Netcraft site, but I couldn't locate
it. They have started charging for some surveys like the SSL ones.
-- Aravind
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux Users
I got this in the mail. Might be of interest to some folks.
Webcast on 17 May: What's New with Linux at IBM
http://webevents.broadcast.com/ibm/linux1/home.tl?loc=12
Join a Web broadcast on May 17 to hear about what
IBM is offering with Linux today, and the role of
Linux in the next
They do this "in order to do stuff" like set the clock, install
programs, etc.
Microsoft have only lately realised that people running Windows
NT on a single
user box don't have the ability to change credentials (like sudo allows)
easily.
At last Win2K has the ability to right click on a
At last Win2K has the ability to right click on a program and do
"Run as".
So, you no longer have to be an "Administrator".
No doubt another of M$'s innovation over Unix. :-) sudo? What's sudo? :-)
Yeah!! I was trying to remember when I started doing sudo on Unix, and it
was so far back
At last Win2K has the ability to right click on a program and do
"Run as".
So, you no longer have to be an "Administrator".
No doubt another of M$'s innovation over Unix. :-) sudo? What's sudo?
:-)
Yeah!! I was trying to remember when I started doing sudo on
Unix, and it
Try Lotus Notes/Domino Server instead of Exchange/Outlook.
At least Domino Server runs on Linux and you can it free for dev purposes on
Linux.
http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/dominomailserver
-- Aravind
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au
To
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: DaZZa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, 4 May 2000 22:30
To: Aravind Naidu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] Calendaring options
On Thu, 4 May 2000, Aravind Naidu wrote:
Try Lotus Notes/Domino Server instead of Exchange
Here is the BBC story on it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_736000/736080.stm
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 4 May 2000 23:03
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SLUG] OT but warning
Brand new IBM JDK 1.3 for Linux, for those that are interested.
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/linuxjdk
-- Aravind
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I'd like to know the viability of starting a large e-commerce
project using the IBM kit.
IBM provide a host of features to do this in a open systems kind of way.
Currently the servlet engine version level on Linux is lower than NT, but it
is soon to be fixed.
One to watch out for is that if
: Re: [SLUG] W2K Server [OT]
Aravind Naidu wrote:
My impressions : Win2K is way more stable than NT, but still
not in the same
league as my Linux and AIX boxes.
Win2K professional is more stable than NT workstation.
Win2K server is way less stable than NT server.
Active Directory
They are probably talking about Tivoli.
Sometimes it is nice to do it all from one console rather than telnetting to
different machines.
Managing is also about automatic alertion and paging etc.., so that the
"distributed network system" can page you as an administrator when it is in
trouble.
: Wednesday, 19 April 2000 14:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SLUG] IBM ad
Aravind Naidu wrote:
They are probably talking about Tivoli.
Sometimes it is nice to do it all from one console rather than
telnetting to
different machines.
Managing is also about
RFC1208 says:
big-endian: A format for storage or transmission of binary data in
which the most significant bit (or byte) comes first. The reverse
convention is called little-endian.
Normally people think of computer architectures when endianess is
mentioned, but the definition above
snip
Thats one of the major reasons why I don't use Star Office or Corel. At
least Applix Ware's format is XML (I am told) which will still be
readable in 10 years time.
The advantage of a markup format such as LaTeX, XML, lout, Troff etc is
that your documents can always be read either by
snip
I've been waiting for this to dawn on people for a while.
It doesn't even have to be obfuscated. As long as the conceptual
document models are different, and the restrictions on item placement
imposed by the various rendering engines aren't taken into account,
you still won't be able
My response is ... "Good on them".
At least there is more competition on the office productivity front for
Linux. At the end of the day, I really don't care how they do it as long as
it is functional, stable and gives users an alternative to M$.
If you look at the history of these beasts, they
snip
As someone said on the forum, (well not quite in these words), they
have now put the family jewels in a vice controlled by MS (win32 api).
Even IBM pulled out of that game.
They will slowly convert it to an open API. I believe it partialy uses the
posix api and for the modules that
snip
I think there are (at least?) 3 ways of managing state information:
* URL rewriting (small amount of state information is attached to
the URL -
the advantage of this is that all browsers support it)
* Cookies (quite popular method - but requires cooperation from user -
ie.
snip
MySQL is small, fast and stable. But it is not a full blown database
system such as IBM DB2 etc
It can not do 'rollbacks' but since neither can the the web, who
cares???
I am shocked (Pause to collect myself). You need transactions
(rollbacks) for various reasons, as Rick has
There is another /. discussion on Linux in schools that started off today.
http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/00/03/06/0054217.shtml
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: Aravind Naidu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, 6 March 2000 23:19
To: Greg; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE
Extra lists might look something like this
slug-general . A general discussion group for all things linux
+1
slug-hardware. A discussion list for hardware related issues
+1
slug-server .. For those running servers for fun and/or profit
-1
slug-desktop With kde on the
Some links to get you started.
http://www.ltsp.org/
http://www.slug.org.au/etherboot/
http://www.disklessworkstations.com/
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeff Waugh
Sent: Saturday, 11 March 2000 13:27
To: [EMAIL
khttpd is an absolute must if you want to thrash Microsoft IIS on benchmarks
!!!
Having put that aside, I can see khttp's use everywhere, even if it is only
for 20% perf improvement. If I can improve anything by 20% I am game.
The real trick is to make the administration simple. You don't want
All in all more good news for Linux.
About 2 weeks back I posted a article on what software IBM is giving away at
'no charge'. In these Internet years, the pace of change has changed.
Since then, the amt. of stuff coming out of IBM is quite amazing.
In my day job I have to interact with a lot
It may be that these are threads inside the wine module. Linux
maps threads
to individual process's
does it?? with the same or different pids? (and same or different
to the pid of the parent/main process?)
Yes, it does. I am not quite sure about the pids. When I have some free
time, I
Guys,
can you all take this OT. Some of us will be very grateful.
;-)
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Terry Collins
Sent: Thursday, 9 March 2000 14:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Matthew Dalton; Jon Biddell
Subject:
-Original Message-
From: Adrian van den Dries [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, 8 March 2000 13:33
To: Aravind Naidu
Cc: slug; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [SLUG] CDROM
Either I'm hearing voices, or Aravind Naidu wrote on 27/02/00:
fuser /mnt/cdrom
will give
IT person and needs some ammo.
thanks
Aravind Naidu wrote:
http://slashdot.org/features/00/03/03/033231.shtml
All our schools should be doing this and then we have a new
generation of
people coming out whose expectations on technology are a whole lot
different.
http://slashdot.org/features/00/03/03/033231.shtml
All our schools should be doing this and then we have a new generation of
people coming out whose expectations on technology are a whole lot
different.
-- Aravind
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux Users Group Mailing List - http://www.slug.org.au
To
It has been well over 3 years since SGI adopted Intel processors. This was
to mainly counter the cheap workstation market that the local chop shop can
sell with NT installed.
They came out with NT initially, and towards the middle of last year they
offered Linux on them.
Rumor has it that it
I have to say, comparing NT/95 to Linux reliability wise is a no contest.
But Win2000 has improved things a bit, but I am not quite sure it is in the
Linux/Unix arena yet. Have to wait see. ( I have now run Win2000 for a
month heavily without crashing on the same spec h/w as NT and it is an
We can take this offline in order not to trouble the rest of the people on
this list with Win2K stuff...
snip
Aravind: regarding Windows 2000, what is your estimate of a reasonable
amount of the following resources to run Word/Excel (i.e. Office)
plus email and a web browser and suffer no
snip
I can use Commonwealth Securities (part of CBA - www.comsec.com.au) fine
from netscape on any platform (well solaris and linux I've used).
For banking, I use my credit union's phone banking service.
The main CBA service is a windows gui and they move to a browser based
service this
SMP - Symmetric Mutli Processing
SMP ability is the capability of the kernel to handle 2 or more processors
accessing the same memory space and other I/O resources at the same time on
your machine.
Linux started out handling only one processor on the PC and grew to have SMP
capabilities. The
Your samba programs are holding the mounted directory open and therefore the
device driver will not allow you to unmount the resource.
The easiest way to find out who is accessing files in a filesystem is to use
the command 'fuser'
fuser /mnt/cdrom
will give you all pid's accessing files on
Free developer's kit of IBM/Lotus s/w for Linux
http://www2.software.ibm.com/news/news.nsf/n/rhyn4g5lkq
For anyone who is interested.
-- Aravnd
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More OT!!!
Do we really need sigs ? You can see who it is from the sender's address
anyway. I personally think sigs are overrated.
!sig
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Adam Kennedy
Sent: Thursday, 24 February 2000 22:38
To: [EMAIL
My experiences.
I had to install W2K a couple of days back and I must say I am impressed.
Having had to install NT4 on my laptop before, I always had problems with
hardware and ports. But, with W2K the installation was painless and it
has'nt crashed yet
Well, at least it is at the same
I think these web pages will amuse a lot of people.
http://www.microsoft.eu.org
http://www.microsoft.eu.org/linux/
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Try
http://www.htdig.org/
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Howard Lowndes
Sent: Monday, 21 February 2000 10:40
To: Mail List - SLUG; Mail List - CLUG
Subject: [SLUG] A search engine
Can anyone offer some ideas on a
Hotmail has a mix of FreeBSD and Suns .
Running netcraft's lookup on Hotmail now will return
www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.3.6 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.8
SSLeay/0.9.0b on FreeBSD
They tried to move to NT and failed. Microsoft put out this
gobbledegook to inform the rest of the world.
The long awaited production release of the Java2 SDK for Linux is out.
http://www.javasoft.com/products/jdk/1.2/download-linux.html
Now, I can go around talking to PHB's to put in Linux machines.
-- Aravind
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To
An amusing activity from a LUG
http://www.svlug.org/events/launch2000.shtml
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I agree. Mandrake seems to very good at detection. In fact I am so
confident with it, the last couple of installs on some new machines I
did not even bother to note down the hardware details at all. Just let
the Mandrake installer do its stuff.
Really neat with Mandrake 7 is DiskDrake and the X
You probably have an alias setup in your shell that aliases rm to
'rm -i' and that the reason why it is prompting.
You can either remove the aliase or use "/usr/bin/rm -rf *" to
delete everything while keeping the alias.
-- Aravind
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This article might be of interest to some.
http://www-4.ibm.com/software/developer/library/thinclients.html
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This is a test. Please delete.
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Updated info on 2.4 kernel
http://linuxtoday.com/stories/15936.html
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Hey, was I glad to see some assembler. Gave me flashbacks to good 'ol
days.
Another way to blow the MBR is again to use the write command in debug
I haven't done this in a long time, but I think it goes somewhat like
this
A:debug
-W 100 80 0 17
The above command writes all data at address 100
Lane, Unix Specialist
EDS Australia - Core Infrastrcture - Software Services Asia Pacific
EDS Phone:(+61 2) 931 26097
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-Original Message-
From: Aravind Naidu [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:49 PM
To: Sydney
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is best to think of IBM as being a coalition
of separate divisions that are both competing with each other, but
also working together. Like a trail of those eucalptus
caterpillars in
some respects.
This was probably the decsion of a division VP, if it was that
I am really looking forward to this. It is a pity they could not
release the LVM (logical volume manager) also as they are tied up with
some licensing issues.
The LVM with JFS is the best volume/filesystem in the Unix
marketplace. You can do almost impossible things without shutting down
the
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