In the spirit of being hacked/cracked, and of Jeff and Ken's one liner
links:
"Cracked! The story of a community network that was cracked and what was
done to recover from it."
http://rootprompt.org/article.php3?article=635
(this is part 7, but parts 1-6 are linked at the top)
But wait, there's
Russell Davies wrote:
; dnscache is not free software.
it certainly is free software. I suggest you review your facts.
By what I've read on http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/dist.html, it would not be
free software according to the DFSG*, which is most likely Danny's point
of reference.
Matthew
*
Mehmet Ozdemir wrote:
I see this PHB everwhere, can someone please tell me what is stands for ?
Sure can:
(P)ointy
(H)aired
(B)oss
http://www.dilbert.com
:)
Matthew
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Jeff Waugh wrote:
Thank you for walking right into the crossfire of one of my pet niggles
(read: absolute guarantee of frustration, potentially causing nuclear
meltdown).
IT SHOULD BE "SITE"
Hehe...
One of my pet hates is the use of 'loose' instead of 'lose'.
Matt wrote:
I tried to send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it seems like the Optushome
Postmaster denied it ... read on ..
Actually .. i'll be suprised if this gets through
Regards, Matt
-- Forwarded Message --
[snip!]
Because my connection is fast and
Herbert Xu wrote:
Rodos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am going to give Debian a try and was wondering if there was a new
version out soon. The current seams to be 2.2 Beta R2 Potato. I will get
it if there is not going to be another one in the next few months.
Actually we'll be starting
Jill Rowling wrote:
Regarding the Adaptec software, I would be surprised if it could NOT create
a CD from an image. After all, there are lots of people ripping CDs for
various purposes...
Easy CD coaster creator can write an image to a CD. Doesn't seem to be
the most reliable software for
Herbert Xu wrote:
Matthew Dalton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I installed potato on my machine last week. Actually I'm still
installing it, because I did the whole thing over the net with a 33.6
modem connection :) . I think I've downloaded, besides the ~25Mb
That's what cable
Angus Lees wrote:
On Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 10:19:11AM +1000, Dave Fitch wrote:
Also, if there's any debianites reading this, is there a
good simple doc somewhere that explains (in simple terms)
what the debian pkg system is about and how to use it?
install doc-debian and flick through
Forgot to cc the list...
Original Message
Subject: Re: [SLUG] mounting off a loop device in 2.2.12
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:14:57 +1000
From: Matthew Dalton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Marshall, Joshua" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Marshall
Pearl-whore...
Aussie wrote:
So, in theory, by being verbose and wordy and adding in a lot of superflous,
redundant and unneeded yet perfectly relevant content to your email, you can
gain a higher ranking in the SLUG Pearls?
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Jeff Waugh wrote:
From "The Man" himself (who's an Emacs kinda guy),
Really?? Anthony Mundine uses Emacs?
I thought he was a vi guy... :P
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That oughta look good in the next Pearls.
Conrad Parker wrote:
DISGRUNTLED LINUX USERS "FIX" OZ GOVT, MAKE WORLD BETTER PLACE
SLUGWIRE Mon Jul 3 12:22:01 EST 2000
Exploiting a "hole" in the Australian Tax Office meta-process, users
of the Linux computer operating system today bombarded
Jobst Schmalenbach wrote:
Filesystem 1k-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda1 178533159643 9671 94% /
You shouldnt have it all on one filesystem though, cause if
the logs fill up (syn attach etc) you can log on anymore, instead do
Peter Rundle wrote:
That is actually a deliberate and very slimy "inovation" by M$
of the HTML standard. Guess which web page editor is "broken" and
doesn't put in /table tags, -- Front Page. Now guess which browser
is able to format pages properly even though the tag is missing.
Yeah,
Michael Lake wrote:
Dean Hamstead wrote:
Is there a command in vi or somesuch standard cli editor to search and
replace
in my case change all ".org" entries to ".com" in the dns files
im sure awk or seomthing can do it also
cat your_dns_file | sed 's/\.org/\.com/' new_dns_file
Rodos wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Matt Allen wrote:
Now,
If we could just write a script that automatically judges an email on
Quality of Answer .
H ...
Some huristics on the amount of new text added. How much of
the previous mail was cropped (people who don't crop by
Matthew Dalton wrote:
If you use the words
RedHat and desktop you loose points.
If you use the incorrect form of 'lose', you lose points.
I forgot to add - if you correct someones grammar, you lose points.
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Alexander Else
cant stand to see us having
just a little fun
Alexander Else wrote:
man what a bad joke
hope this thread is gonna die
sooner the better
At 03:31 PM 6/26/00 +1000, Matthew Dalton wrote:
IRC haiku
never thought I'd see the day
poets on my screen
:)
--
Alexander
You could probably write some Outlook VBScript to dump the email to a
text file in mbox format. That would mean learning VBScript though.
I don't know the capabilities of Outlook's VBScript, but given what
we've seen possible from the recent virus/trojan horse attacks, I'd say
its most likely
Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
You basically have two options:
1) run sendmail
2) use procmail to deliver mail which means the mail will end up
in your local mbox instead of /var/spool/mail. Have a look at
the fetchmail man page for this option.
Unfortunately neither of these
IRC haiku
never thought I'd see the day
poets on my screen
:)
Jeff Waugh wrote:
Hi all,
I just partook in a funny IRC episode with jwz and Raph... Someone will get
some giggles out of this:
http://www.slug.org.au/jwzhaiku.html
jwz was talking about some firewall
Terry Collins wrote:
I have a query as to how partitioning works under Debian and Corel
Linux (a Debian variation?).
In the installation of Corel Linux, the partitioning facility doesn't
allow you to specify a mount point for existing partitions, or specify
filesystem type for new
DaZZa wrote:
I've run both. SuSE 6.4 is now my distribution of choice - I was Redhat a
long time {since V3, I think}, but the latest efforts from Redhat _suck_.
And again, with the next release, they plan to change everything to yet
another version of GlibC - so there'll be no upgrading -
David Sainty wrote:
I've also never had a successful RH upgrade. It has always required a
complete re-install. So now I usually partition off what I want to
keep and install the new stuff as needed.
Interesting. I have now successfully upgraded a server with very very
little pain
Jon Biddell wrote:
Then I get
an email asking if I would like a full copy of ApplixWare 5.0 free of
charge. Naturally, I said YES.
I still have to receive it, but that's not something that Redhat (or many
other Linux or non-linux) companies would be prepared to do.
Hehe... On an
Padmini Naidu wrote:
What is the state of Mozilla? I was reading through the postings on slashdot
and it seems the people are far from happy about the slowness of releases
and features. Does anyone know when thew final release is due, Ive heard
many people say 'when its ready', but its been
Ben Donohue wrote:
mkswap /dev/hda3
setting up swapspace version 0, size = 103215104 bytes
swapon -a
swapon: /dev/hda3: device or resource busy.
fstab has swap in /dev/hda3. this is where swap was origionally.
reboot again but swap failing
always busy when swapon /dev/hda3 is typed as
It's still O'Reilly, but the Perl CD Bookshelf is pretty good value if
you don't mind reading it on your computer (you could always print bits
out). You get 6 books on cd (Learning Perl, Learning Perl on Win32,
Programming Perl, Advanced Perl Programming, Perl Cookbook and Perl in a
Nutshell)
Anthony Rumble wrote:
On 1 Jun 2000, Herbert Xu wrote:
Simon Bryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have a file of:
username:password
I want to be able to regularly generate a file from this of just the usernames,
cut -d : -f 1
Proving yet again.. theres always at least 15 ways
Jeffrey Borg wrote:
I find search engines quite useless unless you the search term exactly
right, and when I am looking for something very specific on the www I
usually come up with nothing because of this.
Do you use Google? http://www.google.com
I can not give any examples of this because
Rev Simon Rumble wrote:
To demonstrate, have a listen to:
http://www.rumble.net/stuff/test.wav
(recorded in xwave)
This seems quite similar to the problem someone had recording the SLUG
interview off the radio. What was the problem there?
That was me...
It turned out to be a download
I have two questions (below)...
Michael Lake wrote:
I am doing this:
-
#!/usr/bin/perl
use CGI qw/:standard/;
[snip]
# This method creates meta data format then converts to a
small gif.
system("graph -L 'Mono-molecular
Rick Welykochy wrote:
Matthew Dalton wrote:
system("graph -L 'Mono-molecular Reaction' -X Time -Y
'Concentration' /tmp/data | /tmp/temp.meta");
system("plot -T gif /tmp/temp.meta | /tmp/order1.gif");
Is there a security risk with a call such as this?
You're
How about:
TOTAL=0
:
:
if [ "$TEST" -gt "2" ]
then
TOTAL=$(($TOTAL + 1))
fi
done
if [ "$TOTAL" -gt "4" ]
then
do stuff here...
fi
Is that more what you were after?
Matthew
Rick Welykochy wrote:
Sadly, nothing appears except the banner ad in Netscape.
Must be missing a /table tag :-(
Works okay in Mozilla M15 (WinNT). Mozilla/Linux is most likely the
same.
Matthew
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"Grahame M. Kelly" wrote:
Works okay in Mozilla M15 (WinNT). Mozilla/Linux is most likely the
same.
It also works OK with Netscape 4.72 (under SuSE 6.3/6.4).
Grahame
Interestingly, it didn't work in Netscape 4.72/WinNT, which is why I
tried it in Mozilla.
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If you just hit "reply", the message doesn't get cc'd to the list. So
everyone just hits "reply all".
What you want is for people to manually edit the to and cc lists, which
just aint gonna happen.
Maybe whoever is looking after the list these days should set the
reply-to field... but then
James Wilkinson wrote:
What you want is for people to manually edit the to and cc lists, which
just aint gonna happen.
*cough*
# apt-get install mutt
:
Very easy.
Sure. Unless you're running Windows NT.
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To
DaZZa wrote:
Sure. Unless you're running Windows NT.
And you _admit_ it on the SLUG list?
I'm at work, dude. Some of us don't have a choice. I'm sure I'm not the
only one.
I use Linux/Mutt at home... but I'm not subscribed to SLUG through my
home email address.
Matthew
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DaZZa wrote:
I'm at work, dude. Some of us don't have a choice. I'm sure I'm not the
only one.
You're not, but I don't admit it. :-) :-)
I don't see a problem with admitting it. It's not like I'm using it for
fun.
I use Linux/Mutt at home... but I'm not subscribed to SLUG through my
For those who are interested,
This months PC World magazine comes with a copy of RH6.2 on cd, as well
as the installable-from-windows variety of BeOS 5.
Matthew
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Jobst Schmalenbach wrote:
In the light of all the virus troubles (and save the running virus checkers some
time)
wouldnt it be feasable if people are asked to only post "text based" mail to
the user group???
What virus troubles?
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Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not.
The one that I played with for all of 2 minutes after installing RH6.2
on my brothers computer last night, was called Glade.
http://glade.pn.org/
George Vieira wrote:
Actually , I think it is. That certainly rings a bell (ding..dong..you
raaanng).
I
Ken Yap wrote:
Yes, Linux seems to be doing well in the server arena, it's up to 24% or
something like that and its market share is predicted to grow faster than
all the other OSes combined until 2003. Think it was at linuxtoday.com
that I saw the URL to this report.
Not to mention the rise
James Wilkinson wrote:
On Fri, 12 May 2000, Alex generated:
Wayne wrote:
void log_msg(char *fmt, ...)
{
FILE *fd = fopen("/tmp/mylog", "a");
va_list arglist;
va_start(arglist, fmt);
vfprintf(fd, fmt, arglist);
fclose(fd);
There's one here:
http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Net-HOWTO-6.html
Don't know how up to date it is, but the howto itself was last updated
22/3/2000.
Matthew
Terry Collins wrote:
Does anyone have the url to the list of linux supported network cards
handy?
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}}
Hi Alex,
Unfortunately I can't help you with your PQExec call, but maybe I can
offer you a suggestion. Instead of causing the cgi program to 'crash'
with exit(), why not print an error message or the return code out in
HTML and then end the html in the usual way (ie /BODY/HTML) before
calling
Dean Hamstead wrote:
infact i beleive Mr Hack (dont laugh) may infact be the head honcho. Im
Don't laugh indeed! My mother once had a dentist by this name!!!
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We need a decent sized advert in the SMH (or some other well known
newspaper) that reaches out to those who have been affected by this
virus and informs them of the alternatives available to them, that are
not susceptible to the virus (ie Linux).
It should also be an open invitation to the next
Ken Yap wrote:
Decent sized adverts in the dead tree press are very expensive. Might be
easier to put out a press release on the web site, saying something like
"we would like to assure users of Linux and similar OSes like *ix and
*BSD that AFAWK there are no vulnerabilities in *x mail
Andrew Macks wrote:
I think pushing Linux on to workstations using this virus as a guide is a
little hard to do.
That's why I thought we could follow it up with presentations at the
SLUG meetings. We can focus on anything we like, not just the virus
thing.
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Rick Welykochy wrote:
I've been asked by a reporter from ComputerWorld to comment on
(*) Microsoft's culpability in this virus stuff
(*) whether other O/S's are affected in the same way
(*) what measures MS should be taking to help in the future
I will be formulating my reply to the
Terry Collins wrote:
Complete and total waste of money. Why take funds for promoting Linux
and give them to dead-tree sellers?
It was only a suggestion. One intended to get a discussion going on how
we could use the recent happenings to our advantage. I'm certainly not
going to push it any
Terry Collins wrote:
I agree with Ken that dead-tree adds are very expensive.
They are also fleeting and in a very competitive market and for the
concept you are advancing, very hard to get the message across.
I also agree with both of you on these points.
"SLUG" could even take the
Dave Fitch wrote:
more importantly than the "support" reason is that they insist on
installing their ethernet card in your machine
So does that mean that laptop owners can't get O@H either? Or will they
provide a pcmcia ethernet card if asked?
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... from a Linux newbie
(who's just finished setting up sendmail):
Isn't that an oxymoron?
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Paul Haddon wrote:
Surely you've seen the movie? If you have, I'd have thought the answer
would have been obvious...
"Practically Perfect in Every Way"
Damn! I was sure the answer was "Just a spoonful of sugar makes the
medicine go down"!
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Jason Lowe wrote:
Computer 1:
* ppp0: 203.x.x.121 (Direct connection to Telstra Big Pond)
* eth0: 203.x.x.123
Ummm... you shouldn't be using the 203.x.x.x range on your internal
interfaces. There are designated ranges especially for this -
192.168.x.x is the one that I use. This could be
Can you still mount normal CD-ROM's in your IDE drives (both the
read-only and the writer)?
What device are you using to access them?
Do the kernel messages that are displayed when you boot up show anything
about your cdrom devices?
What is the output of the command 'dmesg'?
In my system, my
Robert Smith wrote:
after 20 tries using the above books as resource material I have yet to
succeed.
You will have to recompile your kernel to use the IDE-SCSI driver with
your cdrom instead of the normal IDE driver. The CD writing howto that
you have covers how to do this (see section 2).
Woah... hold up there.
We should be encouraging companies to provide Linux solutions for their
products, not jumping down their throats for it.
I don't like software modems much either, but people do buy them. Some
of these people also want to install Linux and are not at all impressed
when
Alexander Else wrote:
int, floor and ceil are your friends. int simply lops off anything after
the decimal point, floor rounds down, ceil rounds up. if you wish to
intelligently round (ie. 3.7 becomes 4, 3.2 becomes 3) then something like
$var=sprintf("%.0f", $var); is what you want.
Rev Simon Rumble wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Matthew Dalton wrote:
Well, to me it would be reasonable for them to just say "You can have
13k/sec upstream bandwidth. Do what you like with it."
However by doing that they would degrade the downstream performance.
Upstream
John Clarke wrote:
This is one point where we differ. I cannot see any advantage in looking
like a Windows box, and since this *is* a Linux list, I suspect the vast
majority agree with *me* :-)
Oh please...
I'm sure he didn't mean that the Linux box would return "NT 4.0 sp3 /
IIS 4.0" if
Adam Jenkins wrote:
You must be running a different version of Windows 9x to everyone
else if it isn't running any services. At the very least it
runs daytime, and probably WINS etc too.
Fair enough... I'm no windows expert.
I was more thinking of traditionally insecure services such as
Aussie wrote:
If this is the case, is there any way to limit the outgoing speed for
connections through Linux?
Doesn't Linux have a traffic shaper that does this?
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One thing that I don't have straight in my mind...
When Optus says 'no servers', does this mean 'no servers for use by the
outside world' or does it mean 'no servers for use by your internal lan'
(ie masquerading)... or perhaps both?
Jamie Honan wrote:
The issue comes about because you may
Rick Welykochy wrote:
It's all related to licencing or in the above case, contractual
agreements. This might seem unlrelated, but Microsoft actually tell you
what you can and cannot do with their software, as another example.
You *cannot* run MS products on any O/S besides Windows,
Nelson N wrote:
When Optus says 'no servers', does this mean 'no servers for use by the
outside world' or does it mean 'no servers for use by your internal lan'
(ie masquerading)... or perhaps both?
is this question meant to be serious?
Of course it is!
if so, since when do isps
Nelson N wrote:
you misunderstood the context of my message, it was meant to be purely in
reply to "no servers for use by your internal lan", my comments seem logical
now?
You misunderstood my meaning of the word 'server'. I meant on that is
masquerading the cable link for use by the
Endian-ness is not the arrangement of the bits, but rather of the bytes
within a multi-byte type.
For a 4 byte type (such as int on a 32 bit machine):
byte A is bits 7-0
byte B is bits 15-8
byte C is bits 23-16
byte D is bits 31-24
Little-endian would arrange this in memory as ABCD
low
I asked almost exactly the same question on this list a few months ago.
It produced a rather interesting thread (if I do say so myself) that
yielded a few suggestions, but no concrete way of doing it.
You can find it at
http://www.woa.com.au/lists/slug/1999/199911/index.html
Anand's slug archive
James Morris wrote:
Although, I suppose MS Word format is great for "seamlessly integrating"
press releases into IT news stories.
I think I read somewhere that plain text is pretty good for that, too.
Matthew
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To
I had to use Outlook at a previous job (this was before my own personal
Linux revolution), and I would immediately change my preferences so that
Word was not the default editor. It would take about 5 times longer to
load, for starters. Most of the other people in the office didn't seem
to care
"Canon - We don't just do printers."
Rev Simon Rumble wrote:
We work with Linux and other Open Source software.
So why doesn't Canon release Linux and other Open Source operating system
drivers? Or at the very least, have a list of Canon products that have
drivers written by other
Adam Kennedy wrote:
Well, can you provide a bit more information?
Are there quotes?
What does a typical line look like
Below is fine except you want to turn
$1,$2,$3
into $1,$2$3
Well no, because that would be removing the second comma, not the third
one.
Unless there are
I don't think that this would work when there are more than 4 items in
each record.
Carlo doesn't mention how many fields he has.
Ken Yap wrote:
perl -ne 'split(/,/,$_,4); print "$_[0],$_[1],$_[2]$_[3]";'
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the database with
windows partitions mounted.
Gregg
Matthew Dalton wrote:
Can anyone tell me why cron would be using 50% of the cpu time?
Granted, it's on a 486DX33 with the 2nd level cache ripped out of the
m/b :)
Matthew
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Now that you mention it, that's probably what happened.
Maybe cron is trying to play catchup?
Ken Yap wrote:
Can anyone tell me why cron would be using 50% of the cpu time?
Granted, it's on a 486DX33 with the 2nd level cache ripped out of the
m/b :)
I've seen this happen when I
Can anyone tell me why cron would be using 50% of the cpu time?
Granted, it's on a 486DX33 with the 2nd level cache ripped out of the
m/b :)
Matthew
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The Dweller wrote:
I have Redhat installed. I'm interested in installing debian as well. Has
anyone done this, does anyone have any pointers or information that i should
be aware of?
I've done this with 3 or 4 different distros at once. Just make sure you
only install Lilo from one of
I've seen a dvipdf program that converts to a pdf file. It's not Word,
but it may satsify those Win* users anyway.
Terry Collins wrote:
Me again {:-)
now to do something really practical with Latex; How do people pass
their resumes in Latex to the outside world? i.e. what format do you
Andrew Reilly wrote:
If you want an ultra-secure anonymous (only) ftp server, Dan
Bernstein (of qmail fame) has written one. It doesn't allow _any_
external command execution, and doesn't need to, because it has cd
and ls functions built in.
It's called anonftpd, if anyone is interested.
Howard Lowndes wrote:
I think you are going to have to face up to upgrading the whole of your
RH.
Whoah, dude
I think Peter could at least try getting the source for the latest
version (or even the SRPM) and compiling it on his current system,
before contemplating an entire upgrade for
I tend to use wget for ftp downloads these days. Netscape ftp download
is dodgy (especially for tar.gz/tgz files).
I don't know what's going on with your Netscape, but I'd suggest using
wget instead. It even supports resuming partially completed downloads.
Matthew
Peter Vogel wrote:
I tried
Cantanker wrote:
for i in"Delays.include.orc"\
"Effects.Header.orc"\
"HRTF_Stereo.include.orc" \
"HRTF_parameters.include.orc" \
There is only one Gerald Holmes... thank god.
Seriously though, its pretty obvious that this is taking the piss out of
MS advocates everywhere -- and its a funny read as well.
Terry Collins wrote:
http://www.freeyellow.com:8080/members7/geraldholmes/
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Daniel Baird wrote:
and run sshd with the -d (debug) switch. that should give you more info on
why its not working.
as far as I know, hosts.allow and hosts.deny are only used if you're using
tcpwrappers.
The ssh source, at least for SSH version 1, contains tcpwrappers, which
can
Nick,
Is the CD-R drive and IDE or a SCSI?
If its IDE, most likely you'll have to do a kernel recompile before
it'll work.
Find out what you have to do by reading the howto:
http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/CD-Writing-HOWTO.html
I don't have any experience with SCSI drives (mine is IDE), but the
Here 'tis:
http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/LinuxMyths.asp
Chuck Dale wrote:
Wrote Jon Biddell on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 07:42:54AM +1100:
the "Linux Myths" pages which Microsoft put up on its website.
Do you have the URL - I need a good laugh at the moment (office
I've got a Kodak IDE CDRW and it works great with Linux (including with
CD-RW discs).
You have to compile SCSI support into your kernel and compile out ATAPI
IDE support to make it work though, but this would be for any IDE CD-R
drive, not just CD-RW ones (see the CD-Writing HOWTO -
(resent after bounce...)
Jeff Waugh wrote:
I was discussing my proposal with aforementioned PHB and a partner
in the business (who owns a domain name and thus believes he is Al
Gore's chosen one), and during the discussion on integration with
NT, I did in fact refer to it as our legacy
Terry Collins wrote:
Now they are teaching you guys to program before you leave the place
and it's not that little turtle thing anymore?
Well, I did a computing subject in Year 9 (1989) and we learnt
programming in Basic on the school's Microbees! We were lucky to have a
teacher that
LOGO is cool... I even have it on my RH5.2 box at home :)
Alexander Else wrote:
Terry Collins wrote:
Now they are teaching you guys to program before you leave the place
and it's not that little turtle thing anymore?
Hey now, don't be dissing LOGO ;) I taught myself that when i was...
Great idea, dude!
Angus Lees wrote:
i've been meaning to do a talk on "little languages", and since we
just had a (very) mini awk/perl flame, now's as good as ever ;)
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Dave Fitch wrote:
Matthew Dalton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
how's that work exactly?
I can't see how if you can see it on the tv, you can't tape it off
the tv - ie. not from the DVD player, from the tv.
How do you propose to get the signal 'from the tv'?
a tv with video output as well
A good FAQ on Macrovision:
http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/LINK/F_MacroVision.html
David Zverina wrote:
Anybody know how to kill macrovision protection?? (the thing
that stops you plugging your DVD player into a VCR?)
I would have thought that taking the TV out from your video card
Dave Fitch wrote:
Jim Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED]
this is incorrect. Macrovision can actually prevent the VCR from taping (and in
some models even viewing) the DVD player output.
how's that work exactly?
I can't see how if you can see it on the tv, you can't tape it off
the tv - ie. not
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