** Changed in: firefox
Importance: Unknown = Critical
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Sorry to kick this obsoleted discussion. Unfortunatly I have to admit
that I too, have quit using Ubuntu. To be specific: Xubuntu. I am not
the only one who quit using an Ubuntu distro. My wife who's a dedicated
KDE user quit Kubuntu for the reason Canonical chose KDE4 in stead of
offering the
To Laurens V.
You do not need to accept any Eula in Ubuntu, you can use abrowser as the same
way you use iceweasel on Debian.
You do not need to upgrade your system each six months, you can use LTS
versions only, which is almost equal to use Debian stable.
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released
** Changed in: ubufox
Status: Fix Committed = Fix Released
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** Changed in: firefox
Status: New = Invalid
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** Changed in: firefox
Bugwatch: Mozilla Bugzilla #439604 = Mozilla Bugzilla #439858
Status: Invalid = Unknown
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** Changed in: firefox
Status: Unknown = Fix Released
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Lol you said anal
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-Original Message-
From: blackest_knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subj: [Bug 269656] Re: AN IRRELEVANT LICENSE IS PRESENTED TO YOU
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Date: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:44 am
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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Frankenphishing Service.
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
pj wrote:
Since Mark is asking for input on the service, I will tell you that the
first thing I do is
turn off antiphishing services, along with every other thing that tends to
track my
surfing. I turn off Javascript and cookies too,
Its been an interesting discussion, thanks for all those involved.
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Ante Karamatić wrote:
rant mode
Yet again, Debian doesn't allow me to create a t-shirt with 'Debian
Official' logo on it. On the other hand, Debian developers do have that right.
/rant mode
Note how silly a scenario you had to create in order to make your point.
According to Debian's own
I think two things need to be added.
First: All this should be easy to find under Help - About.
Second: As I understand it, when the service is turned on, Firefox
contacts Google once every half hour (or some such) to update the
blacklist. This should be mentioned.
By contacting Google, the
Another piece of information that needs to clear, in accepting the
current push of FireFox, will it reset the flags that are turned off,
forcing you to agree to something you have already not agreed to?
This whole problem has been handled backwards. First forcing EULA, to
get a hidden by default
Remco wrote:
Trademark is, like copyright and patents, an intellectual property,
designed to restrict other people. It's not in the spirit of free
software to be bound by any of these.
Remco, the GPL specifically constrains what you can do with code, using
copyright law. It's easy to confuse do
Remco wrote:
Why do you think Ubuntu is not called Ubuntu Linux? The trademark has
been removed from the name.
No, that has nothing to do with it. Our packages use linux in the
name. If Linus wanted (or the Linux Foundation, I think) then they could
ask us to change them, or stop using the
pj wrote:
Firefox also *offers optional* web site information services, such as
blah blah
Instead of:
Firefox also *uses* web site information services
Looks like an improvement to me, I'll pass on the suggestion to Mozilla
folks who may not be watching this thread.
On grannie,
2008/9/24 Mark Shuttleworth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
No, if we want to use the Firefox brand, then we must work with Mozilla,
and that's reasonable. If we don't want to use the brand, they have
kindly given us lots of rights to the code they have so lovingly produced.
I do more and more agree with
Creak wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I understood that they did few Debian-specific
modifications. But as long as they modified Firefox, they can't reuse the
name.
If I'm right until then, why don't they send their modifications to Mozilla?
Mozilla refused?
I wasn't part of that decision, so
I must admit that I had not given much thought to naming and trademarks
in free software earlier. I'm wondering if the situation with Firefox is
any different from other big names which are trademarked, like KDE,
GNOME, Linux, or OpenOffice. I have not heard similar controversies
about them in the
To Mark, all,
Well, I have been making too much a point of this. The reason for that
is that the replies I got did not show they understood my main problem
with the situation. No, I don't misunderstand trademark; trademark does
impose limits on the Firefox® product -- and Firefox® is a different
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
I wasn't part of that decision, so I'm only repeating what I heard,
which is that Debian simply preferred not to be obliged to discuss their
changes with Mozilla. I don't think there was any specific change which
Debian wanted and Mozilla felt was problematic, it was
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:19:24 -
Brian C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Debian cannot allow special exemptions that
apply only to Debian or this would leave its users in the lurch with
less freedom than Debian itself has.
rant mode
Yet again, Debian doesn't allow me to create a t-shirt with
To understand a bit more about the anti phishing in firefox you should read
about the documentation,
http://code.google.com/p/google-safe-browsing/wiki/Protocolv2Spec , or other
pages about the code.
Now know that the service is not perfect, let me explain, what i mean
for the part i
All of the software in question can be freely modified and distributed.
Mark
If this was so, you could have removed the EULA yourself to begin with,
and much of this discussion would not have occurred. Remco put it well:
The mere fact that Mozilla has any say in this makes Firefox non-free.
pj wrote:
Since Mark is asking for input on the service, I will tell you that the first
thing I do is
turn off antiphishing services, along with every other thing that tends to
track my
surfing. I turn off Javascript and cookies too, for example, so I'm
definitely not the
average person
Prateek Karandikar wrote:
All of the software in question can be freely modified and distributed.
Mark
If this was so, you could have removed the EULA yourself to begin with,
and much of this discussion would not have occurred. Remco put it well:
The mere fact that Mozilla has any
The way this discussion has developed and the obvious participation of
major figures in the OS community is another solid reason for me to
appreciate open source software.
Whilst not directly related to the EULA, if the version of Firefox to be
included in Ubuntu in the future will incorporate
Just to throw in my metaphorical towel.
Chip Bennet, who I have found myself agreeing with from the beginning
and who has a much better way with words than me, has apparently
actually gone and read the agreement that is the final piece of this
puzzle.
In comment 508:
** Attachment added: Screenshot: release-candidate firstrun (rev3)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17877769/firstrun.png
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** Attachment added: Screenshot: release-candidate about:rights (default)
(rev3)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/1784/about_rights.png
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** Attachment added: Screenshot: release-candidate about:rights (expanded)
(rev3)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/1786/about_rights_expanded.png
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I am pleased to say that we reached a state where I feel comfortable to
call this bug fix committed.
Thanks to all for contributing, testing and providing feedback.
The screenshots i just posted reflect the current state as of rev 337 on
the firefox-3.0.head branch, which is most likely what
Trademark is, like copyright and patents, an intellectual property,
designed to restrict other people. It's not in the spirit of free
software to be bound by any of these. Patent problems are hard to avoid
in general, which is why they should be abolished. Copyright has been
tamed by free software
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:46:03 -
Remco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Trademark is, like copyright and patents, an intellectual property,
designed to restrict other people.
No, you don't understand trademarks. Trademarks are designed to watch
out for your property, where 'you' can be whatever you
No, you don't understand trademarks. Trademarks are designed to watch
out for your property, where 'you' can be whatever you want; community,
open source software, a person...
Yes, I do understand trademarks. The same thing is said for copyright,
patents, and even technical restriction
Hi Mark, all,
I had time to read over the services wording, and I can't find serious
fault with it, but IANAL. I'm sure you are asking one, so here's my only
suggested change:
Firefox also *offers optional* web site information services, such as
blah blah
Instead of:
Firefox also *uses*
This bug was fixed in the package firefox-3.0 - 3.0.2+build6+nobinonly-
0ubuntu1
---
firefox-3.0 (3.0.2+build6+nobinonly-0ubuntu1) intrepid; urgency=low
Security/Stability update (v3.0.2 build6)
- see USN-645-1
[ Fabien Tassin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
* Add a -g/--debug switch
This bug was fixed in the package ubufox - 0.6~b1-0ubuntu3
---
ubufox (0.6~b1-0ubuntu3) intrepid; urgency=low
(cherry-pick rev 112 from lp:ubufox)
* fix LP: #269656 - AN IRRELEVANT LICENSE IS PRESENTED TO YOU
FREE-OF-CHARGE ON STARTUP; we backout the infamous firstrun feature
To label trademarks in the same bucket as copyright is a strawman
argument that's a very slippery slope.
Instead of restricting users, trademarks protect users from abuse by
providing a consistent user experience associated with a brand. It has
been lucky that the free software projects without
Chip Bennett wrote:
Maybe Canonical has an
agreement with Mozilla to get a part of the Google money to have these
services enabled, or maybe they just see it from a marketing point of
view and want the brand recognition that firefox carries, for example to
maintain their deal with Dell who
William Grant wrote:
I question the wording of the notification bar at the top; the point it
is trying to make is not that it's open, but that there are things which
aren't. Software shouldn't present a button describing restrictions,
with text next to it emphasising that it's open, not
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that the right thing to do is leave the
anti-phishing service on, and leave Firefox in main.
Do you believe that it is acceptable to have application software in
main that you are not free to modify and distribute? Doesn't this
contradict the
A new intrepid build is available in my preview/testing archive:
- https://edge.launchpad.net/~asac/+archive
- firefox-3.0 - 3.0.2+build6+nobinonly-0ubuntu1~asac2
This upload addresses some technical details and comes with updated
wording for the notification displayed on firstrun as well as
** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed firstrun (rev2)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17836902/firstrun2.png
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** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed about:rights (default) (rev2)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17836924/about_rights.png
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** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed about:rights (expanded) (rev2)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17836931/about_rights_expanded.png
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Prateek Karandikar wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that the right thing to do is leave the
anti-phishing service on, and leave Firefox in main.
Do you believe that it is acceptable to have application software in
main that you are not free to modify and distribute? Doesn't this
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Alexander Sack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed about:rights (expanded) (rev2)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17836931/about_rights_expanded.png
A nit - do we really need ALL CAPS? Even Mr. Shuttleworth doesn't
seem to be
Since Mark is asking for input on the service, I will tell you that the first
thing I do is
turn off antiphishing services, along with every other thing that tends to
track my
surfing. I turn off Javascript and cookies too, for example, so I'm definitely
not the
average person in my habits. I
Sorry PJ, but I can't agree with you. What's the point of having super-duper
antiphishing features in web browsers if they were turned off by default? Why
users should be bothered to turn them on? Those who don't want such
antiphishing services are a minority. So they can have a little more
All of the software in question can be freely modified and distributed.
Mark
This hasn't been true for a long time. The version of Firefox that is
shipped can not be modified freely. If we don't get permission from
Mozilla to ship a revised binary, we can't. This has to do with the
artwork and
Firefox cannot be distributed in a modified form.
The whole point of the branding from Mozzila's point of view was that
there should not be 100's of modified Firefox's floating about
If it can not be modified and distributed by *definition* it can not be
in main...
Otherwise you are saying we
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:20:18 -
Remco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This hasn't been true for a long time. The version of Firefox that is
shipped can not be modified freely. If we don't get permission from
Mozilla to ship a revised binary, we can't. This has to do with the
artwork and name,
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Trademarks are similar to filenames in a filesystem, right? We can't
have two files with the same name in the same folder... But we could
have that file in another folder - it means that in another country we
could register Firefox if you would like. But, anyways, you are not
going to register
Gavin: thanks. this is now address in bzr rev329.
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Gavin: thanks. this is now addressed in bzr rev329.
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I question the wording of the notification bar at the top; the point it
is trying to make is not that it's open, but that there are things which
aren't.
Agreed. The point is not about the free/open-ness. Pidgin, OpenOffice,
and many other installed-by-default things are free, they don't need any
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kafpauzo said:
People tend to interpret the defaults as a very strong recommendation.
When people are uncertain about the consequences of touching a setting, many
will see the default as a recommendation that you should disobey only if you
have a really compelling reason, and only if you have
+1 to Dragonlord's comment #466
I have yet to be convinced that it is the right thing to do to include
Firefox in *main* with these services enabled as default. In this state,
FF is *not* Free software; you are required to accept a usage policy
irrespective of how conspicuous or not that
kafpauzo
The GPL does allow trademark restrictions. You'd need to find software that is
published under a license that forbids trademark restrictions.
A licence can only declare rules (it can't forbid or restrict anything,
except the authors of the licence). A licence can restrict only the
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's imagine we're *not* talking about Google and Mozilla. I definitely
won't trust an Open Source software that is offered to me with a
pre-accepted EULA.
The reason is simple: it's only about trust. W'e ve seen, more than once,
companies that
In light of the recent comments, I'm starting to see the additional
problems with having firefox as-is in main, especially with the web
services enabled by default. Indeed, like Chip pointed out, Firefox with
web services cannot be freely used without taking note of its use
restrictions. I do
Hi,
Finally some test builds are available for intrepid in my test archive:
https://edge.launchpad.net/~asac/+archive
The package versions required are:
firefox-3.0 - 3.0.2+build6+nobinonly-0ubuntu1~asac1
xulrunner-1.9 - 1.9.0.2+build6+nobinonly-0ubuntu1~asac2
ubufox -
** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed firstrun
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17779249/firstrun1.png
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** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed about:rights (default)
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** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed about:rights (expanded)
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17779313/about_rights_expanded.png
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I think free and open-source software would make more sense, rather than
just open software.
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Nice workflow, unobtrusive, reassuring. Good stuff Alexander.
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On Sat, 2008-09-20 at 13:15 +, aschuring wrote:
In light of the recent comments, I'm starting to see the additional
problems with having firefox as-is in main, especially with the web
services enabled by default. Indeed, like Chip pointed out, Firefox with
web services cannot be freely
That seems to be a less invasive solution to me, making the default
installation more usable, so thanks to those involved for the
improvement. This still seems to be non-free though, so I still think
firefox-3.0 or the branding package should be moved to restricted.
The
Dont enable the anti-phishing by default, but educate about how it can
be turned on.
As others pointed out, the people who most need anti-phishing are the
ones who are least likely to change the settings :-)
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On Sat, 2008-09-20 at 16:31 +, ua wrote:
Tim Post wrote:
So I dived into Google, which is ...u miss this kind of stuff? :)
Friendly,
--Tim
I think you should stop. What you say isn't going to help free software.
I respect Mark and I can't respect you. you seem so much
Am 20.09.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Alexander Sack:
** Attachment added: Screenshot: proposed firstrun
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17779249/firstrun1.png
Looks reasonable, even if I still think Mozilla's insistence makes
them look a bit silly.
Do you have a hint on how to reset Firefox to
You can use the command firefox -profilemanager to add a new profile.
This will let you test the new first-run EULA if you missed it (or want
to experience it again). This new version of the EULA appeared for me
even though I had already viewed the previous version, so if you're
paying attention
I hate to say this here, but Mark Shuttleworth is a businessman, a
company leader, not exactly what I would call a free software leader.
And that's fine! But we need to know what we're talking about. Even
launchpad is not free software (yet), one wouldn't expect from a free
software leader to
On Saturday 20 September 2008 10:57:20 am JohnFlux wrote:
Dont enable the anti-phishing by default, but educate about how it can
be turned on.
As others pointed out, the people who most need anti-phishing are the
ones who are least likely to change the settings :-)
I respect that position;
On Saturday 20 September 2008 12:18:12 pm Dragonlord wrote:
Anyway, this is
not about bashing mr. Shuttleworth, honestly, but we need to view things
from a realistic perspective.
Agreed; attacking Mark Shuttleworth over this issue is unnecessary and
unproductive.
Maybe Canonical has an
How is the integrated Google Search service any different from the
integrated anti-phishing service? Both come with additional terms. Yet
Google Search is not debated here, while the anti-phishing services are.
Maybe if you could configure from which provider you would like to get
the
On Saturday 20 September 2008 4:18:03 pm Remco wrote:
How is the integrated Google Search service any different from the
integrated anti-phishing service? Both come with additional terms. Yet
Google Search is not debated here, while the anti-phishing services are.
The significant difference
Alexander worote:
* Screenshot: proposed about:rights (default) (75.4 KiB, image/png)
IMHO, it is disrespectful to Ubuntu users to present an Agreement as
Agreed by *default* ( as one can see in the mockup attached ).
Solutions:
i) don't call it Agreement ( suggestion: call it Important
asac, this looks much better! about:rights is perhaps a little bland,
but it's a bit more readable!
I question the wording of the notification bar at the top; the point it
is trying to make is not that it's open, but that there are things which
aren't. Software shouldn't present a button
Alexander: the nsIAboutModule you implemented in
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/firefox/firefox-3.0.head/revision/327
doesn't return ALLOW_SCRIPTS from its getURIFlags, so the link on the
page it displays will be broken if the user has JavaScript disabled.
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It is certainly possible to have a free service. Look at the Affero
General Public License. That deals with services. You could say that
those are free services.
Errr... ?! The licence clearly says:
'Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this
I don't see any difference between asking my ISP non-free router's
operating system where should my data go and asking
non-free Google/Mozilla if some website is 'phishing'.
The difference is that my ISP isn't pretending to be free. It can use free
software as much as it wants to, but its
** Also affects: ubufox (Ubuntu)
Importance: Undecided
Status: New
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The following tasks are in progress to fix this bug in ubuntu:
1. firefox-3.0 - implement the Know Your Rights... approach which was
presented here: http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2008/09/17/mock-ups-
available-for-notices-previously-was-eula/
2. ubufox - back-out the firstrun EULA
Thanks,
ubufox part of this bug is now fix committed in bzr. Remember that
firefox-3.0 task is _still_ in progress.
If you want to track the progress, the Related Branches are linked
below the bug summary.
** Changed in: ubufox (Ubuntu Intrepid)
Status: In Progress = Fix Committed
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** Changed in: ubufox
Status: In Progress = Fix Committed
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Ante Karamatić wrote:
And, as any other license, it's about software, not a service. You can
have GPL software on your computer, but your service, based on it, can
be non-free. Output of AGPL-ed software (aka service) can be non-free
- it's simple, AGPL doesn't cover services.
The AGPL does
On Fri, 2008-09-19 at 06:31 +, Ante Karamatić wrote:
And, as any other license, it's about software, not a service. You can
have GPL software on your computer, but your service, based on it, can
be non-free. Output of AGPL-ed software (aka service) can be non-free -
it's simple, AGPL
Some final after thoughts...
I wonder if the topic is closed succesfully? The eula has changed into an
webpage with the notice
and is being worked on is what i know sofar, but still gives Ubuntu an moral
issue, as to where firefox should go now, in nonfree repositories?
Would it have been
@unimatrix9: Would it have been better for firefox to move anti-
phishing non free software to the add-ons that you install on choice?
The anti-phishing does not involve any restricted software inside
Firefox. All of the restricted software is on Google's servers. The
software inside Firefox is
On Friday 19 September 2008 2:46:38 pm kafpauzo wrote:
The purists are worried that the software on Google's servers is
restricted. The purists feel that because Google hasn't released their
_server_ software, this makes Google's service non-free. They feel that
Firefox becomes non-free just
yes but firefox is dependent on Google service wich is non-free trade secret
software i suggest to remove firefox from the main repo and replace it by
abrowser by default or the debian unbranded release of FF.
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FireFox is non-free in it default configuration. Any attemp by the
software to contact a server that I do not request, is in my mind thief-
of-services. I can not stop FireFox from doing this before load ubuntu
or calling firefox. I must access first then after my IP has been
recorded and
firefox code is free but its services require that you accept the eula this
is the only main package which do that and i think this is intolerable why
we accept such unique behavior ?
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@ Chip Bennet:
My contention is that Firefox *may* become non-free because it has
services enabled that require the end user either accept their use
terms, or else disable those services.
This is certainly much more interesting and important.
(Unfortunately I can't help you start this
On Friday 19 September 2008 8:39:41 pm kafpauzo wrote:
@ Chip Bennet:
However I don't agree with you that non-free service and freedom are
suitable terms for services. I think free causes confusion rather than
clarity. It sounds like you mean free as in the GPL, to which the
necessary reply
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