I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <scheno...@gmail.com> wrote: > Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a > month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you > want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left > over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick > Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs > around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be > wrong, but judging from > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see > that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD > 16,000 a month. > > Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD > 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic > bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor > laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws > (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's > just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure > that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of > WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot. > > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55 AM Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> or the 3am meetings >> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving >>> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of >>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much >>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging >>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of >>> travel. >>> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <scheno...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place, >>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower >>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and >>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00 AM Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to >>>>>> Romania or something) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum >>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part >>>>> of >>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors >>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills >>>>> and >>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are >>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgw...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit... >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the >>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of >>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer >>>>>>> (or >>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can >>>>>>> example a few. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why >>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. >>>>>> Here's >>>>>> a few others off the top of my head: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to >>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything >>>>>> that they >>>>>> own. >>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams >>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members >>>>>> angry. >>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance >>>>>> to deprecate functionality. >>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature. >>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature >>>>>> requests is not a roadmap). >>>>>> >>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, >>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I >>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be >>>>>> deprecated! >>>>>> >>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone >>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, >>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Boodarwun >>>>> Gnangarra >>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar >>>>> koortaboodjar' >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, >>>>> guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> Public archives at >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public archives at >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Boodarwun >>> Gnangarra >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar >>> koortaboodjar' >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Boodarwun >> Gnangarra >> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar >> koortaboodjar' >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
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