Alright, let me try to clarify what I mean. Currently with the rise of
popularity in electronic music more and more artists are just situated on a
rising curve of how popular or known they are. If they are low on the curve
it doesn't nesacarily make them underoground. I've seen some artists who do
one time events...like Buhdist sand art....and never repeat them or record
them. They are lost in time, except for your memory of it. That, I believe,
is underground. I'm not saying it's better than what anybody else is doing.
Now for some of these points (if we are to be all on the same page):
a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens
Not all so-called "underground" artists operate in strict secrecy. UR sort
of does (with their personas) but they still dessimenate info to "get the
word out"
a usually avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the
establishment
Selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. Remember the
establishment can be the so-called underground dance movement.
Anyways, read the definitions before you start calling someone a
"sell-out" or what have you.
I don't know if this was directed to my posting but I don't think I called
anyone a sell-out. You can't really be a sell-out unless you go against your
own morals and rules that you set down for yourself.
If you like or dislike the music, that's where you should stand, not
telling them they can't promote themselves on this list.
Promote away, I think it's great if people become rich and famous for
sticking to their guns and believing in what they can do, but_only_if they
want to become rich and famous through their work.
Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their right.
It doesn't matter what anybody but the artist thinks. I don't know what any
particular artist's intention is unless they tell me. So how can I or anyone
else judge an artist unless they make public their intentions?
But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels,
to specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things.
Again, selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. How
can exchanging money for product be regarded as underground? They may be way
out at the edge of things but they are still working within the established
way of doing business. And believe me, selling records, owning a record
label and being an artist who sells records and signs contracts is a
business.
there is a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit
Grand Pubahs?),because to really play in that larger mass arena you have
to tap into a whole new structure for distribution.
It's not really a new structure it's just more complicated and has more
legal bullshit. It may seem new because it's bigger and there are more
people who want a piece of the cake.
Really, I think to use the term "underground" is just trying to romanticize
the image of lesser known artists. I'm not slighting the efforts of artists
by saying whether they are or are not "underground" because I know it's hard
work no matter to what degree to which they are recognized by the public.
What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside the traditional
manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems.
I don't know what is exciting to you because you didn't mention any examples
but if you record a tune, press it, distribute it even to a small specialty
shop and put some time and energy into getting publicity for it...that is
still working within traditional system. It's just a smaller scale with less
money available to make it work.
I don't think that makes it underground.
That's my point.
Fred
P.S. There has to be some kind of agreement as to what underground means
other wise we can all argue our points until we are blue in the face and
still not agree and this thread will go on until someone calls me or someone
else a Nazi or Hitler:)
From: "Dennis Donohue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:07:22 CDT
Quoting Webster:
Main Entry: 1un·der·ground
Pronunciation: "&n-d&r-'graund
Function: adverb
Date: 1571
1 : beneath the surface of the earth
2 : in or into hiding or secret operation
Main Entry: 2underground
Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-"
Function: noun
Date: 1594
1 : a subterranean space or channel
2 : an underground city railway system
3 a : a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens
especially in an occupied
country for maintaining communications, popular solidarity, and concerted
resistive action
pending liberation b : a clandestine conspiratorial organization set up for
revolutionary
or other disruptive purposes especially against a civil order c : an
unofficial,
unsanctioned, or illegal but informal movement or group; especially : a
usually
avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the establishment
Main Entry: 3un·der·ground
Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-"graund
Function: adjective
Date: 1610
1 : being, growing, operating, or situated below the surface of the ground
2 : conducted by secret means
3 a : existing outside the establishment <an underground literary
reputation> b : existing outside the purview of tax collectors or
statisticians <the underground economy>
4 a : produced or published outside the establishment especially by the
avant-garde <underground movies> <underground newspapers> b : of or
relating to the avant-garde underground <an underground moviemaker> <an
underground theater>
Main Entry: Underground Railroad
Function: noun
Date: 1842
: a system of cooperation among active antislavery people in the U.S.
before 1863 by which fugitive slaves were secretly helped to reach the
North or Canada -- called also Underground Railway
I think we are just arguing over the perceived definition of a word now.
Which means that someone had to get a definition. (that underground
railroad was just for fun!) Anyways, read the definitions before you start
calling someone a "sell-out" or what have you. If you like or dislike the
music, that's where you should stand, not telling them they can't promote
themselves on this list. If you can give your opinion, then they can
self-promote. Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their
right.
Regards,
Dennis.
From: Kent williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: FRED MCMURRY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org
Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:44:44 -0500 (CDT)
I think 'underground' doesn't mean that you can't sell records, or sign
with a label. What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside
the traditional manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems.
Is Watts Music 'underground?' or Sonic Groove? No. They're brick and
mortar
businesses whose survival is dependent upon them operating as good
capitalists.
But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels,
to
specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things. And there is
a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit Grand
Pubahs?),
because to really play in that larger mass arena you have to tap into
a whole new structure for distribution.
kent williams -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mp3.com/chaircrusher -- tunes
http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=chaircrusher -- mix
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