I think that may be part of the new urban feminism that arose with Lil' Kim and co building on Madonna's brand of feminism. Things are internalised and subverted. Trad feminists had real issues when Madonna first came out and there has always been disquiet surrounding Kim, who acknowledged Madonna as an inspiration. Trina's song was written by Missy, so that's Missy's humour. I don't have much time for trad feminism and feminist academia as I believe they need to address the total lack of gender loyalty among (educated) women. I'm for equality for all, which I just explained in response to Ian's post. And, for the record, Missy has denied being a feminist, calling herself instead a humanist. I am sure Lester has some good points on all this, he's 313's resident political scientist and always puts forward sensible arguments. ;)
> lets also point out that for all the misogynism in hip hop, > while to some degree it might be "looked over" from a female perspective of > those who like that music... there is also an arguably reciprical aspect > going on in hip hop and r&b. > > i.e. to some degree there's a two way street, mutually exploitive aspect, > like as far as lyrics by women to women a long the lines of "girlfriend get > that cash" or "get them keys". > > I dunno - I guess a good example would be Trina's "No Panties". > of course, many might point out that this sort of thing is > "self-exploitive" but then, in a big picture sense I think misogyny is too. > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Cyclone Louise Wehner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:29:08 +1100 > >>I think it was dream hampton who wrote about how women - especially women of >>colour - listen and appreciate gangsta rap styles and somehow listen >>'beyond' what could be construed as misogynism. >>Let's be frank: the truth is that sexism is not deemed as offensive >>cuturally as racism, accuse a racist of racism and he will get defensive, >>accuse a male of sexism and it's laughed off. I always wondered about that. >>You'd think *anything* that holds back a human should be abhored. I am >>philosophical about it. It is what it is. We women deal with it. >>I didn't even pick up on the 'sexism' in OutKast myself. I think there is a >>story line there. >>What concerns me more is how women do not support each other. >>I guess it's ironic Andrew - a male - picked this up. ;) >> >> >>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:15:43 -0000, FC2 Richards wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Sorry to bust you open on this thread, but last time I >>>> listened to the words >>>> of hey ya it was all about waiting for the right >>> girl. >>>> My wife happens to >>>> think that is the sweetest song on the album just >>>> because of what it is >>>> about. She can look past the whole bitch thing, and I >>>> think most people >>>> can. If you don't like it, you don't have to listen >>> to >>>> it. Just choose >>>> what ever is the lesser of 2 evils. I chose to >>>> continue to listen to >>>> Outkast. >>> >>> ***don't get me wrong, i'm still listening to outkast; >>> coincidentally, my fiance's favorite song on the double >>> album is hey ya, and in my last live set i did sort of >>> a live remix of hey ya/i like the way you move admist >>> some of my own electro. i'm not hatin' on outkast. i >>> wasn't singling out any lyrics in hey ya, i was just >>> talking about outkast's lyrics in general--outkast came >>> up on the list and the lyric thing has always been >>> something i've been aware of when listening to them so >>> i mentioned it (i still remember a negative bit that >>> was said about lesbians in a song they did in the past >>> that featured erykah badu; people would say to me "hey, >>> i'm digging that new outkast song with erkyah badu" and >>> i'd be saying "yes, the music is great, but i wish they >>> didn't have that line in there about lesbians". i >>> can't even remember the song, but negative things like >>> that stick with me. i could say nothing, but i say >>> something because it bothers me. i don't see a need >>> for heterosexual men to talk about lesbians at all, let >>> alone negatively. i know my lesbian friends don't >>> appreciate lyrics like that). anyway, what jumps out >>> at me on first thought is the song on the new album >>> whose last 2 minutes riffs on "bitch...crazy bitch." >>> as you said, i can just not listen to it. i listen to >>> it, just cringe a bit when that bit comes on and let it >>> keep playing. (my fiance, however, skips that song >>> when she plays the album on her own; she says, "damn, i >>> can understand he's mad, but why does he have to say >>> 'bitch' so much in this song? the point was made 20 >>> 'bitches' ago!" i agree with her) different strokes >>> for different folks, i suppose; i realize we all have >>> different reactions to what is said in lyrics. as i >>> said below, i like outkast, i just wish they were more >>> positive lyrically about women and sexuality, that's >>> all. (not meaning to drag this thread on and on, just >>> wanted to clarify what i had said--pardon the >>> pun--below) :) that's all from me on outkast's lyrics, >>> i promise :) >>> take care. andrew duke >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 6:22 AM >>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Cc: 313@hyperreal.org >>>> Subject: (313) Re: hey ya? >>>> >>>> I'm under the impression that it came out promo-only >>> as >>>> a double A side with "I Like The Way You Move", both >>> as >>>> album cuts, ie no remixes or anything. I'm a huge fan >>>> of Outkast's music but I wish they would talk about >>>> women and sex in a more positive way. I just can't >>>> stand hearing men use the word "bitch" and continue to >>>> be apalled by how many men in hip hop and r n b >>>> continue to talk about lesbians in a negative way ie >>>> either "i'm so much of a man lesbians want me too" >>>> and/or "she doesn't want me so she must be a >>> lesbian". >>>> i still think much can be learned from prince, who >>>> talked about women and sex very very often, but always >>>> positively. Prince seemed to celebrate sexuality for >>>> the sake of it, whereas for Outkast and many hip hop >>>> and r n b acts, sexuality is talked about as a "power" >>>> issue of "men having power over women", which I find >>>> distasteful. Speaking of NERD, Pharrell seems to talk >>>> about women and sex positively. my CDN .02. Andrew >>> Duke >>> >>> out now: Environmental Politics http://and-oar.org >>> Take Nothing For Granted http://acidfake.tk >>> Sprung http://bip-hop.com >>> http://warprecords.com/mart/music/release.php? >>> cat=BLEEP12&fc_type=CD >>> *Canadian electronica album of the year nominee* >>> More Destructive Than Organized http://staalplaat.com >>> Highest Common Denominator http://pieheadrecords.com >>> Physical and Mental Health http://dialrecords.com >>> 74'02 (split with Hypo) http://tsunami-addiction.com >>> Waveforms: Halifax Electronic Music Compilation >>> http://cognitionaudioworks.com >> > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Free 20 MB Bannerless Domain Hosting, 1000 MB Data Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and more. > Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ >
