thanks john!..i have seen the tinyurl domain all over the place and just thought that it was a site with very wideranging topics..:)..thans again
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerseyjohn99" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > agreed. Here's hoping it'll be OVER tomorrow night! (either > way...somebody PLEASE get 50%!) > > Tony, > > there is a site http://www.tinyurl.com which allows you to make > short URLs from long ones. Your Yahoo link is shortened to > http://tinyurl.com/4cuhb > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Tyler, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Once again I hope we all stop and refelct on how amazing this list > is. This > > discussion is some of the best I have heard in the entire > campaign. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tony Tedesco [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 1:11 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [AsburyPark] Re: 3 Political Films screening in AP this > Friday > > > > > > > > > > france is officially challenging the Duelfer report. pretty > adamantly > > too..here is a link concerning that..while it is clear that the > oil > > for food program is clearly corrupt, the duelfer report may be > > erroneous. but in my opinion it doesnt matter if its 8% or 80%, > its > > another example of human nature and money..it is also not just the > > germans and the french (funny how 'old europe' is so prominently > > fingered)..the Al-Mada (Iraqi news)report that sparked this > > investigation listed 270 persons from more than 46 countries > involved > > in this scandal..the UN has consistently had shady dealings, > > including distributing corrupted health vaccines that in effect > > sterilized women in thrid world countries..not once , not twice, > but > > three times that they were actually reprimamded for..anyway, thats > a > > whole other mess.. > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/news? > tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041025/ap_on_re_eu/france_oil_for_food_investigati > on_2 > > > > sorry for the long links..i am unsure how to format long links to > > correctly appear in final post. any help on this would be > > appreciated.. > > > > as for the lost battles issue, it is always hard with situations > like > > those in iraq to define a win or a loss..here is a opinion piece > from > > Sidney Blumenthal that was posted on salon.com (i have pasted the > > piece, as you need to go through some sign up, etc to view it on > > salon) that addresses the general notion of victory vs. defeat in > > iraq. within he quotes a few retired high level military personnel. > > > > =================================================================== > > Iraq "War is Lost" > > > > The "war is lost" > > > > Military experts say they see no exit from the Iraq debacle -- and > > that the war is helping al-Qaida. > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - > > By Sidney Blumenthal > > > > > > Sept. 16, 2004 | "Bring them on!" President Bush challenged the > early > > Iraqi insurgency in July of last year. Since then 812 American > > soldiers have been killed and 6,290 wounded, according to the > > Pentagon. Almost every day in campaign speeches, Bush speaks with > > bravado about how we are "winning" in Iraq. "Our strategy is > > succeeding," he boasted to the National Guard convention on > Tuesday. > > > > But according to the U.S. military's leading strategists and > > prominent retired generals, Bush's war is already lost. > > > > Retired Gen. William Odom, former head of the National Security > > Agency, told me: "Bush hasn't found the WMD. Al-Qaida, it's worse - > - > > he's lost on that front. That he's going to achieve a democracy > > there? That goal is lost, too. It's lost." He added: "Right now, > the > > course we're on, we're achieving [Osama] bin Laden's ends." > > > > Retired Gen. Joseph Hoare the former Marine commander and head of > the > > U.S. Central Command, told me: "The idea that this is going to go > the > > way these guys planned is ludicrous. There are no good options. > We're > > conducting a campaign as though it were being conducted in Iowa, > no > > sense of the realities on the ground. It's so unrealistic for > anyone > > who knows that part of the world. The priorities are just all > wrong." > > > > "I see no ray of light on the horizon at all," said Jeffrey > Record, > > professor of strategy at the Air War College. "The worst case has > > become true. There's no analogy whatsoever between the situation > in > > Iraq and the advantages we had after World War II in Germany and > > Japan." > > > > "I don't think that you can kill the insurgency," said W. Andrew > > Terrill, professor at the Army War College's Strategic Studies > > Institute, the top expert on Iraq there. According to Terrill, the > > anti-U.S. insurgency, centered in the Sunni triangle, and holding > > several key cities and towns, including Fallujah, is expanding and > > becoming more capable as a direct consequence of U.S. policy. "We > > have a growing, maturing insurgency group," he told me. "We see > > larger and more coordinated military attacks. They are getting > better > > and they can self-regenerate. The idea there are X number of > > insurgents and when they're all dead we can get out is wrong. The > > insurgency has shown an ability to regenerate itself because there > > are people willing to fill the ranks of those who are killed. The > > political culture is more hostile to the U.S. presence. The longer > we > > stay, the more they are confirmed in that view." > > > > After the killing of four U.S. contractors in Fallujah, the U.S. > > Marines besieged the city for three weeks in April -- the > watershed > > event for the insurgency. "I think the president ordered the > attack > > on Fallujah," said Gen. Hoare. "I asked a three-star Marine > general > > who gave the order to go to Fallujah and he wouldn't tell me. I > came > > to the conclusion that the order came directly from the White > House." > > Then, just as suddenly, the order was rescinded, and Islamist > > radicals gained control, using the city as a base, al-Qaida > ("base" > > in Arabic) indeed. > > > > "If you are a Muslim and the community is under occupation by a > non- > > Islamic power, it becomes a religious requirement to resist that > > occupation," Terrill explained. "Most Iraqis consider us > occupiers, > > not liberators." He describes the religious imagery common now in > > Fallujah and the Sunni triangle: "There's talk of angels and the > > prophet Mohammed coming down from heaven to lead the fighting, > talk > > of martyrs whose bodies are glowing and emanating wonderful > scents." > > > > "I see no exit," said Record. "We've been down that road before. > It's > > called Vietnamization. The idea we're going to have an Iraqi force > > trained to defeat an enemy we can't defeat stretches the > imagination. > > They will be tainted by their very association with the foreign > > occupier. In fact, we had more time and money in state building in > > Vietnam than in Iraq." > > > > "This is far graver than Vietnam," said Gen. Odom. "There wasn't > as > > much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly > went > > ahead with a war that was not constructive for U.S. aims. But now > > we're in a region far more volatile and we're in much worse shape > > with our allies." > > > > Terrill believes that any sustained U.S. military offensive > against > > the no-go areas of the Sunni triangle "could become so > controversial > > that members of the Iraqi government would feel compelled to > resign." > > Thus an attempted military solution would destroy the slightest > > remaining political legitimacy. "If we leave and there's no civil > > war, that's a victory." > > > > Gen. Hoare believes from the information he has received that "a > > decision has been made" to attack Fallujah "after the first > Tuesday > > in November. That's the cynical part of it -- after the election. > The > > signs are all there." He compares any such planned attack with > late > > Syrian dictator Hafez al-Assad's razing of the rebel city of > > Hama. "You could flatten it," said Hoare. "U.S. military forces > would > > prevail, casualties would be high, there would be inconclusive > > results with respect to the bad guys, their leadership would > escape, > > and civilians would be caught in the middle. I hate that > > phrase 'collateral damage.' And they talked about dancing in the > > street, a beacon for democracy." > > > > Gen. Odom remarked that the tension between the Bush > administration > > and senior military officers over Iraq is worse than any he has > ever > > seen with any previous U.S. government, including during > > Vietnam. "I've never seen it so bad between the Office of the > > Secretary of Defense and the military. There's a significant > majority > > believing this is a disaster. The two parties whose interests have > > been advanced have been the Iranians and al-Qaida. Bin Laden could > > argue with some cogency that our going into Iraq was the > equivalent > > of the Germans in Stalingrad. They defeated themselves by pouring > > more in there. Tragic." > > > > > http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/09/16/iraq_war/index.htm > l > > > > > ===================================================================== > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jerseyjohn99" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > From the Duelfer Report (the same report which said Saddam did > NOT > > > possess WMD). > > > > > > http://www2.cia.gov/iraqs_wmd_vol1.pdf > > > > > > pp 138-180 gives a detailed account with actual figures which > would > > > even impress your former teaching colleague. > > > > > > The Oil For Food program was clearly corrupted so that Saddam > could > > > acquire hard currency. From 1996 to 2002, more than $11 billion > was > > > diverted from the Oil For Food program. $11 billion skimmed from > a > > > program which brought $14 billion is a payday any New Jersey > > > politician would be impressed with. > > > > > > Regarding the Al Qaeda claims, I haven't seen any member rolls > to > > > see what the American impact was. However, Captain Caveman > himself, > > > in his stump speech for Kerry Friday, said "over 15,000 of our > > > people have been killed and tens of thousands injured". > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/5529i > > > > > > Now that I have cited proof for you, can you cite one primary > > source > > > on Iraq which says we have been defeated in any battles? (sorry, > > > your propaganda films don't count as primary sources) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. 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