Dan, Wish I'd bookmarked the letter; however, I think it was Tony
wrote a great piece about the sense of connection this group of
contributors provides, whether or not we agree. That being said, and
we've yet to meet in person, we clearly disagree on this topic.
Re: US manifest destiny; I suggest our golden age to have been the
40's through mid 60's. We'll never know what loss we
suffered with
Kennedy's assassination, there is little doubt that Johnson
picked up
the torch, ushering in an era of great hope and social good; but then
the wheels fell off. Nixon introduced us to a period (and I maintain
the Republicans continue to this day) where double speak, double
dealing and dirty tricks became de rigueur in the ordinary dealings
of the executive branch, which made suspect whether our hearts were
any longer in the right place, while our heads appeared clearly to be
up our collective ass.
Sorry Dan, but history tells us too many do like war and I suspect
the cold war left many in command just itching to use their new
toys. I think Iraq to be about old men using young men for what
they'd thought to be a slam dunk to a quick buck–it's the
oil
stupid.
As to methodology, one of the reasons you don't give this job to
a `C' student is because of the nightmare awaiting us in
parts of the
world where we've consistently chosen the wrong guys as
allies–it's
the nuance stupid.
It's not enough to ask "will Iraq work?" It's time
we go beyond
identifying evil empires and cherry picking friends and foes,
it's
time we do away with lying to friend and foe and it's way past
time,
that if we're to champion democracy abroad, we institute it
here–it's
about having our heads, hearts and souls in the right
place–stupid.
Till we do these things, that light at the end of the tunnel looks
increasingly, to me, like a great big freight train; let's hope
we
don't run out of time while peering into the darkness.
Skip Bernstein
--- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "dfsavgny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I really didn't want to get into this, but the last reply just got
> me. I will not debate the war. No one likes it and I was
aprehensive
> about even a valid pre-emptive strike despite my post 9/11 fears.
> However, Skip, whatever our faults here in the US, I find nothing
> sad. I also refute your contention about US manifest destiny; I do
> not believe that it true for the past century. Every war or proxy
> battle we have fought in this century, whether right or wrong, was
> for philosophical and not geopolitcal reasons. Our hearts were in
> the right place but our heads may have been up our ass. No one
likes
> war, least of all the people it falls to fight it, including the
> generals. Some would have (and tried to) had us not fight WWII.
Over
> the years we have tried to listen to our fore fathers'
warnings "not
> to meddle in European affairs." I thought from the beginning that
> Iraq was more about strategic position rather than WMDs. Say what
> you want, no one, not the UN, not France, not Russia, no one,
> disagreed about their existence; only the methodology of what to
do.
> Will Iraq work? I don't know, but if it does we will all look back
> differently. Should Iran be next? Thank God I am not in charge. I
> never served in the military. I do not look for conflicts lightly
> recognizing that someone will have to shed their blood. Hopefully,
> if called, I would be man enough to serve or refuse to serve and
> suffer the consequences if that's where my conscience led me. We
all
> wish that it was an indentifiable country that attacked us. That
> would be easy. Two small nuclear devices have kept us kamikazee
free
> for 64 years. While it is healthy to question your government
> (please don't question Jefferson, he was a two-face bigot who would
> have this country in eternal civil war), don't look past the good
> this country and its people have done. It was the European powers
> carving up of the Middle East and Africa that gives rise to many of
> the problems still in existence today, most notably, at least in
> Africa, the French (ugh!). Even today, the US gives more
> humanitarian aid to Africa than all other countries combined. Can
we
> do more, certainly. Sorry, but I find little sad about this
country,
> problems yes, but nothing sad. I may be a fool, but we are that
> light on the hill. I am not popular in Europe, but Europe died long
> ago.
>
> --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "SkipDragon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > There is a sad element to America's mythology of self; its
> > wholehearted unquestioning acceptance of a doctrine of manifest
> > destiny, which views the world as ripe for the taking. Sadly it
> is
> > this view that our `C' student president seems to embrace as
> > justification for preemptive war. As the last great power it is
> > George's view that real men must do what men must do, no room for
> > nuance, subtlety or alliance; rather this is the time to fulfill
> > America's promise.
> >
> > Unfortunate news for our over achieving `C' student, is that
> > this style of governing only worked when time, space and economic
> > self-sufficiency provide us relative advantage. For despite
great
> > reviews and jingoist self-congratulations and despite a surfeit
of
> > natural resources, this nation has never been all that clever or
> > resourceful. Our outdated business model reinforced by myth of
> > `can do', every man an island, survival of the strongest and
> > damn the
> > torpedoes can't match European and Asian models of cooperative
> > tasking to achieve a greater societal good.
> >
> > Sadly we've become legends as dinosaurs in our own time. For
> > those of you still enamored of the might of the last `super
> > power',
> > consider this, no nation no matter how powerful can turn its back
> on
> > the rest of the world, when that world possesses 95% of mankind.
> >
> > It is a numbers game.
> >
> >
> > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "jerseyjohn99"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Skip,
> > >
> > > you make it seem coincidental that these guys all happened to
> board
> > > a plane at the same time intending harm against "The Great
> Satan".
> > > Is it also coincidental that there have been NO homicide
> bombings
> > in
> > > Israel since the funding for them dried up when a peaceful old
> man
> > > was found hiding in a rathole on the outskirts of Tikrit?
> > >
> > > Shall we restore Iraq to its rightful dictator & allow the
> people
> > of
> > > Israel to suffer again?
> > >
> > > --- In AsburyPark@yahoogroups.com, "SkipDragon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Nineteen really stupid and naïve guys from 4 different
counties
> > > > decide to collect their expected reward of a harem of virgins
> and
> > > > throw their lives away by killing 3000 innocents.
> > > >
> > > > That act of lunacy forces the `peaceful' United States to
> > > > invade, conquer and determine the destiny of a 5th nation not
> > > party
> > > > to this horrible event. What did I miss?
> > > >
> > > >
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