Hi! I sometimes have better luck with cli than graphical environment. To be honest Orca seldom comes up with a working braille environment for me. ANd I have to create a special key file for the burlap if its not there. Otherwise I have to fiddle around with tons of settings to make braille work as I want it. In cli it just works. And I can review the screen how I want to and I never have any issues with brltty there. /A
> 13 apr. 2022 kl. 15:24 skrev Linux for blind general discussion > <blinux-list@redhat.com>: > > I just fired up Thunderbird to check and yes. I have to tab past the > calendar, the search bar, then the list of folders, then to the specific > message I want. Okay that's 4-5, not 10 tabs....but that's on a brand new > config however. To me...that is less effficient than pulling down my premade > .muttrc and typing mutt then I'm straight into the inbox with zero flufff > like a search field, or a calendar or something getting in the way at all. > yes. I can disable all that stuff. But on first run it is there. It's there > and prompting you to set up a new account right away without, at least when I > was checking it and this may be DE and WM specific, a way to get to the > options menu to declutter Thunderbird's interface without either going > through or quitting out of account setup. > > don't want a calendar at first boot. if I want to search messages I'll > deliberately go and start a search, I don't want or need a search bar > hovering right above my folder that I need to tab through to get to my > emails, or a message pane. Just give me the list of messages and let me > config Thunderbird how I want, without a ton of stuff getting in the way, > Thunderbird people...See to me, by default, Thunderbird is cluttered with > stufff I, personally, don't need. For my use case, Mutt is simpler and > easier. The key binds make sense. M for a new mail, R to reply, D to delete, > and so on. Yes I had to add urlview to get URLs from a message but that is a > simple process (at least for me) of pasting two lines into a file, saving, > and quitting that can be done with a graphical text editor. > > On that note, I'll give a shout out to Micro for being a text editor that > actually has sensible shortcuts. Much as I love Vim, the shortcuts are as you > pointed out, all over the place as far as a : then something. It makes sense > once you grab the hang of it, sure. But....for beginners it's a learning > curve, but the commands do make sense, :wq to wirite changes and quit the > file for example. Chryis's stuff follows the desktop keybinds as much as is > possible as well > > On that note though each WM/DE does things differently, see opening apps up > in Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, etc. The huge advantage CLI has (at least for me) > is I don't have to deal with desktops and their varying A11Y standards, such > as Mate freezing up when a Chromium app is exited (or on my laptop, anything > relaly...I think I need to just nuke and go with something decent there...) > or Gnome's control center or Cinnamon or....I know I'll have Fenrir or > espeakup working in one particular way that I can learn without having to > fight with a desktop or WM's idea of what shortcuts are best, or deal with DE > or Wm maintainers who aren't up to speed or able to/willing to fix A11yY > issues. > > Yes for your average, every day user I'd agree that graphical desktops are > better, but I'd also argue that using the CLI for things doesn't really hurt. > I mean, 99% of tutorials start with open a terminal and type this... so a bit > of CLI knowledge is, I'd say just as useful as being able to use a desktop. > No you don't have to be a power user who lives in a CLI only world, but at > the same time CLI has its advantages as does a desktop though. > > See if more CLI apps have sensible key binds...I'll recommend them. Nano is > horrific for this as far as that goes, a lot o the older software absolutely > has key binds all over the place. I feel like there needs to be a giant list > of CLI stuff with sensible key binds as well for easy reference. > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 08:32:59AM -0400, Linux for blind general discussion > wrote: >> so for some things, a CLI program is better and simpler with less work >> involved (for example on Mutt I can just open up my Blinux list folder, hit >> end, R, type then y to send, no need to tab 10 times then enter then ctrl+r >> then ctrl+enter to send this email), ... >> >> >> Where do you get all the tabbing 10 times and all that extra work? You seem >> to have a highly unusual concept of how graphical email programs work. For >> example, using Thunderbird, I was able to open up just my inbox, press the >> shift+tab key once, which seems to be necessary only because of a focus bug, >> press end to get to the bottom of the list, then enter on the message I >> wanted to read, this one in this case, select the exact text I wanted to >> quote above and nothing more, press control+r to reply, edit the quote ever >> so slightly, just to add the ... at the end, go down to the bottom to write >> underneath the quote to answer the question, just as I would in any text >> editor, and when I'm ready to send the message, after proofreading of >> course, which I always do, but that's an editor thing, not something >> specific to email, I then just press control+enter to send the message. I >> have very easy to use conversation threading, full navigation capabilities >> that I normally see in a web browser, links just open up in the default >> browser without making me have to jump through all kinds of configuration >> hoops just to get that working, and best of all, configuration itself takes >> about 2 minutes from 0 to two email accounts ready to read and respond to >> email, instead of taking weeks or even months to set up and having to try to >> figure out weeks later what is still going wrong and why as was my problem >> when I tried to use Mutt, although I admit it was years ago that I tried it >> and gave up on it, as I never could get external email on an IMAP server >> working correctly; the only way I could use Mutt at all was when I tried to >> run a home-based email server that was my user account @ >> some.dyndns-provider.domain, and of course that ended up going the way of >> the dodo because already at that time email was something that only >> corporate types and server operators with boxes that were much beefier than >> mine in power-sucking data centers with T1 pipes and static IP's could >> actually run effectively. I mean now I can just run my email from a VPS, >> which I do, but now we're back to the external email problem again, since I >> use IMAP on the server to let me use any client I want on any device. >> Regarding IMAP, I couldn't even get Alpine working with that, even though >> the settings are supposed to be there; I just couldn't find them, and this >> was fairly recently. In Thunderbird, I just add a new account, and the worst >> case is that I may have to specify the IMAP and SMTP servers and ports >> manually. But even doing this takes far less time to set up on a new machine >> than text-based email, especially Mutt. I will grant you that of course I >> could just copy over configurations to a new machine, but that is not >> limited to Mutt, since Thunderbird and even the browsers have the ability to >> read saved config files that come from other machines. I'm just referring to >> first-run setup, or if I ever need to make any changes to the existing >> configurations, which is far easier to do in graphical email programs of all >> kinds. >> >> >> I think the real showstopper for me when it comes to text-based applications >> is the sheer inconsistency between applications. On my graphical desktop, I >> have certain functionality that just works no matter where I am or what >> application I'm using. For example, alt+f4 will close this window, >> shift+arrows will highlight text to be copied or cut in most cases, that is >> anywhere that text can be selected, then I have the standard control+x to >> cut, control+c to copy, then control+v to paste to the application where I >> want the text to appear, whether that's in the same application or a >> different one. In most cases, control+q also closes an application, and >> control+w closes the current window. These things all work 90% or more of >> the time. With text-based applications, there is much inconsistency. Just to >> give an example, control+x cuts selected text in most desktop applications, >> but it quits Nano, and in most graphical text editors, I press control+f to >> find something, this even works in browsers, but in Nano, I have to use >> control+w. What? And we're not even gonna talk about things like Vim, or the >> dreaded EMACS, or all the other text editors out there, with the exception >> of Micro, since it is on the path to rectify the consistency problem by >> using familiar keybindings for most things. The problem though is that the >> functionality I mentioned in Nano, control+x to quit and control+w to find >> something, are limited to Nano, Pico and I think it's called Pilot. Most if >> not all other text-based editors have their own keybindings that all work >> differently. This is pretty much fine once I have made all my choices of >> favorite apps and either got used to the differences and inconsistencies or >> reconfigured all their keybindings so that they're all the same, but for >> someone just sitting down in front of a computer for the first time just >> trying to edit a file or send an email, or even for someone doing this for a >> long time, the consistency of the graphical desktop applications and the >> functionality they share that is implemented in much the same way across >> applications makes me and many others feel more comfortable at the computer >> and certainly makes us more productive. >> >> ~Kyle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > _______________________________________________ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
