I wonder how fuels cells would compare to EVs if you compared sourcing
hydrogen from natural gas to generating electricity from natural gas.
That is, show the loss scenarios like this:
natural gas well > refine to hydrogen > compress & transport > fuel cell
> EV drive train
natural gas well > generate electricity > transmission > battery charge
& discharge > EV drive train
It might be that scenario that the Canadian consortium was imagining.
Still, it seems unlikely that the fuel cell scenario would be more
efficient, but it would be closer.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" <ma...@enviropolicy.com>
Sent: 04-Jun-20 9:34:47 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by science &
CO2 lies
That’s a great point.
Not taking away from the point:
- I’m not sure that your numbers are not old.
- Given the demand for non-household EVSE, people are charging using the grid
mix no matter what they use at home.
- as the mix of renewables to fossils on the grid change, most will be
charging when fossil resources are used in greater percentages. This will
change both diurnally and seasonally.
- As BEVs become more popular, I think that percentage of those buying energy
cleaner than the grid will drop to levels closer to the grid mix.
Again, your point is good, but the overall numbers I don’t think are as high as
you think. But I have no data on this.
- Mark
Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
On Jun 4, 2020, at 8:41 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
The #1 problem with most CO2 assessments of EV emissions is they take the
Grid mix (say 65% coal and Natural gas, etc) and apply that to the EV while
surveys show that 85% of EV buyers also *BUY* 100% clean electricity either
from their own solar panels, or by signing up for Wind from their utility.
They ignore the demographics of who buys EVs!
Saying that an EV runs on 65% fossil fuels is like saying I have an 18%
chance of dying from lung cancer because 18% of Americans smoke. I don’t!
.... and I don’t drive my EV on dirty electricity either.
Even taking the real grid mix of say 65% dirty, there are other factors.
First the EV consumes 1/3d of the energy as a gas car for the same
performance. Second lets say 1/2 of EV drivers actually buy clean energy.
Multiply all these factors, 1/3rd x 1/2 x 65% and you get about 10% as the
AVERAGE CO2 emissions compared to a gas car.
Use this to push back anytime you hear someone comparing EV's, the grid mix
and gas cars.
Bob
Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
-----Original Message-----
From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 10:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by science
So glad to see an article that clearly blasts the myth of fuel cells.
It's about time that people wake up and realize that you don't capture
hydrogen by swishing around large sacks on top of mountains.
On the other hand, to be more complete, I think the article (or some
article) should also talk about the amortized effects of manufacturing both
kinds of systems. I'm pretty sure that building a large battery has a larger
CO2 effect, not to mention other environment effects, than building a fuel
cell. I believe batteries still come out substantially ahead, and more so in
the future as the technology improves, but numbers are the best way to
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