It was interesting but I don't have a metric to compare it. Was he hooked up to a machine that would tell if he really was dead dead?
I know there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in my philosophy, but I still would like to see the physical causes ruled out before I give his state of mind credit for influencing his body after death. There is no causal connection, it is just an assumption bases on a belief system that this is what happens to people in a special state of mind after death. I believe in special states of mind, I just don't seen any connection yet between them and how fast a corpse rots. Medical people are as full of superstitions as the rest of us. Dr. Mitchell Levy was obviously taken by His Holiness's personal charm and was surrounded by super believers. I don't doubt that many things can be experienced in such a setting, but I can't take them at face value. When Levy claims that as a doctor he has no explanation for his continued body warmth I realize that he is not coming in with an unbiased mind. For one the body could have been heated up in warm water by his believer before he was brought in or as I said before, he may not have been completely dead yet. All sorts of weird shit has happened where a person declared dead gets up off of the autopsy table. So maybe something really interesting happened at his death. I really can't tell with the info I have from his report. He is not viewing it as a skeptic and this is appropriate since the believers at his death bed are advocates for the opinion that the guy was special and his non rotting is proof. Under those conditions I would not rule out monkey business. But the doctor obviously has. In this case the extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. But even then the assumption about the cause, if it is established that he rotted slower, that it is because of his special state of mind at death seems like a bit of a jump. As I said before there are physical reasons this can happen and we should explore them with experts in this field, not just a doctor's report. I don't have any idea how many dead bodies this doctor has experienced. Hopefully sometime in the future a guy like this will allow his body to be tested by an objective group of scientists so we can see if something unusual is going on. Then they can begin to look for the cause. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Oct 15, 2008, at 11:43 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > > > If a person is showing a slower rate of decomposition after death I > > think one of the first places to look would be their body's bacterial > > makeup. Perhaps certain diets promote or slow down decay due to > > alkaline acid balance and the type of bacteria that thrive in that > > internal environment. It is the internal bacteria that is the cause > > for a body's decay at first, right? > > > > The last thing I would consider was the state of mind of the person > > who died. There are so many other physical causes to rule out first > > if in fact this report is more than just the subjective opinion of a > > person who would like to see something special happening in a special > > person's death ala Yogananda's followers who made similar claims. > > > > The incorruptibility of the body is an attempt to see some concrete > > evidence that a person has achieved more than a pleasant state of > > mind. That they have achieved something magical. I don't believe we > > are close to this conclusion based on a person reporting that a body > > rotted slower. I would like to hear the opinion from that ghoulish > > group of forensic scientists who have a body decay farm. They are the > > experts on how fast a body decays and have quantified it. They would > > know if something unusual was going on in a person's decay rate under > > controlled conditions. > > Well listen to the last Karmapa's physicians comments and see what > you think. For rigor mortis not to set in for several days is quite > unusual: > > http://www.khandro.net/16Karmapa_80.htm > > (excerpt of above) > > "Even in death, His Holiness did not cease to amaze the Western > medical establishment At forty-eight hours after his death, his chest > was warm right above his heart. This was how it happened. > > "Situ Rinpoche [one of the younger tulkus] took me into the room > where His Holiness was lying. First I had to wash my hands completely > and put a mask on. And Situ Rinpoche walks in and puts his robe over > his mouth, as if even breathing might disturb the samadhi of His > Holiness. And he took my hand, and he put my hand in the center of > His Holiness' chest and then made me feel it, and it felt warm. > > "And it's funny, because since I had washed my hands in cold water, > my Western medical mind said, 'Well, my hands must still be a little > cold.' So I warmed my hands up, and then I said to Situ Rinpoche, > 'Could I feel his chest one more time?' He said, 'Sure,' and he > pulled down His Holiness' robe and put my hand on his chest again. My > hands were warm at this point, and his chest was warmer than my > hand. To check, I moved my hand to either side of his chest, and it > was cool. And then I felt again in the middle, and it was warm. > > "I also pinched his skin, and it was still pliable and completely > normal. Mind you, although there is some variation, certainly by > thirty-six hours, the skin is just like dough. And after forty-eight > hours, his skin was just like yours and mine. It was as if he weren't > dead. I pinched his skin, and it went right back. The turgor was > completely normal. > > "Shortly after we left the room, the surgeon came out and said, 'He's > warm. He's warm.' And then it became, the nursing staff was saying, > 'Is he still warm?' After all that had happened, they just accepted > it. As much as all that had happened might have gone against their > medical training, their cultural beliefs, and their religious > upbringing, by this point they had no trouble just accepting what was > actually occurring. > > "This is, of course, quite in keeping with traditional Tibetan > experience, that realized people like His Holiness, after their > respiration and heart have stopped [the outer dissolution], abide in > a state of profound meditation for some time [the 'ground luminosity' > that follows the inner dissolution,] with rigor mortis not setting in > during that period. > > "One thing I should mention is the quality of the room where he was > lying. The tulkus said, 'His Holiness is in samadhi' [i.e., resting > in the dharmakaya of ground luminosity]. What people experienced in > that room seemed to depend on varying levels of perception. > > I asked Trungpa Rinpoche about it. He said that when he walked into > that room, it was as if a vacuum had sucked out all the mental > obstacles. There was no mental chatter. It was absolutely still. > Everything was starkly simple and direct. He said that it was so one- > pointed that there was no room for any kind of obstacle at all. And > he said that it was absolutely magnificent. > > "My experience wasn't quite like that. To me, the air felt thin and > there was a quiet that was unsettling in a way. There was no > familiarity, no background noise. It was like being in some other > realm, one that was absolutely still and vast. It was just His > Holiness' body in the center of the room, draped in his brocade robe, > and you felt as if you didn't even want to breathe. That was my > experience. It felt as if anything I did would disturb that > stillness. My actions screamed at me. I mean, all of my coarseness > and vulgarity just shouted at me. > > "It felt as if in each movement I made toward his body, I was hacking > away at something thick to get through it. And everything I did was > clumsy. And from a normal point of view, it wasn't. I was just > walking. But there was an air of stillness, an awareness in that room > that was overpowering. I understood what Trungpa Rinpoche meant about > vacuum, because it felt like that. > > "After about three days, His Holiness samadhi was still continuing. > It was interesting, because the doctors and nurses were as concerned > as the younger tulkus that we leave his body there and not move it > until the samadhi ended. This was unusual, because ordinarily when > someone dies, hospital staff want to get rid of the body a quickly as > possible. That's just the way we do it in the West. > > "After three days, the samadhi ended. You could tell because His > Holiness was no longer warm, and rigor mortis finally set in. And > also the atmosphere in the room changed, becoming more normal . . . . > > "The entire experience had had very pronounced effects on everyone > involved, especially the non-Buddhists, who were the majority of > those there. Just to give one example, the assistant administrator, > one of the people who had been close to these events, one night was > reading in some of the books on Buddhism that someone had lent her. > She came to me the next morning and said the thing that she liked > about these books was that after reading them, they pretty much > matched some conclusions that she had come to on her own. They really > made sense to her. And so I think that people there made very > powerful connections with His Holiness and Buddhism. It will be > interesting to see who he brought in, even in his death . . . ." > ________________________________________________________________________ > _______ > > Reginald A. Ray's 1981 interview of Dr. Mitchell Levy is from Secret > of the Vajra World. Boston: Shambhala, 2001. >
