Thanks, Chadwell ji On 24 Nov 2016 3:26 am, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thought best to collect my thoughts before responding further. > > The problem with the links provided (and most from specialist nurseries, > growers and the like) is that such people (in good faith mostly - though it > is in the commercial interest of nurseries to list as many different > species & cultivars as possible, as there are collectors of all available > examples of favoured genera e.g. Androsace, Primula, Iris, Meconopsis, > Geranium etc.). They will buy if the species name or cultivar name is > different to what they already have (or think they have). > > The problem is that hardly any of those running nurseries, websites (even > the top horticulturists in the UK) have any proper training in how to > identify plants - to be fair, often few, if any reference books or other > resources exist. They rely on the name something arrived at. > > *The result is, as my own informal research suggests, a high proportion of > plants are misidentified in cultivation (just as a significant proportion > of plants seen during surveys and trips to the Himalaya are > misidentified). For plants under names of species found in the Himalaya > (some plants grow in the Himalaya and other regions of the world, so the > example may not have originated in the Himalaya) I judge at least 50% to be > misidentified (and I do not mean because they are hybrids, another > complication in cultivation) - I have checked plants from nurseries and > sources of seed, commercial and botanic garden index semina.* > > *Thus, we cannot expect the situation with Androsace in cultivation to be > any different.* > > *Of the links provided, the final two do not come close to the others and > in my opinion are not Androsace globifera.* > > *As to the identity of the plant photographed in VoF - this, as I have > already stated is definitely not A.mucronifolia. It might be A,globifera > but some sources say it should have flower-stalks (others like 'Flowers of > Himalaya' say short-stalked or stalkless. It is the most likely candidate.* > > *There has long been confusion with the mat and cushion-forming species.* > > *Interestingly, the image of A,globifera in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' > shows flowers with darker central parts, as does the much larger photo of > this species in 'Portraits of Himalayan Flowers' (T.Yoshida), along with > one of the images in his 'Himalayan Plants Illustrated'.* > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *To:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]> > *Cc:* efloraofindia <[email protected]>; Prashant awale < > [email protected]>; Dr. Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>; Dinesh > Valke <[email protected]>; Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>; D.S > Rawat <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, 18 November 2016, 4:49 > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256943] VoF Week: Primulaceae - > Androsace mucronifolia Watt > > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > To me it appears close to Androsace globifera as per the following images > (though I may or may not be correct): > http://www.phytoimages.siu. edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/ Primulaceae_Androsace_ > globifera_93803.html > <http://www.phytoimages.siu.edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_Androsace_globifera_93803.html> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/ wiki/File:Androsace_globifera_ 3.JPG > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Androsace_globifera_3.JPG> > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Androsace_globifera#/media/ > File:Androsace_globifera.jpg > <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androsace_globifera#/media/File:Androsace_globifera.jpg> > https://www.nargs.org/plant/ androsace-globifera > <https://www.nargs.org/plant/androsace-globifera> > http://phytoimages.siu.edu/ imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_ > Androsace_globifera_70529.html > <http://phytoimages.siu.edu/imgs/Cusman1/r/Primulaceae_Androsace_globifera_70529.html> > http://garden.org/plants/view/ 133923/Rock-Jasmine-Androsace- globifera/ > <http://garden.org/plants/view/133923/Rock-Jasmine-Androsace-globifera/> > http://kallima.sk/species.php? plant=51 > <http://kallima.sk/species.php?plant=51> > > > On 17 November 2016 at 19:07, C CHADWELL <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Dr Rawat has kindly sent me the description of Androsace garwhalicum. The > photos taken in the > VoF are definitely not A.mucronifolia. > > We are currently checking through Androsaces recorded from India. There > are quite a number of taxa > where confusion/uncertainty exists. I am in agreement with Dr Nasir in > 'Primulaceae' (Flora of Pakistan) that > past records for this A.globifera in "the Punjab" are misidentifications. > One of the specimens seems to be > Androsace baltistanica whilst the other is likely to prove to be. I am > currently attempting to familiarise > myself with the latter species and how it is distinguished from similar > species in Ladakh. A.baltistanica was > not know to Stewart in his 'Annotated Catalogue...' > > I do not understand on what basis Androsace garwhalicum has become a > Primula! Is there DNA > or other non-morphological evidence to support this new combination? It > looks like an Androsace to me..... > > I am attempting to familiarise myself with this species and how to > distinguish it from similar species and work > out which species it is likely to have been mistaken for in the past. In > the description Dr Rawat sent there is a key > distinguishing it from A.selagini (which I have not heard of) which is > apparently another new name (though no > author is given) for A.selago Hook.f. & Thoms. > > Since A.selago is not recorded for Uttarakhand or indeed Nepal though is > found in Bhutan, Sikkim & Chumbi, > it would have been helpful if the authors had told us how to distinguish > this new species from those already > recorded from the region such as A.globifera, which at present I think it > the most likely species it was mistaken > for in the past. Given the challenges this genus present and lack of good > reference descriptions such information > would have been useful for all those concerned. > > According to 'Flora of Bhutan' (Vol 2 Part 2, 1999) Grierson & Long felt > that A.selago and A.tapete are variable species > which appear to intergrade. Further research is needed on their > distinction. Treatment as varieties may be more > appropriate. > > *Please can group members look out for an make a special effort to > photograph Androsaces in the years to come* > *both from higher and lower altitudes as knowing where > (geographically-speaking) at what altitude and in which* > *habitats, each species is found, represents meaningful information - as > well as helping work out abundance (or* > *not). Good close-ups of flowers (incl. petals & sepals) along with > foliage will contribute towards us being able to* > *distinguish between similar species with greater certainty.* > > *I personally, would be particularly pleased to view good close-ups of > Androsaces from Ladakh to help me become* > *clearer about the differences between A.baltistanica, A.robusta and > A.muscoidea in that region. I am reasonably clear* > *about A.mucronifolia, A.sempervivoides, A.septentrionalis & A.thomsonii > which are also recorded from Ladakh.* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *To:* efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <[email protected]>>; Prashant awale <[email protected]>; > Dr. Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>; Dinesh Valke < > [email protected]>; Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>; > chrischadwell261@btinternet. > com <[email protected]>; D.S Rawat < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, 17 November 2016, 12:38 > *Subject:* Fwd: [efloraofindia:126083] VoF Week: Primulaceae - Androsace > mucronifolia Watt > > Forwarding again for Id assistance please. > Some earlier relevant feedback: > I am confused by this. It certainly appears to be an Androsace rather > than a Primula. > > I can say with confidence that it is *not* Androsace mucronifolia - in > fact the plant from VOF is not remotely similar to A.mucronifolia. This > species is only > recorded from Aghanistan to Kashmir, so would not be expected in VOF > anyhow. > > The image does seem to match the posting named as Androsace garhwalica > (Primula garhwalica). *I am not familiar with this species. Clearly it > has been named by Indian botanists. Could someone tell me the publication > this species was described in and how it is distinguished from related > species?* -- > > From Chris Chadwell ji. > See more discussions in another thread at VOF Week: : Androsace > mucronifolia? en-route Hemkund sahib > <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/UKNhLijs5b0> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Dr Pankaj Kumar* <[email protected]> > Date: 25 August 2012 at 18:56 > Subject: [efloraofindia:126083] VoF Week: Primulaceae - Androsace > mucronifolia Watt > To: [email protected] > > > Androsace mucronifolia Watt in J. Linn. Soc. 18:381. t. xiv B. 1882. > > Family: Primulaceae > Distribution: E. Afghanistan, N.W. Himalaya, W. Tibet, W. China > Current pic taken on way to Hem Kunt Sahib. > > > <https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Y__GadW_aQg/UDjSUi4PIzI/AAAAAAAABWE/46ykkrBtQ8A/s1600/ANDROSACE+MUCRONIFOLIA.JPG> > > -- > > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
