does not seem to be locked yet Usha di
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Giby Kuriakose <giby.kuriak...@gmail.com>wrote: > Is it just the glabrous and hairy characters that differentiate these 2 > species or some other characters as well? > > > > Regards > Giby > > > > > > On 19 April 2012 14:15, Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> By the way, this Spiranthes issue was raised by Sid and his PhD >> supervisor here at HK and very interestingly, just few days before meetign >> Prof. Sun and discussing with Sid, the plant flowered here in our green >> house. I asked Dr. Stephan Gale whats the difference and he said sinensis >> is glabrous and hongkongensis is hairy. So all these created big doubts in >> my head as I know very well that Indian ones are not glabrous at all. Lets >> hope to come to some conclusion soon. My preliminary doubts say that S. >> australis should be accepted name with hongkongensis as one of the >> synonyms, but Prof. Sun says they all are different. >> Pankaj >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> I wish we keep the thread an academic one only. Here is the information >>> I have: >>> >>> In Flora of British India the species was described under the name >>> Spiranthes australis (R. Br.) Lindl., A species name (rather combination) >>> proposed in 1824, based on Neottia australis R. Br. (1810), a species >>> supposed to have pubescent inflorescence spike (it is also supposed to have >>> pubescent bracts and floral parts partly as I read from other sources). >>> >>> Spiranthes sinensis (Pers.) Ames, is a name (rather combination) given >>> in 1908, based on Neottia sinensis Pers. (1807), a species described from >>> China and differing in glabrous spikes (and bracts and floral parts). >>> >>> It has recently been considered by most authors (including Flora of >>> China, Flora of Pakistan, etc.) that these two taxa are synonyms, and as >>> basionym of latter is dated earlier, Spiranthes sinensis is accepted name. >>> >>> It must be remembered that it is matter of taxonomic judgement (and not >>> a simple issue of names), as the two species were originally described as >>> distinct species (they have distinct types). For those who consider the >>> differences are not enough would treat them under single species S. >>> sinensis. Those who think (like original authors) that differences are >>> sufficient, and are also trying to detect further differences to strengthen >>> their distinct identity, would consider them as two separate species. I >>> think Pankaj Sahni ji is just trying to do that, trying to settle the >>> riddle, and he being a world renowned Orchid specialist is both qualified >>> to do that. More so he owes the duty of resolving it for us. Let us >>> appreciate that. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> Retired Associate Professor >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Pankaj Oudhia >>> <pankajoud...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> Just found that this important thread has converted into personal ego >>>> issue. There is nothing personal. I was just quoting the reference >>>> literature as Gurcharanj ji always suggest. Will be happy if the members >>>> can throw more light on the topic we are discussing instead of personal >>>> issues. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:46 AM, Pankaj Kumar >>>> <sahanipan...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> hehehehe.... thank you sir... >>>>> I am here till I am alive... :) >>>>> Pankaj >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Gurcharan Singh >>>>> <singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Pankaj Sahni ji >>>>>> Hamen Iss Group menh aap ki bahut zarurat hai >>>>>> Bhaghwan apne bhagton ko naraz nahi karen gai. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>> >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>> sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey bhagwaan utha le mujhko...... >>>>>>> Often is used here because earlier authors used it saying sinensis >>>>>>> OFTEN has hairs.... >>>>>>> So Mrs Barretto said the one which often has hairs are hongkongensis >>>>>>> and not sinensis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Pankaj Oudhia < >>>>>>> pankajoud...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Quoting the original text >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Since it *(i.e.Spiranthes honkongensis)* was first described, this >>>>>>>> species has largely been ignored >>>>>>>> by subsequent authors who have referred it to synonymy of Spiranthes >>>>>>>> sinensis. However, Hu and Barretto (Chung Chi J. 13(2): 4–6. 1976) >>>>>>>> identified the often densely glandular pubescent rachis, glandular >>>>>>>> pubescent >>>>>>>> floral bracts and sepals, and the broad, distinctly 3-lobed stigma >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> clear morphological characters that distinguish it from S. sinensis. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> "Often densely glandular pubescent rachis" is for S. honkongensis >>>>>>>> not for S.sinensis. "Often" is with meaning in this line. I repeat >>>>>>>> Often is >>>>>>>> not synonym for Always. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>>> sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a reason why I said that. Because, >>>>>>>>> 1. People think that Spiranthes sinensis is often pubescent so >>>>>>>>> they described both glabrous one and the non glabrous one as S. >>>>>>>>> sinensis. >>>>>>>>> 2. But according to the original descriptions only the glabrous >>>>>>>>> one should have been Spiranthes sinensis. >>>>>>>>> 3. On the contrary, Spiranthes australis and Spiranthes >>>>>>>>> hongkongensis are pubescent and sometimes even with glandular hairs. >>>>>>>>> So the >>>>>>>>> plant with hairs from India cant be sinensis. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>>>> sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a reason why I said that. Because, >>>>>>>>>> 1. People think that Spiranthes sinensis is often pubescent so >>>>>>>>>> they described both glabrous one and the non glabrous one as S. >>>>>>>>>> sinensis. >>>>>>>>>> 2. But to the original descriptions only the glabrous one should >>>>>>>>>> have been Spiranthes sinensis. >>>>>>>>>> 3. O >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Pankaj Oudhia < >>>>>>>>>> pankajoud...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. I am quoting your two statements from this thread. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Earlier >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "S. sinensis is not supposed to be pubescent originally. But >>>>>>>>>>> your plant seems pubescent." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Often densly pubescent hairs with reference to sinensis which >>>>>>>>>>> was often present with densely pubescent hairs." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Both are not same quotes. Isn't it? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>>>>>> sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It has been written in different sense sir. Often densly >>>>>>>>>>>> pubescent hairs with reference to sinensis which was often present >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> densely pubescent hairs. >>>>>>>>>>>> So they made a new species of the one which had hairs. >>>>>>>>>>>> I have not met Mrs Barretto but happened to have met Dr Sun >>>>>>>>>>>> recently. She is the one who evoked my doubts. >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Pankaj Oudhia < >>>>>>>>>>>> pankajoud...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flora of China Vol.25. Chapter on Spiranthes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj Oudhia >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar < >>>>>>>>>>>>> sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which reference are you talking about? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 8 December 2009 00:47:53 UTC+8, Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sending Spiranthes sinensis (Pers.) Ames (syn: S. australis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (R. Br.) Lindley) from Manali, HP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj ji and Nayan ji, one of the very few orchids I know, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that too if it is correct identity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~**singhg45/<http://people.du.ac.in/%7Esinghg45/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com; >>>>>>>>>>>> pankajsah...@rediffmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>>>>>>> 6251 (mobile). Fax: +852 2483 7194 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com; >>>>>>>>>> pankajsah...@rediffmail.com >>>>>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>>>>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com; >>>>>>>>> pankajsah...@rediffmail.com >>>>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>>>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Office: >>>>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Residence: >>>>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com; >>>>>>> pankajsah...@rediffmail.com >>>>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ********************************************************************** >>>>> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >>>>> Conservation Officer >>>>> >>>>> Office: >>>>> Orchid Conservation Section >>>>> Flora Conservation Department >>>>> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >>>>> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>> >>>>> Residence: >>>>> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >>>>> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >>>>> >>>>> email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com; >>>>> pankajsah...@rediffmail.com >>>>> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 >>>>> 6251(mobile). Fax: +852 >>>>> 2483 7194 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> ********************************************************************** >> "Taxonomists getting Extinct and Species Data Deficient !!" >> >> >> Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D. >> Conservation Officer >> >> Office: >> Orchid Conservation Section >> Flora Conservation Department >> Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation >> Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> >> Residence: >> 36C, Ng Tung Chai, Lam Tseun >> Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. >> >> email: pku...@kbfg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com; >> pankajsah...@rediffmail.com >> Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 >> (mobile). Fax: +852 2483 7194 >> > > > > -- > GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD > Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE), > Royal Enclave, > Jakkur Post, Srirampura > Bangalore- 560064 > India > Phone - +91 9448714856 +919947109987 (Mobile) > visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby > -- Usha di ===========
