Begin forwarded message:
From: Aaron Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: January 31, 2006 12:46:27 AM GMT+01:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Christopher Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, global-
[EMAIL PROTECTED], ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [GLOBAL-V6] Re: IPv6 Research/Not-for-profit Addressing
Let me maybe try to clarify Christopher Martin's point a bit.
I recently went through a similar situation and fortunately our
community network
achieved AS status. We are a meshed wireless network in Vienna,
Austria (http://funkfeuer.at). BUT we would not have been able to
do it without some help / intervention of a friendly ISP. The
barriers have in practice become to big for community projects to
become part of the regular internet.
One of the forerunners of the wireless community networks -
freifunk.net - therefore just took some reserved IP space :
104.x.x.x . Sad.
In my humble opinion it makes absolutely no sense hoard IPv6 space
and an AS number. These young networking fellows are actually
reinventing the way we think about the subject. It would be much
more interesting to give some IP space (hey wasn't it all about
having enough IP space?) to a very interesting experiment. Reality
will decide anyway if the community wireless net is technically and
socially feasible or no (so far it is in many different countries :)
And no - it is not competition. Because a client will want to buy
some kind of SLA - that is something that he/she will not be able
to buy with wireless networks. Especially not in an ISM band.
Please keep in mind what Van Jacobson et al recently said:
So if we want to think about where networking might be in 10 or
15 years, it behooves us to look at (r)evolution at the edge. [1]
Christopher: Just make realities! They will like it anyway, once
they understood it.
best regards,
Aaron Kaplan.
http://funkfeuer.at - mobile meshnetworking in Vienna
PS: yes i know, it was about IPv6 space in the first place, but it
is the same thing. Established organizations don't want young
experimenters/i.e. they make things prohibitively expensive. And
yes, Christopher, IMHO it probably makes sense to first get v4
working anyway, because every windows comp errr sorry every windows
user only knows v4. And you need users in the beginning so that the
mesh becomes dense.
---
[1]
"Making the World (of Communications) a Different Place",
David D. Clark, Craig Partridge, Robert T. Braden, Bruce Davie,
Sally Floyd,
Van Jacobson, Dina Katabi, Greg Minshall, K.K. Ramakrishnan,
Timothy Roscoe,
Ion Stoica, John Wroclawski and Lixia Zhang
On Jan 30, 2006, at 1:47 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
Hi Chris,
See below, in-line.
Regards,
Jordi
De: Christopher Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Responder a: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Fecha: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:22:34 +1100
Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Asunto: RE: IPv6 Research/Not-for-profit Addressing
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeroen Massar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 30 January 2006 10:56 PM
To: Christopher Martin
Cc: ipv6@ietf.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: IPv6 Research/Not-for-profit Addressing
The certainly do have options for IPv6 only. See:
http://www.apnic.net/docs/corpdocs/member-fee-schedule.html
Which means small: $2500 US which translates to $3750 AU.
Those membership levels assume much larger allocations than we
require. It
would be remiss of us to use our limited resources to acquire
assets which
we could only hope to use a tiny portion of. We need a modest,
portable
range.
Remember that the minimum prefix for IPv6 is /32.
What would be unfair is if a "non-profit" organization could get a
'cheaper' prefix than a commercial organization. Especially
because you
are in direct competition with them. That your business model
doesn't
give you enough funding doesn't mean that would become an option.
Then again politics on this planet seem to like those kind of
constructs.
Actually, there is no case of direct competition as the network:
* Won't provide any IPv4 access to the internet
I'm not sure to understand then how your users will use email and
other
services, which aren't yet available with IPv6 worldwide. Same for
lots of
web sites, which are only available with IPv4. Unless you have
plans for
doing some proxying ?
* Won't provide any 6-to-4 translation/bridging to the internet
6to4 is not a translation, is an automatic tunneling mechanism.
* Won't offer any guaranteed quality of service
For those who can afford a form of broadband it will be a
supplemental
service, while those who can't can still act as a peer on at
least some form
of network.
As a side note, the ISP industry worldwide is marching all over
the original
model of the internet, that being a peer-to-peer network, by
forcing DHCP
addressing on permanent services like cable and ADSL.
Not all, some realized already that this is not longer good even
for them
...
"Pricing" is globally mostly the same btw.
Is there address space made available for research purposes, or
is there
space set aside for not-for-profit use?
Your best bet is to contact AARNet (http://www.aarnet.edu.au),
they are
in Australia for research and education and already provide IPv6
connectivity. They might be able to help you out.
We have approached AARNet, however they require a peering
agreement to be in
place, but the requirements are a very steep hill to climb, needing
multi-megabit links in each state, which presupposes the
existence of a
network.
There is also at least one project which has received their own
IPv6
allocation and is also non-profit. Maybe OCCAID (http://
www.occaid.org)
can help you out.
Thanks, I will approach them.
Not sure if this is case for OCCAID, as the idea here is not to
provide
addressing space, but transit for those that can't get good
quality transit
from your own upstreams, which seems not to be your case ?
Thirdly there is an "Experimental IPv6 Allocation" policy:
See: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ipv6policy.html
Again, thanks for the info.
This is oriented to experiments, not really services. If it is a
trial
service, may work.
BTW: 6bone is dead per 6/6/6.
We are aware, and the ISPs in question are looking at connecting
to Telstra,
Optus and NTT's v6 trial networks.
They should be no longer trials !
Thanks for you replies.
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