This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies, I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you! Andrei
2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> > I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the > wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the > companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first. > mike > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko > <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that "using > timetables", > > or "using the gps to recreate transportation maps", or even "use a > > transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and > > nothing else", would be "without problem". And then, I got the answer of > > Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great > > chances that timetables would be considered "intellectual creations", and > > hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is > actually > > probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the > > plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site > > without authorization of their owner. So the "apparently, there would be > no > > problem" answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a "there should not > be > > any problem": Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would > like > > to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such > > minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, > the > > number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer > > from a lawyer here. > > But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to > get > > all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or > > anything to gather 20000 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the > assurance > > to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would > complain > > about what data I "stole" from them. > > > > And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single > company, > > on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like > > google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons > of > > companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely > > certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would > wake > > up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the > financial > > compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! > > Andrei > > > > > > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> > >> > >> In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are > >> allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another > >> issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in > >> france. I dont see why it would be a problem. > >> mike > >> > >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko > >> <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia > is > >> > more like a "journalistic" thing, so you are more free to put whatever > >> > you > >> > want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! > >> > And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any > changes > >> > in > >> > a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice > it > >> > one > >> > day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice > >> > anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to > >> > tell > >> > me if I legally can or not! > >> > Andrei > >> > > >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> > >> >> > >> >> I found a reference to albatrans here, > >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER > >> >> > >> >> just add this information to wikipedia. > >> >> > >> >> see also here : > >> >> http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around > >> >> > >> >> just add all the information you can there and we will see what > >> >> happens. > >> >> mike > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko > >> >> <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > Hi, > >> >> > what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific > about > >> >> > one > >> >> > agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And > >> >> > neither > >> >> > did > >> >> > I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, > until > >> >> > I > >> >> > have > >> >> > 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could > >> >> > give > >> >> > me a > >> >> > definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem > is > >> >> > no > >> >> > more about schedules. > >> >> > My question was only, wether we can use: > >> >> > - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their > web > >> >> > site's > >> >> > adress > >> >> > - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the > most > >> >> > lines, > >> >> > to position it on a map, > >> >> > - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, > >> >> > interurban, > >> >> > etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the > company's > >> >> > importance, and radius of operation. That's all! > >> >> > Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: > >> >> > - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ > >> >> > - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not > visible > >> >> > on > >> >> > their site, but on another site, > >> >> > http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html > >> >> > ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon= > >> >> > 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. > >> >> > These > >> >> > two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from > >> >> > their > >> >> > transport map available on their site, I admit it. > >> >> > - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be > seen > >> >> > on > >> >> > their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ -> then hit "nos lignes" > (not > >> >> > a > >> >> > separate web adress) > >> >> > > >> >> > I gave this example here, because this company happens to be > >> >> > precisely > >> >> > the > >> >> > type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of > >> >> > the > >> >> > few > >> >> > ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, > >> >> > over > >> >> > six > >> >> > months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to > >> >> > get > >> >> > any > >> >> > commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. > >> >> > As > >> >> > you > >> >> > may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of > >> >> > their > >> >> > headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to > >> >> > recieve > >> >> > too > >> >> > much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of > >> >> > company, > >> >> > I > >> >> > want to break: I would like to display at least something about > them, > >> >> > without them being able to complain. > >> >> > So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of > >> >> > headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, > >> >> > and > >> >> > amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to > display > >> >> > on > >> >> > transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, > >> >> > without > >> >> > having to ask permission to do so? > >> >> > Thanks > >> >> > Andrei > >> >> > PS: was that more specific than my previous message? > >> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Hi, > >> >> >> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be > >> >> >> specific. > >> >> >> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency > >> >> >> or > >> >> >> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. > >> >> >> mike > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko > >> >> >> <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> > Hello again, > >> >> >> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole > >> >> >> > transit > >> >> >> > data > >> >> >> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic > set > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to > know > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost > >> >> >> > places, > >> >> >> > far in > >> >> >> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say, > >> >> >> > headquarters' > >> >> >> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of > >> >> >> > "surrounding" > >> >> >> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by > >> >> >> > clicking > >> >> >> > a > >> >> >> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of > data > >> >> >> > about > >> >> >> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where > to > >> >> >> > search > >> >> >> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here > >> >> >> > of a > >> >> >> > trip I > >> >> >> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a > >> >> >> > transit > >> >> >> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon > >> >> >> > (West > >> >> >> > Birre > >> >> >> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about > >> >> >> > what > >> >> >> > was > >> >> >> > just > >> >> >> > 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no > matter > >> >> >> > how > >> >> >> > hard I > >> >> >> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit > >> >> >> > agencies > >> >> >> > that > >> >> >> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but > as > >> >> >> > much > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching > "their > >> >> >> > name" > >> >> >> > + > >> >> >> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might > >> >> >> > have > >> >> >> > found > >> >> >> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were > >> >> >> > available on > >> >> >> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put > these > >> >> >> > timetables > >> >> >> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is > not > >> >> >> > our > >> >> >> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I > needed > >> >> >> > : > >> >> >> > plan, > >> >> >> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or > database > >> >> >> > right. > >> >> >> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is > >> >> >> > another > >> >> >> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit > >> >> >> > data > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about > >> >> >> > their > >> >> >> > lines > >> >> >> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the > >> >> >> > authorization > >> >> >> > you > >> >> >> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and > extract > >> >> >> > anything > >> >> >> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper > authorization; > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a > gps, > >> >> >> > are > >> >> >> > free > >> >> >> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I > >> >> >> > think, > >> >> >> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about > this > >> >> >> > problem > >> >> >> > yet.) > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any > >> >> >> > permission, > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on > the > >> >> >> > osm > >> >> >> > (or > >> >> >> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or > the > >> >> >> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number > >> >> >> > (amount) > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if > >> >> >> > possible, > >> >> >> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know > in > >> >> >> > order > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a > >> >> >> > search > >> >> >> > related > >> >> >> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its > >> >> >> > transport > >> >> >> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more or > >> >> >> > less. > >> >> >> > Also, > >> >> >> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different > >> >> >> > categories: > >> >> >> > urban, > >> >> >> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average line > >> >> >> > length" > >> >> >> > is > >> >> >> > still too much data to be free of use. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front > page > >> >> >> > without > >> >> >> > asking permission to the site's owner? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at > >> >> >> > least > >> >> >> > be > >> >> >> > something you could systematicly say about all transit > agencies, > >> >> >> > wether > >> >> >> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without > any > >> >> >> > strong > >> >> >> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters' > >> >> >> > adress > >> >> >> > is > >> >> >> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then > >> >> >> > find > >> >> >> > another > >> >> >> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something! > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? > >> >> >> > Isn't > >> >> >> > it > >> >> >> > using > >> >> >> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of > the > >> >> >> > owner > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google > seems > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > have > >> >> >> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company > when > >> >> >> > you > >> >> >> > search > >> >> >> > for it - on google, but still... > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like > >> >> >> > that > >> >> >> > on > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it > could > >> >> >> > make > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the > >> >> >> > coverage > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could > be > >> >> >> > really > >> >> >> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And > >> >> >> > besides, > >> >> >> > it > >> >> >> > would > >> >> >> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with > >> >> >> > every > >> >> >> > single > >> >> >> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, > especially > >> >> >> > if > >> >> >> > they > >> >> >> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any > >> >> >> > reason > >> >> >> > they > >> >> >> > may have... > >> >> >> > Good night > >> >> >> > Andrei > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> > legal-talk mailing list > >> >> >> > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> >> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> James Michael DuPont > >> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania > >> >> >> flossk.org flossal.org > >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> legal-talk mailing list > >> >> >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > legal-talk mailing list > >> >> > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> James Michael DuPont > >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania > >> >> flossk.org flossal.org > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> legal-talk mailing list > >> >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > legal-talk mailing list > >> > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> James Michael DuPont > >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania > >> flossk.org flossal.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> legal-talk mailing list > >> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > legal-talk mailing list > > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk > > > > > > > > -- > James Michael DuPont > Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania > flossk.org flossal.org > > _______________________________________________ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >
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