Before anyone reads further down .. I wish to invoke one of the points on the mailing list page:
"Respect differences in opinion and philosophy Intelligent people may look at the same set of facts and come to very different conclusions. Repeating the same points that didn't convince someone previously rarely changes their mind and irritates all the other Readers" The following is simply my opinion - and I have taken some pains to make sure it doesn't directly attack anyone in particular. On to the post.. Well.. Since I have people in a rile anyway, I've come to the conclusion there is something else I'd like to say - some of you will probably agree with me, some of you will probably curse at me .. But as someone else said, I'll find some humor in that. So.. I'm going to get straight to the point.. and if it offends some people, particularly devs - hey .. You do a wonderful job at coding, but I think the below needs to be said. I could of course go hide behind another address, or something - but hey, if you want to kick me off the list or whatever.. Do what you need to. On to the point: - We are all in agreement, I think - that OpenBSD is absolutely kick ass software. It is very well maintained, in my opinion, very stable, and secure. - That also being said, as Darren pointed out below, we have a group of people on this list, in particular the devs (but others too I am sure) that have some serious UNIX skills. I personally, came from the Linux & Cisco world primarily, but Unix has its strengths too. (Linux is more.. tolerant of users errors). Everyone suffers from 'guruness' to a point, and gets intolerant of the same old question. I think it is safe to say, most folks around these lists have their own specific IT specialty, and have dealt with the frustrating repetitive annoyances that can come with user support. (No.. That CD-ROM tray is NOT a coffee cup holder..:) What I believe, is that OpenBSD has the ability, with the features it is concentrated around, specifically in the areas of IP redundancy, routing, and firewalling - to take a very big chunk out of Cisco, Juniper, etc. If it was properly put forward - it would be a huge victory for the Open Source movement, UNIX, and for OpenBSD itself. I do think however, and not only based on two things I saw today - that the community support in some cases, specifically from some devs - needs some work if this is ever to be realized. (I am referring to my issue, which I do admit to some fault in, and another users email I saw fly by, asking a simple question on if Cool'n'Quiet was supported - only to be told, upon asking if it was being considered for inclusion - to write the code himself) And of course, if you read the archives, many other instances. So to that.. I have a few statements: - If bug reporting is such a headache - write a bug handling system. I will even write it for you. There are many distro's with one, and it saves the devs problems with reports, and the users frustration at not sending them correctly - and the bitching from the list that goes with it. E-mailed bug reports is behind the times. - In general, I think some changes to the list rules, or the bug reporting, or whatever is required - and I'm not the one to say what is - I haven't been around here more then a year - would go a long way towards not scaring off new users, who may turn out to be valuable resources later. Communities are after all, the life blood of Open Source software. - I would put forward, as a suggestion - it is far better to ignore someone's question, if you can't bring yourself to type a couple polite lines, then to snarl back at them. People make mistakes (IE me), and may ask questions others already have - but let us remember - not everyone has been here 10 years, and may not read the archives to realize the question they ask has been asked 100 times (Just last week :) That is my simple 2 cents - love me, hate me, whatever. -D. > -----Original Message----- > From: Spruell, Darren-Perot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:03 PM > To: 'Wolfpaw - Dale Corse' > Subject: RE: OpenBSD Kernel Crash in uvm_fault or > uvm_rb_remove (not quite sure which it originates from) > > > From: Wolfpaw - Dale Corse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > You were told by a developer that what you sent was not useful. > > > > > > And now you whine that life is unfair and you are oppressed. > > > > > > If what you are after is a shiny, happy computing experience > > > with a loving and dedicated support staff there to coddle > > > your every partial bug report and politely ask you for more > > > information and refer to you as Sir or Mr. Wolfpaw, you are > > > using the wrong OS. > > > > Not really - my point still somewhat remains - I was not claiming > > things should be all shiny and nice, but honestly, I would > submit that > > if someone tries to submit a bug report, and may be doing it wrong, > > hostility isn't required - a simple - hey your not doing > this right.. > > might be more conducive of a positive response from folks that have > > not submitted a crash report before. That's all I was trying > > to point out - I admit I made an error in not reading > > the screen fully.. But not realizing that, I would say > > its fairly understandable to see why one would get a hostile > > response from someone who doesn't realize they have committed > > a taboo. > > Yes, you're right. In a more perfect world, each interaction > with a user would follow a polite line and feelings wouldn't be hurt. > > With OpenBSD, you deal with people who have serious jobs and > serious skills in Unix - we're talking that some of the > developers have been using UNIX longer than I've been alive. > And they've been developing for UNIX longer than I've even > known about computers. Your crack about offending the > guruness couldn't have been more on target. (Not to > offhandedly grovel at anyone's feet, there there is an > extremely intelligent group of people > here.) > > The time for extreme politeness on an incomplete bug report > ended about 10,000 incomplete bug reports ago. Now the devs > are tired, underpaid, busy and snap at people. Its a reality > that we deal with and move on from in the community. When you > get snapped at, grin and bear it and don't take things > personally. You can always leave if you don't like the > treatment. Or you can learn from your "mistakes" and you'll > mesh better. Some people don't like that attitude, but for > me, as long as I'm getting good software and invaluable > knowledge and experience, I can tolerate anything. > > > > Quit feeling sorry for yourself. If you truly want to help, > > > recreate the crash, send a full bug report chock full of > > > useful and required information, and go on with life. > > > > No idea what caused it, so its not possible for me to > recreate it.. As > > I said before, if there is other information (such as > > ddb.log) somewhere on the machine that I can send in, I > would happily > > do so. > > We've all dealt with these kind before. It'll happen again, > and you'll just want to be ready next time. crash(8) will > help. If you don't know how, research (archives, etc.) how to > set up a serial console for debugging. Then you can > copy/paste your ps/trace into an email along with the dmesg > and so forth. Makes it a bit easier. > > Regards, > > DS
