Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:27:40 -0700, Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 02:37:46PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> The first set of comments I have is related to efficacy, and,
>> perhaps, the notion of fairness.  There is a fundamental difference
>> between a technical committee and a social committee: a technical
>> issue is likely to be far less subjective

>  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=162;bug=367709
>  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=177;bug=367709

> Ruling based on the technical details of a question is apparently no
> defense against accusations of subjectivity anyway.  Nor are any of
> our existing poor methods for dealing with social problems any less
> subjective, so I don't think this is a reason not to proceed.


Err, anyone can be accused of anything at anytime, apparently,
 on Debian lists; so that is not really the point.

Also, why would you think anyone is talking about not proceeding?

The point is disputes over technical matters are inherently
 different from disputes of social issues.  If you don't see that, I
 suppose we have little basis for further discussion -- I am finding it
 hard to explain what seems like a self evident fact to me.

>> and while there are tradeoff aspects to technical problems, it is far
>> easier to come up with reasons for the trade offs, and a rationale
>> for selecting one option over the other, and do so in a relatively
>> objective fashion.

> The weighting of the trade-offs is always subjective.

But the rationale of the tradeoffs can be objective, as can an
 explanation for why more weight is being placed on one side or the
 other.

> The technical committee works not because it's more *objective*, but
> because it's configured so that its particular subjectivity is biased
> in favor of institutional stability (= the status quo), which means
> developers are more likely to be accepting of such decisions because
> on some level the TC's bias shares an overall alignment with their
> own.

In other words, we share a common technical "culture". This is
 not the case for social culture of the community; and this distinction
 would tend to make a difference, in my opinion.

>> I have seen no discussion on how the soc ctte is going to go about
>> ensuring that such cultural differences are noticed, or taken into
>> account in the resolution process; or that any thought has been taken
>> to address cultural diversity in the dispute resolution process.

> I frankly think this is a red herring.  The society that the social
> committee is purposed to serve is not Chinese, or American, or
> Middle-Eastern, or French, or Indian, or German, or Japanese; it's
> Debian as a society per se that must be served by this committee.

The issue is not whether the soc-ctte server the culture of
 outer mongolia, or not; the issue is whether the committee recognizes
 the cause belli;  failure to do so would make rapproachment more
 ... difficult. 

> Now each member of the project is going to bring his or her own
> cultural preconceptions to the table, to be sure[1], and the overall
> Debian culture is certainly going to reflect to some degree the mother
> culture of the predominant subgroups (whether that's predominance in
> terms of numbers, contributions, key positions held within the
> project, or volume of mailing list posts).  But I think it's the
> responsibility of each individual developer to integrate themselves
> into the overall community, and that it should not be the role of the
> social committee to inject an artificial measure of "cultural
> sensitivity" beyond what the project as a whole is actually capable of
> sustaining.

I am not sure I agree that Debian as the melting pot is a viable
 idea. And I find the  concept of cultural hegemony (in other words,
 Debian culture is dictated by the predominant subgroups, everyone else
 better fall in line) mildly distasteful.

But if this is the will of the masses, I suppose I must give in.

> And OTOH, I think to some degree recognition of cultural differences
> falls out *naturally* from any social committee whose charter includes
> rapprochement instead of just judgement and sentencing.  If
> rapprochement is your goal, all the cultural background that
> contributes to explaining *why* an individual views a situation the
> way they do is much less important than understanding *that* they
> understand the situation in that way.

My point was that unless care is taken in ensuring the ctte
 diversity, the ctte might not even be aware that one of the disputants
 views a situation differently (and why they might not be open to
 explaining that); far less than knowing the reasons behind the views.

>> Are we planning on taking into account things like cultural
>> differences? Or is the decision going to be that the majority rule
>> (or the dominant culture) be the governing one?

Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 02:37:46PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> The first set of comments I have is related to efficacy, and,
>  perhaps, the notion of fairness.  There is a fundamental difference
>  between a technical committee and a social committee: a technical issue
>  is likely to be far less subjective

 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=162;bug=367709
 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=177;bug=367709

Ruling based on the technical details of a question is apparently no defense
against accusations of subjectivity anyway.  Nor are any of our existing
poor methods for dealing with social problems any less subjective, so I
don't think this is a reason not to proceed.

> and while there are tradeoff aspects to technical problems, it is far
> easier to come up with reasons for the trade offs, and a rationale for
> selecting one option over the other, and do so in a relatively objective
> fashion.

The weighting of the trade-offs is always subjective.

The technical committee works not because it's more *objective*, but because
it's configured so that its particular subjectivity is biased in favor of
institutional stability (= the status quo), which means developers are more
likely to be accepting of such decisions because on some level the TC's bias
shares an overall alignment with their own.

> I have seen no discussion on how the soc ctte is going to go
>  about ensuring that such cultural differences are noticed, or taken
>  into account in the resolution process; or that any thought has been
>  taken to address cultural diversity in the dispute resolution process.

I frankly think this is a red herring.  The society that the social
committee is purposed to serve is not Chinese, or American, or
Middle-Eastern, or French, or Indian, or German, or Japanese; it's Debian as
a society per se that must be served by this committee.

Now each member of the project is going to bring his or her own cultural
preconceptions to the table, to be sure[1], and the overall Debian culture
is certainly going to reflect to some degree the mother culture of the
predominant subgroups (whether that's predominance in terms of numbers,
contributions, key positions held within the project, or volume of mailing
list posts).  But I think it's the responsibility of each individual
developer to integrate themselves into the overall community, and that it
should not be the role of the social committee to inject an artificial
measure of "cultural sensitivity" beyond what the project as a whole is
actually capable of sustaining.

And OTOH, I think to some degree recognition of cultural differences falls
out *naturally* from any social committee whose charter includes
rapprochement instead of just judgement and sentencing.  If rapprochement is
your goal, all the cultural background that contributes to explaining *why*
an individual views a situation the way they do is much less important than
understanding *that* they understand the situation in that way.

> Are we planning on taking into account things like cultural
>  differences? Or is the decision going to be that the majority rule (or
>  the dominant culture) be the governing one?

Do you take into account cultural differences every time you send a mail to
a mailing list or reply to a bug report, or do you allow your cultural ideas
to dominate by virtue of your position of authority (as a package maintainer
or as a community "elder")?

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/

[1] There have been a number of mailing list threads over the past year that
have opened my own eyes to just how different American culture is from
French and Belgian culture in some ways, in spite of these countries
supposedly sharing a common overall Western heritage


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Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7

[Manoj Srivastava]

Hi,

Firstly, wearing my secretary hat, I have no objections to
 running votes for the soc-ctte membership, if we do decide such votes
 are how things will be done.

Now, taking the hat off, and speaking bare headed, I have a
 couple of comments to make.

The first set of comments I have is related to efficacy, and,
 perhaps, the notion of fairness.  There is a fundamental difference
 between a technical committee and a social committee: a technical issue
 is likely to be far less subjective, and while there are tradeoff
 aspects to technical problems, it is far easier to come up with reasons
 for the trade offs, and a rationale for selecting one option over the
 other, and do so in a relatively objective fashion.

A social committee resolving disputes has no such luxury.  In a
 sense, since a machine interprets the end results of technical problems
 (well, for the most part), we tend to speak in one language; but as
 Debian contributers come from varied and diverse backgrounds and
 cultures, the cultural differences have an impact on the disputes and
 also the perception of the resolution.

Differences in culture make the difference between commonplace
 conversation and unacceptable insults; there are various anecdotes
 about ocidental and mist eastern differences in something as simple as
 inviting a guest to the dinner table (us americans would be seen as
 horribly rude). An anecdote I tell deals with a young developer on an
 Indian mailing list somewhat rudely contradicting me about the Etch
 release; the other members jumped on him not because he was incorrect,
 nor necessarily because of his rudeness; but because a lack of respect
 from a younger person to an older person was unacceptable.

The age based distinction would make absolutely no sense for my
 American friends.

I have seen no discussion on how the soc ctte is going to go
 about ensuring that such cultural differences are noticed, or taken
 into account in the resolution process; or that any thought has been
 taken to address cultural diversity in the dispute resolution process.

Are we planning on taking into account things like cultural
 differences? Or is the decision going to be that the majority rule (or
 the dominant culture) be the governing one?

The second set of comments I have are about accountability (and,
 yes, this applies to the tech ctte as well). Who are the tech and soc
 ctte members accountable to? Is there any recourse to the membership,
 apart from overturning individual decisions via a GR, to counteract a
 committee (social or technical) that has turned wayward and out of
 control?



manoj
-- 
The girl who remembers her first kiss now has a daughter who can't even
remember her first husband.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 23:16:50 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
said: 

> Just nitpicking, but is our Condorcet method for running election
> suitable for voting when an (ordered) set of result is expected? Isn't
> it targeted at finding only one winner (if it exists)?  Not a big
> problem though: I guess if it's not suitable we can find an
> alternative method, but I definitely don't want a ballot with all
> possible permutation of resulting soc-ctte :-) Something to be looked
> for before the election though, or maybe Manoj can enlighten all us
> out of the box.

It should be relatively straight forward for Devotee to find the
 winner, take the winner out of contention the next round, find the next
 winner (ignoring any pairwise contests dealing with any candidate no
 longer in the contest), and continue until the number of candidates
 desired has been reached.

manoj
-- 
Moore's Constant: Everybody sets out to do something, and everybody does
something, but no one does what he sets out to do.
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 09:49:23AM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote:
> Robert Millan wrote:
> > 
> > Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him.
> 
> I have no problem with you forwarding a message.
> 
> I would caution you that it is likely you would be held responsible and
> liable for the content, but if it breaks no (un)written rules, you
> should be okay.
> 
> NB: I have not followed the Sven saga, though I have sampled a bit at
> some of the threads.
> 
> -- 
> John H. Robinson, IV  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  http  
> WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[
> as apparently my cats have learned how to type.  spiders.html  

Heh, can cats learn how to forward mail?  I could use a disclaimer like yours.

:-)

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Fwd: Social committee proposal: mediation or repression ?

[Robert Millan]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 08:03:09AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2007 at 07:32:15AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 10:03:56PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > Rationale
> > > -
> > > 
> > > There wasn't a huge amount of discussion about this; mostly people
> > > seemed to acquiesce to the way I put it, which is that we need some
> > > method for dealing with disruptive behaviour that lies between
> > > individuals asking for it to stop and expelling people.
> 
> In all the discussion i have seen about the social comittee, which i
> have, as you can imagine, followed with interest, there is something
> that disturbs me most.
> 
> All the  talks have been about how to elect members, and giving the SoC
> individual members the power to quickly take action (suposedly by
> warning or temporarily banning folk from lists).
> 
> This is indeed also how most DDs have seen the problem i was involved
> with over the last year, and some remarks, particularly those of Anthony
> Town about "definitive measures that cannot be contested" are indeed
> very disturbing.
> 
> Now, if your governement would be proposing a proposal like what is
> currently being proposed, many of you would be off screaming about
> police state and repression before prevention, not to mention attacks on
> freedom of speach over the censorship powers which have nothing to envy
> to the russian governement closing up news agencies or even repression
> and censorship from darker times.
> 
> I understand that most of us DDs don't really have much political
> conciousness, or most probably don't want to see their own dealings as
> being politically dubious, but this is indeed a very very disturbing
> path to walk.
> 
> In order to solve social dispute, the first step should always be
> mediation, and no, mediation is not trying to talk to the party you
> already judged guilty in order to make him be silent, and if this fails
> pass out punishement and unilateral judgements.
> 
> The first order of business in a social dispute is communication and
> negotiation. If a complaints arise, then the social comittee should
> investigate it, speak with both parties involved in the dispute, verify
> the veracity of those claims with facts and independent third parties,
> and try to discuss.
> 
> Hearing both parties is important, understanding what their grief are,
> and trying to find a middle ground acceptable to both. And only if this
> really fails, should action be taken. 
> 
> Furthermore, the social committee needs to be impartial, which i know
> can be difficult, and hiding their discussions in private channels is
> not going to help there, and brings again up the ghost of shady dealings
> and cabal decision.
> 
> So, what i believe is important in this, is for the social committee to
> have a clear mandate to negotiate and mediate first, before using
> repressive means, and maybe for each social committee member to take an
> oath of impartiality, fairness and will to solve issues in negotiation and
> mediation, just like real world judges do.
> 
> This is the only way to bring debian back again on the way to fun and
> friendliness, and the way to a police state that ian is proposing,
> altough nearer to the habits of DDs, is definitively not the way to go.
> 
> Friendly,
> 
> Sven Luther
> 

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Stephen Frost]

* Robert Millan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> As others have said, it is not fair to put on me the extra burden of recasting
> the message in my own words.  Plus, I don't think it does really archieve
> anything.

Then don't post it, and please stop this thread (by not replying
further).

Thanks,

Stephen


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Re: message from Sven Luther

[John H. Robinson, IV]

Robert Millan wrote:
> 
> Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him.

I have no problem with you forwarding a message.

I would caution you that it is likely you would be held responsible and
liable for the content, but if it breaks no (un)written rules, you
should be okay.

NB: I have not followed the Sven saga, though I have sampled a bit at
some of the threads.

-- 
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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 04:34:21PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Friday 29 June 2007 15:51, Robert Millan wrote:
> > Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods.
> > I'm merely the messenger, so don't blame me.  OTOH, I can understand
> > why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way.
> 
> I don't think you can say "I'm merely the messenger". If you decide to 
> forward any message from anyone who is banned from a particular list, you 
> assume responsibility for its content and the effects that that message 
> will have.
> Personally I do reserve the right to blame you for anything that _you_ 
> send to the list, be it written by yourself or forwarded on request of 
> somebody else (same goes for anybody else for that matter).
> 
> There is also no reason to accept the message as is. If there is anything 
> in the message that you feel is unsuitable for the list, you should 
> discuss that with Sven and, if at all possible, get him to change it, 
> before forwarding it. Again, by forwarding it _you_ take responsibility 
> for the content of the message.

Hi Frans,

I want to make it clear that I don't agree with the ban.  I don't intend
to start a discussion over this, but I think it's important to be honest,
so I had to mention that.

That said, I appreciate that you are taking a stance that is (at least
seemingly so) disconnected from your personal involvement in previous
conflicts with Sven.

I'll assume responsability for Sven's words if that's necessary for him to
speak.

Thank you

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 10:41:13AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
> [...] (if you're
> willing to) recast it in your own words, as your own statement, and maybe
> mention that you heard about it from Sven or whatever.  If you're not
> willing to do that then I seriously doubt it passed either of the other
> tests mentioned.

Hi Stephen,

As others have said, it is not fair to put on me the extra burden of recasting
the message in my own words.  Plus, I don't think it does really archieve
anything.

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 29 juin 2007 à 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan a écrit :
> Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
> slashdot way".

We don't negociate with terrorists.

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 11:04:01AM -0300, Guilherme de S. Pastore wrote:
> Em Sex, 2007-06-29 às 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan escreveu:
> > The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I
> > would find offensive or rude.
> 
> I personally think this has already been discussed ad nauseam for the
> past months, without any indication that a reasonable outcome would be
> possible - otherwise we wouldn't have got where we got, IMHO - and that
> it is an unnecessary burden on the project's productivity since the last
> settlements.

To clarify, in the message Sven doesn't talk about himself at all.  He just
makes points about his opinion on the "Social Committe" proposal.  They could
be points made by anyone else.

> > Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
> > slashdot way".  Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly
> > discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community.
> 
> I'm sorry, but in my dictionary that translates as blackmail. *THAT* I
> don't think the Debian Project or any of its members should accept. If
> he is overly prejudicial or distorts the facts in public, we might just
> as well respond to them, either with words or with actions. It's surely
> a lot of work and headache, but I think it's better than accepting these
> threats.

Please excuse me for not representing him properly in my previous mail.  He
asked me to clarify that this wasn't at all intended as a threat.

> > OTOH, I can understand why a person
> > who has been forcibly silenced would react this way.
> 
> But I don't think the silencing is to blame either, as I guess we are
> well aware of the reason why he was forcibly silenced.

Blame is meaningless here.  Someone who's been forcibly silenced will try
to find other ways to speak out.  It's a very human behaviour, and wether
he's right or not about what he has to say doesn't change this.

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Marc Haber]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:51:32PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I
> would find offensive or rude.
> 
> I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward
> it, please say it now.  If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time,
> I will send it.
> 
> Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
> slashdot way".

If this is just the umpteenth re-hash of his well-known arguments
about his right to directly commit to d-i, I would prefer if he would
carry this to Slashdot. I strongly suspect that Slashdot wouldn't
carry the story anyway.

If it is something new, by all means, post it.

Your call.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Mike Bird]

On Friday 29 June 2007 06:51, Robert Millan wrote:
> Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him.
(snip)
> I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward
> it, please say it now.  If nobody objects after a reasonable period of
> time, I will send it.

Robert,

You are solely responsible for the content of the messages you post.
You must decide whether you will post any given message to the list.

Sven is banned from posting to the list.  He is not banned from asking
you to post material for him, and you are not banned from posting
messages quoting material from Sven.

Whether or not you are forwarding material from somebody who is banned
from posting to the list is irrelevant, provided you have that person's
permission to forward the material.

Stephen Frost wrote that you should recast Sven's material in your own
words.  Stephen is in error on this point.  Recasting is permissible
but it is certainly not required.

You are solely responsible for the content of the messages you post.
You must decide whether you will post any given message to the list.

--Mike Bird


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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Stephen Frost]

* Robert Millan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward
> it, please say it now.  If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time,
> I will send it.

I don't think you should forward it.

> Then again, if someone objects to it, just let me know and I won't send it.

I object.  We've wasted enough time with this already.  If it's actually
*important* (which I strongly doubt) and has some relevance (isn't about
Sven or the ban or things which are done and settled) then (if you're
willing to) recast it in your own words, as your own statement, and maybe
mention that you heard about it from Sven or whatever.  If you're not
willing to do that then I seriously doubt it passed either of the other
tests mentioned.

Thanks,

Stephen


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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Frans Pop]

On Friday 29 June 2007 15:51, Robert Millan wrote:
> Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods.
> I'm merely the messenger, so don't blame me.  OTOH, I can understand
> why a person who has been forcibly silenced would react this way.

I don't think you can say "I'm merely the messenger". If you decide to 
forward any message from anyone who is banned from a particular list, you 
assume responsibility for its content and the effects that that message 
will have.
Personally I do reserve the right to blame you for anything that _you_ 
send to the list, be it written by yourself or forwarded on request of 
somebody else (same goes for anybody else for that matter).

There is also no reason to accept the message as is. If there is anything 
in the message that you feel is unsuitable for the list, you should 
discuss that with Sven and, if at all possible, get him to change it, 
before forwarding it. Again, by forwarding it _you_ take responsibility 
for the content of the message.

Personally I would probably evaluate the message based on something like 
the following criteria, and decide based on that:
- does the message really add something to the discussion
- is the opinion of the sender really relevant for the project and its
  members, taking into account the status of the sender in the project
- is there anything in the message that is likely to offend members of
  the project or other people reading the mailing list
- is there anything in the message that could lead to a flamewar instead
  of a useful discussion

Personally I would prefer not to see any messages from Sven on the Debian 
mailing lists, but it is your call.

Cheers,
FJP


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Re: Bug#292330: use UTF-8 by default

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2007-06-18 13:26:08, schrieb Mike Hommey:
> Anyways, maybe the general problem is that there should be a way to
> generate locales at the user level (and store everything in ~/.locale,
> for example)

AFAIK does ~/locale already exist beside of ~/man.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Joey Schulze]

Robert Millan wrote:
> Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
> slashdot way".  Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly
> discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community.

It's also something we as a community cannot change anymore, and it's
also documented quite verbosely on our mailing lists.

Regards,

Joey

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:51:32PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> 
> Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
> slashdot way".  Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly
> discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community.

Update: Sven wants to make it clear that he doesn't intend to threaten, just
that in the current situation, he sees no way to pass important messages
otherwise, and given the discussion about the social committee he thinks
this deserved to be said.

Please excuse me if my message didn't represent this tone,

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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Guilherme de S. Pastore]

Em Sex, 2007-06-29 às 15:51 +0200, Robert Millan escreveu:
> The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I
> would find offensive or rude.

I personally think this has already been discussed ad nauseam for the
past months, without any indication that a reasonable outcome would be
possible - otherwise we wouldn't have got where we got, IMHO - and that
it is an unnecessary burden on the project's productivity since the last
settlements.

> I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward
> it, please say it now.  If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time,
> I will send it.

IIRC, Sven was banned from the lists to prevent the flood due to his,
let's say, awkward method of debating and getting what he wants, that
is, to avoid the flood, not as means of censoring his ideas or anything.
Hence, I don't think forwarding one message contradicts the ban.

Up to this point, my statements just mean I would not forward the
message myself, not that I strongly object to it being forwarded.
However...

> Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
> slashdot way".  Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly
> discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community.

I'm sorry, but in my dictionary that translates as blackmail. *THAT* I
don't think the Debian Project or any of its members should accept. If
he is overly prejudicial or distorts the facts in public, we might just
as well respond to them, either with words or with actions. It's surely
a lot of work and headache, but I think it's better than accepting these
threats.

> Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods.  I'm
> merely the messenger, so don't blame me.  OTOH, I can understand why a person
> who has been forcibly silenced would react this way.

But I don't think the silencing is to blame either, as I guess we are
well aware of the reason why he was forcibly silenced.

Regards,

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Guilherme de S. Pastore
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: message from Sven Luther

[Anthony Towns]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2007 at 03:51:32PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> I don't personaly think being publicly
> discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community.

Being publicly discreditted for our mistakes seems like exactly the
right thing to happen to me, actually. Helps discourage us from making
mistakes in future, helps other people avoid making the same mistakes,
helps people understand how Debian works.

That's why we have a publically available BTS, do our development in
public, try to avoid using private lists, etc, after all...

Cheers,
aj



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message from Sven Luther

[Robert Millan]

Sven Luther requested me to forward a message to this list for him.

The message is political in nature, but its tone is not something that I
would find offensive or rude.

I'm aware that Sven is banned, so if someone thinks I should not forward
it, please say it now.  If nobody objects after a reasonable period of time,
I will send it.

Sven also told me that if nobody will forward it, he will "make it by the
slashdot way".  Whatever that means, I don't personaly think being publicly
discredited by our mistakes is something we want as a community.

Please note that this message doesn't imply agreement with his methods.  I'm
merely the messenger, so don't blame me.  OTOH, I can understand why a person
who has been forcibly silenced would react this way.

Then again, if someone objects to it, just let me know and I won't send it.

Thanks

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Robert Millan

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for spam harvesters.  Writing to it will get you added to my black list.


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Re: Cancellazione Domanda

[Guilherme de S. Pastore]

debian-project: telling him that changing the archives won't help, as
hundreds of persons got the message at the time and it has already been
archived at other places, and that an e-mail address change is not a
reason to modify the archives, which, in principle, we do not change.

Em Sex, 2007-06-29 às 10:56 +0200, Vincenzo Manzi escreveu:
> Possibile che abbia segnalato già numerose volte che vorrei
> fossero cancellati i seguenti 2 messaggi
> 
> lists.debian.org/debian-user/2001/07/msg02632.html
> lists.debian.org/debian-user/2001/07/msg02621.html 
> 
> e nessuno possa far nulla?

Scusa, ma non possiamo "cancellare" messaggi che furono ricevuti da
centinaia di persone un giorno molti anni fa, e che sono stati
archiviati in molti altri luoghi. L'unica cosa che si potrebbe fare
tecnicamente è la rimozione dei messaggi dall'archivo, ma neanche questo
possiamo fare perché i archivi sono, in principio, la storia del
progetto, e non li rimuoviamo senza buon motivo.

> Vi chiedo di cancellarli perchè la mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> non è nemmeno più la mia.

Purtroppo non è una ragione per modificare gli archivi. L'indirizzi di
e-mail cambiano, ma questo non cambia il fatto di che hai scritto quei
messaggi dal indirizzo antico.

Grazie,

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Cancellazione Domanda

[MJ Ray]

Luca Brivio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (He says to have already requested the removal of two emails from the 
> official 
> archive, sent with two different address (one is arguably his old address, 
> the other isn't), both of which are different from his current email address, 
> and makes again that request, claiming that a fourth address isn't currently 
> his.)
>
> (I don't now how to answer anyway.)

I doubt that they will remove it - they are items of historical
record, at least one was replied to and I can't see how to tell
whether this request is really from [EMAIL PROTECTED] anyway.

See also http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/disclaimer

Hope that helps,
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Re: Cancellazione Domanda

[Frans Pop]

On Friday 29 June 2007 14:18, Luca Brivio wrote:
> (He says to have already requested the removal of two emails from the
> official archive, sent with two different address (one is arguably his
> old address, the other isn't), both of which are different from his
> current email address, and makes again that request, claiming that a
> fourth address isn't currently his.)
>
> (I don't now how to answer anyway.)

The answer is that in principle we do not remove any posts from our 
archives. And that even if we did, it would not help as copies of our 
archives are available in several different places.


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Re: Cancellazione Domanda

[Luca Brivio]

Vincenzo Manzi ha scritto:
> Possibile che abbia segnalato già numerose volte che vorrei
> fossero cancellati i seguenti 2 messaggi
>
> lists.debian.org/debian-user/2001/07/msg02632.html
> lists.debian.org/debian-user/2001/07/msg02621.html
>
> e nessuno possa far nulla?
> Vi chiedo di cancellarli perchè la mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> non è nemmeno più la mia.

(He says to have already requested the removal of two emails from the official 
archive, sent with two different address (one is arguably his old address, 
the other isn't), both of which are different from his current email address, 
and makes again that request, claiming that a fourth address isn't currently 
his.)

(I don't now how to answer anyway.)

--
Luca Brivio

Cancellazione Domanda

[Vincenzo Manzi]

Possibile che abbia segnalato già numerose volte che vorrei
fossero cancellati i seguenti 2 messaggi

lists.debian.org/debian-user/2001/07/msg02632.html
lists.debian.org/debian-user/2001/07/msg02621.html

e nessuno possa far nulla?
Vi chiedo di cancellarli perchè la mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
non è nemmeno più la mia.

Grazie

Re: Further draft Social Committee text

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007, Raphael Hertzog wrote:


You really don't want to have 10 votes in parallel... replying 10 times to
10 mails, possibly typing the GPG passphrase several times.


Yes, this is a real drawback of this procedure.  I think my very personal
way to go with this to vote only against those people I would think that
should leave their seat in the SC and just do not vote pro at all.  I'm
aware that this would not work if everybody would behave equally because
very view votes against a member could remove it from the SC.  I have no
idea whether we should adapt the rules to the lazyness I expressed above:
If there are a number of "No" against one member of the SC that exceedes
a certain quorum this seat has to be replaced.


You might tell it's only a "technical problem" in devotee, but until you
fix devotee to handle several ballots in the same mail, I won't endorse
this choice. For me concorcet is perfectly able to sort out those have
been ranked above NOTA from those who have been ranked below NOTA. I
really don't see the problem.


I personally could also live with that, but as I said I have the feeling
(note "feeling" is not based on experience or facts I have) that it is not
as effective to replace a member.

Kind regards

Andreas.

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